Time to kick Iran

[Matteo Martini]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ywoLsATW9w&mode=related&search=

" Death to Isreal.. "
" Are they [ Israeli ] human beings? "
" A bunch of bloodthirsty barbarians "..
..and so on..

 

[gtc]

You are obviously kidding

Nope. He is not kidding.

The funniest part of Ion is that he actually thinks that he is cleverer than us.

 

[RandFan]

The fact that I sometimes engage in discussion regarding the morality of the behaviour of the US does not mean at all the I condone, or I think that other countries behave better than the US...

First off it is not "sometimes". I've been around the block a few times. I've been here for years and posted 20,000 times. I have a good idea when someone is obsessive about an issue. You my friend are obsessed more than a few if not many most with American policy and your posts typically have to do with criticism.

I thought I hade made it very clear in the past
Anyway, if you had that suspect, why not just ask me?

What people believe and what they are, are not always the same thing. I'm going to put more weight behind what you say than what you claim. I still have little doubt you have a healthy amount of negative bias toward America.

Still, I could be wrong and few here are more fair than myself. I apologize frequently and concede arguments to people I seriously don't like. If I think your actions worthy of merit I'll say so.

What disturbs me, is that, if I did not take on Ion on that particular matter, you maybe would have thought that I share many of his views, which I do not

There is no need to be disturbed. This is just an Internet forum. I'm just some anonymous guy.

Look, we have a few seriously deluded people here. I'm not kidding. I could be one of them. If that disturbs you then you likely shouldn't be here. FTR, I'm not one of them.

Why do I have to take on other posters to show that my position is not like theirs?

• You don't.
• I never, ever, thought your position was identical to Ion's. That's not even the point.
• By far most of my favorite posters (and some of my closest friends) on this forum are people who I don't agree with me politically. When it comes to the individual, I don't give a damn about positions. I care about intellectual honesty and logically valid argument.
• Your willingness to debate Ion demonstrated to me that you are capable of both. Not perfect but then none of us are.

Now, chill out, it's really not that big of a deal.

 

[Matteo Martini]

Now, chill out, it's really not that big of a deal.

OK

 

[Matteo Martini]

First off it is not "sometimes". I've been around the block a few times. I've been here for years and posted 20,000 times. I have a good idea when someone is obsessive about an issue. You my friend are obsessed more than a few if not many most with American policy and your posts typically have to do with criticism.

This is because many people here ( mostly, but not only ) Americans are unwilling to see, in my personal opinion " the other side of the story "

What people believe and what they are, are not always the same thing. I'm going to put more weight behind what you say than what you claim. I still have little doubt you have a healthy amount of negative bias toward America.

Mm..
I think they are the biggest and stronger democracy in the world and an engine which propels technological progess all over the world.
But I also think the US are responsible of many crimes, in the past..

There is no need to be disturbed. This is just an Internet forum. I'm just some anonymous guy.

I am not

[*]I never, ever, thought your position was identical to Ion's. That's not even the point.

I do sometimes think that Oliver and even Ion have some good shots.
BTW, I also disagree with them many times, but I do think it is interesting to listen to them, a long as listening to you and many others..

 

[RandFan]

This is because many people here ( mostly, but not only ) Americans are unwilling to see, in my personal opinion " the other side of the story "

How do you come up with "mostly"? It sounds like confirmation bias to me. I'll confess you could use the same complaint against me.

Mm..
I think they are the biggest and stronger democracy in the world and an engine which propels technological progess all over the world.
But I also think the US are responsible of many crimes, in the past..

Yes, we are guilty of crimes. But those should be put into prespective. It's a bit of a broad brush to simply declare us guilty of crimes. What nations are not guilty of crimes?

I understand your point. I just want you to understand that there is much good about America also and that there is much bad about the rest of the world.

Following WWII America had the bomb (atomic) and we chose NOT to behave like the Soviets. We wanted countries to be Democratic. We worked hard to liberate Germany and we did not want to control West Germany the way the Soviets controled East Germany and so many other European Nations. America has believed that the best thing for America are healthy Democracies and so we have tried to see to it that Nations became Democratic. We made many mistakes trying to do that. We have commited crimes believing the ends justified the means.

By all means, critisize but keep an open perspective. That's all I ask.

Thanks,

RandFan

I am not

I hate to be the one to break the news to you.

I do sometimes think that Oliver and even Ion have some good shots.
BTW, I also disagree with them many times, but I do think it is interesting to listen to them, a long as listening to you and many others..

Oliver, in his heart, is a good guy. He has a lot of good intention. He just has a blind spot and is incapable of using critical thinking when it comes to his point of view.

Ion cares about equality and fairness for those who are disenfranchised and I think he also honestly cares about those who have no say in the political machinations of political powers but who suffer and die as a result of the war these armchair warriors carry out. He is passionate about these things and I applaud him for that. However his hatred of America blinds him and he too is incapable of critical thinking when it comes to his world view.

In short, I agree with you.

 

[Matteo Martini]

Yes, we are guilty of crimes. But those should be put into prespective. It's a bit of a broad brush to simply declare us guilty of crimes. What nations are not guilty of crimes?

Brazil?

I understand your point. I just want you to understand that there is much good about America also and that there is much bad about the rest of the world.

You do not need to tell me this.
Where do you think I live?
I have lived in the US, I have relatives living in the US, I have American friends, and had American girlfriends. I have been to American Universities.
Why do you need to point out this?

Following WWII America had the bomb (atomic) and we chose NOT to behave like the Soviets. We wanted countries to be Democratic. We worked hard to liberate Germany and we did not want to control West Germany the way the Soviets controled East Germany and so many other European Nations. America has believed that the best thing for America are healthy Democracies and so we have tried to see to it that Nations became Democratic.

Yes, of course.
We Italian have been lucky to be on the left part of the iron curtain.

We made many mistakes trying to do that. We have commited crimes believing the ends justified the means.

Mmmm..
I think in this point I have to disagree with you.
The mistakes were not just " mistakes ", were a symptom of a more profound mistake, which is why I keep pounding on some news.
We will talk about this later

By all means, critisize but keep an open perspective. That's all I ask.

Thanks,

RandFan

I hate to be the one to break the news to you.

Oliver, in his heart, is a good guy. He has a lot of good intention. He just has a blind spot and is incapable of using critical thinking when it comes to his point of view.

That is not the point.
Oiliver also said that OBL is a " freedom fighter ", a notion that, I would say it is obvious to say, I absolutely disagree with.
But has been very useful to tell me about the fact that many guys in the Bush administration knew that Saddam had no WMD before 9/11, something I did not know.
This is why I read his posts with attention, I do not basically care about hsi general opinions

Ion cares about equality and fairness for those who are disenfranchised and I think he also honestly cares about those who have no say in the political machinations of political powers but who suffer and die as a result of the war these armchair warriors carry out. He is passionate about these things and I applaud him for that. However his hatred of America blinds him and he too is incapable of critical thinking when it comes to his world view.

Sometimes, I wonder if he does ot play a part, here..
If you know what I mean..

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Should not the main reason behind not allowing Iran to have nukes is the chance that it may loose posession of nuclear weapons if the country destabilises and the sunnis take over?

Is this a not-impossible outcome?

 

[Flo]

Should not the main reason behind not allowing Iran to have nukes is the chance that it may destabalise if the country destabilises and the sunnis take over?

Is this a not-impossible outcome?

The vast majority of Iran is shiite, I don't see much risk of a sunni domination. However, the risk of destabilisation of the whole region is a real possibility, given the rivality between shiite and sunnis countries, mostly Saudi Arabia, on issues like who controls Mecca. I would also expect the situation in Afghanistan (large shiite minorities) and Pakistan (that has nukes and views over Afghanistan) to play a role.

 

[Matteo Martini]

Should not the main reason behind not allowing Iran to have nukes is the chance that it may loose posession of nuclear weapons if the country destabilises and the sunnis take over?

Is this a not-impossible outcome?

Even if they do not lose possession this way, somebody in the government could be crazy enough to let some terrorist group get some nuke.
Another possibility, is that the current government could use nuclear power as a deterrent.
In short, I would not feel easy at all to have such a government in such a nation with nuclear power, to say the least

 

[Undesired Walrus]

And It's all about power really in Iran isn't it?

It's not really... religion is it?... because, why else are they funding Sunni militants if they are not determined to stopping America from retaining control in Iraq?

 

[RandFan]

Brazil?

I don't see a smilie but I assume this is a joke, right?

Why do you need to point out this?

Because there is often a profound lack of proportionality and objectivity in your posts.

The mistakes were not just " mistakes ", were a symptom of a more profound mistake, which is why I keep pounding on some news.
We will talk about this later

Yes, here is where I think you reveal your bias.

America is a Democracy. Unlike many nations, American's can and do vote out corrupt politicians. We have a seperation of powers and the system is largely self correcting. Nixon left office in disgrace. Bush has very low approval numbers and congress just switched from Republican to Democrat.

Power corrupts. The founders of our nation knew this. They knew that they could't prevent abuse. That is pie in the sky. What they wanted was a system that would distribute power and be self correcting. So they implimented a system that would, in their minds best do that.

The word mistake can be seen as a euphamism so if you are critising me about that then fine. That is a fair critisism. However, if you think that there is an inherent problem with the USA that makes us worse than other nations (other than our size) then I can't agree.

That is not the point.

It's my point.

But has been very useful to tell me about the fact that many guys in the Bush administration knew that Saddam had no WMD before 9/11, something I did not know.

This really isn't true. Absolute knowledge of a regime that was as involved in secrecy as Iraq under Saddam just wasn't possible. It's your willingness to so easily accept such demonstrable falsehoods and absurdities that bothers me. This is NOT critical thinking.

There were many guys in the Bush administration that knew that there was solid evidence that pointed to the fact that Saddam had no WMD.

It may seem subtle but it is a critical distinction. Couple that with the fact that many people relied on different evidence and didn't use critical thinking and were certain that there WAS WMD and you realize why Oliver's claim's are CT.

This is why I read his posts with attention, I do not basically care about hsi general opinions

I can only ask you to employ a little critical thinking when reading Oliver's posts.

Sometimes, I wonder if he does ot play a part, here..
If you know what I mean..

Who am I to judge?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Sometimes, I wonder if he does ot play a part, here..
If you know what I mean..

All the internet's a stage, and all the forum posters merely players.

The play's the thing.

Shakespeare rocks, particularly when posted out of context.

"Many's the good hanging prevented a bad marriage."

DR

 

[Correa Neto]

Brazil?

...snip...

Sorry for the OT interruption...

We're not innocent, unfortunately.

Google for any combination of Triple Alliance, war and Paraguay.

And we also have our share of millitary dictatorships and social injustices.

Thank you for the attention, please return to your regular schedule.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Sorry for the OT interruption...

We're not innocent, unfortunately.

Google for any combination of Triple Alliance, war and Paraguay.

And we also have our share of millitary dictatorships and social injustices.

Thank you for the attention, please return to your regular schedule.

Say what you like about Brazil, I learned in fourth grade that you guys gave the world rubber.

Yay Brazil!

DR

 

[Ion]

To:

You are obviously kidding

and to:

Nope. He is not kidding.

The funniest part of Ion is that he actually thinks that he is cleverer than us.

You mean that Texas Instruments doesn't employ in San Diego hundreds of Electrical Engineers educated in Socialist France and Europe?

Ditto for Motorola in San Diego, 3Com, Cisco?

And so on.

I know better than you, including the reason for that.
(like the European Engineering level with its superior mathematics;
for example the level in the French-based Fast Fourier Transforms, without which no digital field ever exists and the Americans would still be dangling from trees holding bananas and chanting praise to their 'God' and Capitalism)

You are clueless, both of you, one Italian, and a gtc retard from faith-based primitive U.S..

 

[WildCat]

The high standards of these immigrants point to where these high standards are made.
In Socialist Europe.

Is this the same place that made the Yugo? High standards indeed!

 

[Ion]

Is this the same place that made the Yugo? High standards indeed!

Is Yugo made in Socialist France, or in Sweden, or Norway, DumbCat?

Come on, DumbCat from DumbChicago, name to me one American mathematician who appears in Engineering books.

One.

I fail to see one American mathematician who appears in Electrical Engineering books.
Don't bother me with garbage non-mathematician businessman Edison and such, there is not one American mathematician in Engineering books.

Because from France, I name mathematicians Fourier, Le Galois, d'Alembert, Cauchy, Descartes, Poincare, Fourmi, Fermat, La Place, l'Hopital in Engineering books.

Dumb American...

Without these French mathematicians you would still be dangling from trees, over there, in Chicago.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Is this the same place that made the Yugo? High standards indeed!

To be fair, it made the Renault Le Car. Depending upon which Europe, it also made some sweet Alfa Romeo Spiders that drive well but break down frequently, and Volkswagen Beetles that were scintillating examples excellence in design and evolutionary design.

The Yugo was from the People's skunks works in a Communistic nation, so it wasn't a fair comparison. They didn't do "customer service" since behind the Iron Curtain, the dealer deals you!

DR

 

[RandFan]

Sorry for the OT interruption...

We're not innocent, unfortunately.

Google for any combination of Triple Alliance, war and Paraguay.

And we also have our share of millitary dictatorships and social injustices.

Thank you for the attention, please return to your regular schedule.

Let's face it, Brazil is populated with humans. If you got humans you've got problems.

That said, I would love to get down there around march for a little celebration I've heard about. They have a tranquil parade through a bucolic vilage known as Rio de Janeiro.