real world accounting

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Ah, okay. I found your sentence difficult to parse, but now I get it. You are saying "if someone finds waste there must be some." This fails to explain why, before anyone looks, you are assuming the waste exists and it is scandalously bad.

Are you kidding? There has to be waste, this country is rich. If the method works (in places) and the technology is available, what am I to assume, that the teachers are no good? I assume it has to be in how they spend the money, and/or on what.

How about "Seven Minutes in Heaven", then?

It happened. About a year or two ago. NJIT provided someone who had moved to PA, a limo service.

It seemed the most likely scenario was a group of students in class. That's how I read it.

So. You have to know that that is not the only scenario no matter how much you "reason" it to be.

I have no particular reason to "want" to believe anything- my position that your hypothetical is pure fantasy is unchanged no matter what role your Miss Maple might possibly be filling. If you want her to be the prinicpal, fine- replace "teacher" in my post with "principal". Or "janitor", "lunch lady", or any other that suits you. Don't quibble over semantics.

I can if you try and make an obvious light hearted example real.

Show me any real world instance of any school official or employee recieving or clearly benefiting from obvious fraud or extravagance similar to that which you postulated.

Again, you must be kidding. You know that special privilege is out of control. People in high position often "decorate" their surroundings with their status. Just because it is often legal, does not make it any less waste. Perhaps finding waste will be the next thread. Thanks.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Bad idea. Government accounting ("fund accounting") is generally not taught until college. Standard "real world" accounting you speak of is bookkeping and (very) light auditing and would not fit at all with how governments - schools included - manage money. The time and expense required to educate the kids just to be able to perform this task would far outweigh the benefit.

(For what its worth, I am a CPA, CMA, MBA)

I can't understand that, but i'm not saying accounting is not complex. At first glance it seems to require only basic math, and keeping track of the numbers. Anyway, I hated it, and would not wish it on anyone. I think the impact of students knowing certain numbers though, could help some adults remember their obligation to do right by them. And even if nothing is done about the situation in question, Children would grow up knowing.

 

[drkitten]

At first glance it seems to require only basic math, and keeping track of the numbers.

Well, naturally, we should rely on your surface impressions and not on the experiences of someone who has been working in the industry for years.

That seems to be a consistent ability of yours, LOL. You're so intuitive; you can leap right into total mastery of a subject, whether you know anything about it or not. Why, I'll bet the local hospital just loves it when you tell them what mixture of anaesthetic to use in surgery, and the police love it when you solve crimes for them from your armchair without even looking at the evidence.

I think I also figured out Bush's source for the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. He just asked you, and at first glance it seemed that they had them, right?

 

[TriangleMan]

Bad idea. Government accounting ("fund accounting") is generally not taught until college. Standard "real world" accounting you speak of is bookkeping and (very) light auditing and would not fit at all with how governments - schools included - manage money. The time and expense required to educate the kids just to be able to perform this task would far outweigh the benefit.

Seconded. (and I'm an accountant as well)

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

I can't understand that, but i'm not saying accounting is not complex. At first glance it seems to require only basic math, and keeping track of the numbers. Anyway, I hated it, and would not wish it on anyone. I think the impact of students knowing certain numbers though, could help some adults remember their obligation to do right by them. And even if nothing is done about the situation in question, Children would grow up knowing.

Well, naturally, we should rely on your surface impressions and not on the experiences of someone who has been working in the industry for years.

Does that paragraph sound like I think I am a master of anything? But if you only used the underlined part, it does. Do you see how you created the impression you wanted? I am not mad at you though. But do you see how some professionals can close their mind?

That seems to be a consistent ability of yours, LOL. You're so intuitive; you can leap right into total mastery of a subject, whether you know anything about it or not. Why, I'll bet the local hospital just loves it when you tell them what mixture of anaesthetic to use in surgery, and the police love it when you solve crimes for them from your armchair without even looking at the evidence.

I think I also figured out Bush's source for the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. He just asked you, and at first glance it seemed that they had them, right?

And see how far you ran with it? It doesn't look good, but if that's what you want to do.

 

[Piscivore]

Are you kidding? There has to be waste, this country is rich.

It would seem to me that a country or economy that suffers a great deal of waste could not be "rich", do you have any evidence for this assumption?

If the method works (in places) and the technology is available, what am I to assume, that the teachers are no good? I assume it has to be in how they spend the money, and/or on what.

You are assuming that there is a hemorrhage of money from our school systems without evidence. Trying to come up with any hypothesis for a cause of problem you do not have any evidence for besides you feelings or assumption is navel-gazing.

It happened. About a year or two ago. NJIT provided someone who had moved to PA, a limo service.

Do you have a cite for the incident, or should we just take your word for it?

Even if this were true, do you have any evidence this proves a larger, endemic problem and isn't just an isolated lapse in judgment?

So. You have to know that that is not the only scenario no matter how much you "reason" it to be.

You outlined the scenario, I fail to see how changing the specific role of the person referenced alters it at all.

I can if you try and make an obvious light hearted example real.

I was not obviously lighthearted to me, not when you seem to be offering it as an example of the "obvious" fiscal mismanagement you say permeates the country's school systems.

Again, you must be kidding. You know that special privilege is out of control.

No, I don't know that. One or two abuses of authority do not a epidemic make. Show me the teachers living in houses fit for "Cribs", the school administrators dripping with bling. All the ones I know are underpaid and overworked.

People in high position often "decorate" their surroundings with their status.

Who are these "people in high position" in the school system, in your opinion?

Just because it is often legal, does not make it any less waste.

So if a teacher has a car or a home nicer than you think they ought to have their salary is "obviously" too high?

 

[NobbyNobbs]

It happened. About a year or two ago. NJIT provided someone who had moved to PA, a limo service.

You know, the problem here may just be a matter of semantics. "Limo service" does not equate to "Limousine".

Many airports offer limo service, to get you to your hotel. What shows up to transport you is, more often than not, a van, with at least 6 other people sharing it. If this is the case, and the school district were helping to subsidize a van pool to get quality employees to work, I really wouldn't have much of a problem with it.

Of course, without providing us with a cite, it's hard to tell.

 

[blutoski]

How about letting the many school accounting classes, which have to play with numbers anyway, get real world experience by "running the numbers" of their local school, and government budgets? This will help them learn how they both work, how much they cost, and where the money comes from. Can you think of anything wrong with having students use real numbers? Can you think of any advantages?

They do use real numbers. The idea, however, is to let them practice things they are likely to be doing in real life, so their time is not wasted in fantasyland.

Managing a school district is a fulltime job for a team of staff. Amortization, &c. Government is in the unconventional position of planning for timeframes that span generations, including concerns about capital depreciation, demographic forecasting, &c. Are these kids in the calculus class, now? Students will be overwhelmed with things that they probably won't use for the forseeable future. If they want to get involved in government budgeting, there are courses for that that require prerequisites that they can complete.

In any case, this informaiton is publicly available, so there's nothing stopping them from viewing it, if they're interested.

In any case, it's more than dollars: the purpose of a school district is to achieve outcomes, which is a political decision made by the school boards, not a financial decision made by accountants.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

It would seem to me that a country or economy that suffers a great deal of waste could not be "rich", do you have any evidence for this assumption?

Are you saying the U.S. is not rich? Or are you saying that because of the waste, it is not rich? In any case, I am saying that it has I lot of waste, because it is that rich.

You are assuming that there is a hemorrhage of money from our school systems without evidence. Trying to come up with any hypothesis for a cause of problem you do not have any evidence for besides you feelings or assumption is navel-gazing.

No it isn't, it's rock throwing.

Do you have a cite for the incident, or should we just take your word for it?

You could take my word. Outright lying is damning, I have seen what has happenned in other threads. Lying to defend a point is a personal sign of trouble, and dumb, since what they type is being recorded on an international forum.

Even if this were true, do you have any evidence this proves a larger, endemic problem and isn't just an isolated lapse in judgment?

People steal, it has always been a problem.

No, I don't know that. One or two abuses of authority do not a epidemic make. Show me the teachers living in houses fit for "Cribs", the school administrators dripping with bling. All the ones I know are underpaid and overworked.

Waste is not always that visible. And I am not against teachers.

Who are these "people in high position" in the school system, in your opinion?

I have been trying to find a website that I seen on a bus, but have been unable to, I think it is teacher union abuse.com but it is not working. Anyway, I can save that for another thread.

 

[blutoski]

Are you kidding? There has to be waste, this country is rich. If the method works (in places) and the technology is available, what am I to assume, that the teachers are no good? I assume it has to be in how they spend the money, and/or on what.

You're getting close to the heart of the question. There are lots of factors, but probably the biggest predictor of a kid's educational success is his parents' support, followed by his peers' support.

Basically, there are better and worse districts, because there are better and worse neighbourhoods.

We all have examples of this: the Asian kid who moved here when he was nine, didn't speak a word of English, and five years later, he's the best student in his grade. The difference is in the kid's approach to learning: he's not rationalizing underperformance by saying the class should revolve around an interest in comic books.

Americans do quite poorly in comparison to many other countries in academic performance. There is no doubt that this is because of their cultural distinction. Their competitors are often outperforming on a significantly smaller per-student budget, sharing books, no access to computers or technology... The difference is that the kids are simply more motivated.

And there are some other things to learn at school, too: that the employment world is not going to capitulate to the employee's interests, that postponement of gratification can be a good investment in oneself, that there is value in deferring to an expert, how to work in social groups...

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

They do use real numbers. The idea, however, is to let them practice things they are likely to be doing in real life, so their time is not wasted in fantasyland.

They do the budget of fictional enitities anyway, why not real budgets?

Managing a school district is a fulltime job for a team of staff. Amortization, &c. Government is in the unconventional position of planning for timeframes that span generations, including concerns about capital depreciation, demographic forecasting, &c. Are these kids in the calculus class, now? Students will be overwhelmed with things that they probably won't use for the forseeable future.

How their government is run is in their future. And they gave me a square dancing class that I didn't ask for. Never found any use for it either.

In any case, this informaiton is publicly available, so there's nothing stopping them from viewing it, if they're interested.

Lets interest them. They don't aways know what they want.

In any case, it's more than dollars: the purpose of a school district is to achieve outcomes,

Some have plenty of dollars, and the outcome is less than desired. SAT scores in N.J. have fallen.

is a political decision made by the school boards, not a financial decision made by accountants.

accountants keep track.

 

[Loss Leader]

Um ...

I took accounting in my Public Administration graduate program and we used both real and fake numbers.

I can think of one reason to use fake data sets, though: The teacher can highlight specific problems and methods in accounting. By making everything very easy except the one concept or problem being learned, it allows students to concentrate on just that one item at a time.

Using only real data sets would not expose students to all the problems of accounting because any one corporation or municipality might not be experiencing every accounting problem simultaniously.

At the smae time, using only real data sets would force students to deal with many, many accounting problems all at once without having gained enough practice with each type of problem first. It would be like asking a person learning to fly to take off, fly and land all by himself on his first lesson. It would be like trying to teach addition by handing out calculus problems.

Real world data sets would only be useful, in my opinion, as final projects to demonstrate that the student has synthesised all the knowledge. And even then, there's no particular reason to force them to use real world problems.

 

[blutoski]

They do the budget of fictional enitities anyway, why not real budgets?

As pointed out, real budgets are exactly how the classes are run.

How their government is run is in their future.

Yes, but political awareness is not taught in an accounting class. The identification of 'waste' is a value judgement.

And they gave me a square dancing class that I didn't ask for. Never found any use for it either.

Square dancing is part of making students 'well rounded,' and taking all students into account. Not everybody has a mummy and daddy who will teach them to dance.

Lets interest them. They don't aways know what they want.

Which brings us back to square dancing, right?

Anyway: why *this* budget? Why not have them make an educated purchase based on price/performance comparison? Prioritizing a grocery list? Run through a typical household budget, or how to start a small business? Why something so disconnected from their lives?

Some have plenty of dollars, and the outcome is less than desired. SAT scores in N.J. have fallen.

Yeeesss, which was my point... outcomes are not all that sensitive to budgets, so analysis is not very fruitful. Parental engagement and student motivation for learning are the biggest guarantees of student success.

accountants keep track.

Yes, but your thesis is that we should determine which items are 'waste'. This is not something an accountant does.

What your'e asking is for accounting class to turn into a social studies or civics class. There is a class called 'civics,' which is about how the current students can enage in public participation when they reach the age of majority. In many school districts, it's a mandatory course.

In BC, the mandate of the Ministry of Education is this: "To prepare the next generation of citizens."

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Um ...

I took accounting in my Public Administration graduate program and we used both real and fake numbers.

Fine.

I can think of one reason to use fake data sets, though: The teacher can highlight specific problems and methods in accounting.
By making everything very easy except the one concept or problem being learned, it allows students to concentrate on just that one item at a time.

Fine, that comes in handy.

Using only real data sets would not expose students to all the problems of accounting because any one corporation or municipality might not be experiencing every accounting problem simultaniously.

No one said only, and no one said overwhelm them. I was talking about the impact of them "knowing" about some budgets.

At the smae time, using only real data sets would force students to deal with many, many accounting problems all at once without having gained enough practice with each type of problem first.
It would be like asking a person learning to fly to take off, fly and land all by himself on his first lesson. It would be like trying to teach addition by handing out calculus problems.

If it is presented that way. Don't do it like that.

Real world data sets would only be useful, in my opinion, as final projects to demonstrate that the student has synthesised all the knowledge. And even then, there's no particular reason to force them to use real world problems.

Don't force them, make it worth their while. And final projects are just fine with me. The impact that I would hope to add to the experience is "you payed what... why"? Later, as a final project before sending them out into the the world, require that they be registered, and cast a vote.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

As pointed out, real budgets are exactly how the classes are run.

Sometimes.

Yes, but political awareness is not taught in an accounting class.

The number part of it could be.

The identification of 'waste' is a value judgement.

Be bold enough to judge, you might be right. If you aren't, you learned something. Say you sorry.

Square dancing is part of making students 'well rounded,' and taking all students into account. Not everybody has a mummy and daddy who will teach them to dance.

Square dancing? I understand that you have to take the whole package, but package it for the city. That is, if the target lives in the city. I think "breakdancing" would have been the class, if dancing was the concern.

Anyway: why *this* budget? Why not have them make an educated purchase based on price/performance comparison?

That too.

Prioritizing a grocery list? Run through a typical household budget, or how to start a small business? Why something so disconnected from their lives?

Those are all fine... only, why not use their numbers to "fry" someone who needs it?

Yeeesss, which was my point... outcomes are not all that sensitive to budgets, so analysis is not very fruitful. Parental engagement and student motivation for learning are the biggest guarantees of student success.

They are, but we know that they are lacking in places-for a number of reasons. The OLPC program can help where it is.

Yes, but your thesis is that we should determine which items are 'waste'. This is not something an accountant does.

No, who else would understand the numbers?

What your'e asking is for accounting class to turn into a social studies or civics class. There is a class called 'civics,' which is about how the current students can enage in public participation when they reach the age of majority. In many school districts, it's a mandatory course.

No, just run the numbers of social conditions.

In BC, the mandate of the Ministry of Education is this: "To prepare the next generation of citizens."

It needs help, in a lot of areas.