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10 story hole in WTC 7

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MaGZ said:
If you believe they experienced the explosion in WTC 7 at the time WTC 1 collapsed then they must have gotten to WTC 7 just after the collapse of WTC 2 (30 minutes before the collapse of WTC 1).

The only thing that makes sense is they arrived at WTC 7 just after the crash of the first plane. They experienced the missile strike at WTC 7 at 9:03. Later they were rescued around 10:30 when WTC 1 collapsed.
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That doesn't make any bit of sense, MaGZ. As usual.
 
My bad, typo. The horizontal velocity component I calculated was 30 MPH not 40 MPH as in my posts above.

Does that agree with your physicist and architect's calculation Chris?

This is calculated by taking a fall from 900 feet to ground. That would take 7.5 seconds. In that 7.5 seconds it also has to reach WTC 7 which I took to be 325 feet from WTC 1.
325/7.5 = 43.3 f/s = 29.54 MPH horizontal component of velocity

The vertical velocity would be 7.5(32) = 240 f/s = 163.6 MPH
 
Let's play with the numbers a bit.
If the debris that hit WTC 7 fell from not 900 feet but 1000 feet then it would have been moving 28 MPH (nominally northward)

If it fell from 1000 feet and impacted WTC 7 at the 10th floor(approx 120 feet from the ground) then it did so with a horizontal velocity of 43 MPH

If it fell from 900 feet and hit WTC 7 120 feet up then it was travelling at 46.5 MPH.

At any rate we have the dense debris the hit WTC 7 travelling at 28 - 47 MPH horizontally and with a vertical velocity of 150 - 165 MPH.
Note though, that the slower horizontal velocity requires a longer vertical distance and thus a greater vertical component of velocity.

Let's look at the velocity along the line of travel.

1) If it fell from 900 feet and hit at 120 ft agl then it was moving 46.5 MPH horz. and 150 MPH vert. The velocity along the line of travel then is 157 MPH

2) If it fell from 1000 feet and impacted at 120 ft agl then it was moving at 43 MPH horz. and 160 MPH vert for a velocity along the line of travel, when it hit WTC 7, of 165 MPH.

3) For debris that just hit the bottom of WTC 7 (ie. it fell to ground level) then if it fell from 900 feet up tower #1 it had a horz. velocity of 43 MPH and a vert. velocity of 166 MPH for basically the same velocity along the line of travel as in 2)

3) From 1000 feet up WTC 1 to ground level at the face of WTC 7
41 MPH horz.
172 MPH vert
177 MPH along the line of travel.

The time of fall is between 7 and 8 seconds. In other words most of any dense debris that hit WTC 7 would do so within a span of about 1 second.

So the range of velocities along the line of travel of dense debris hitting WTC 7 would be 157 MPH to 177 MPH for debris that hit between the ground level and the 10th floor.

Oh but wait, the debris that took out the SW corner actually hit about 15 stories up meaning that it was travelling even slower and still had enough KE to gouge out one of the strongest columns in the structure (the corner column).

We also know that large debris did indeed travel further than the distance from WTC 7 to WTC 1 as evidenced by the debris that hit WFC 3.

Then there is long gash that is seen in some photos that is east of the SW corner and on the south face.

Seems patently obvious that the debris certainly was capable of causing major structural damage.

________________________________________________________________

Chris, you have not answered the question as to what was occuring to create a 'bulge' in WTC 7 nor what the result of this would be on the core columns on the west end of the building near the stairwell and the elevator shafts in question.
 
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Cold Shower

jaydeehess said:
The stairwell is on the west side of the building, we know that as well do we not?

Barry Jennings was in the east stairwell. Dylan Avery confimed this to me in a private email.

I think it is time to throw some cold water into this discussion. A dose of the TRUTH may do you folks some good.

NIST has misrepresented Barry Jenning's testimony regarding the explosion in the WTC 7 stairwell.

Here is more proof that Barry Jennings is telling the truth in his interview with Dylan Avery:

The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) has misrepresented the testimony of Barry Jennings, who heard and felt an explosion inside of WTC-7 on the morning of 9/11. This is an attempt to cover up arson.

Barry Jennings testified:

“When we reached the 6th floor, the landing that we were standing on gave way, there was an explosion and the landing gave way.”

Witness testimony transcribed:

http://twilightpines.com//index.php?...13&Item id=67

http://twilightpines.com//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=113&Itemid=67

The witness was also seen on TV on the day of 9/11, saying; “Big Explosion. It blew us back into the 8th floor.”

Source:

http://noonehastodie.blogspot.com/20...own-wtc-7.html

http://noonehastodie.blogspot.com/

Since the fire alarm system in WTC 7 had been turned off at 6:47 A.M. that morning, we don’t know the exact time of the explosion; but the witness specifically stated that the explosion occurred before either Twin Tower collapse, when he said:

“As I told you earlier, both buildings were still standing. Because I looked to, I looked one way, looked the other way, there’s nothing there. When I got to the 6th floor before all this happened, I got to the 6th floor, there was an explosion, that’s what forced us back to the 8th floor, both buildings were still standing.”

This explosion was not caused by debris from the collapse of either tower because the locations of both stairwells inside of WTC 7 were not in the area of debris damage, according to NIST diagrams.

Both stairwells were along the north edge of the WTC 7 core in the north half of the building, but all the debris damage hit the south face of WTC 7. WTC 7 was 355 feet from the North Tower, at its closest point, with WTC 6 in between.

Also, core columns # 74 and # 75 would have blocked the advance of any debris that might have been headed for the stairwell closest to the area where possible debris damage may have occurred.

Sources:

Location of WTC 7 stairwells (page L-6):

http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_.../appendixl.pdf

Location of WTC 7 debris damage (page L-22):

Fire Alarm turned off:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/a647alarmnoton

Yet NIST omits the word “explosion” and writes that the collapse of WTC 1 caused the events described by Barry Jennings:

“The collapse of WTC 1 also appears to be responsible for starting fires inside WTC 7. With the collapse of the two towers, a New York City employee and a WTC 7 building staff person became trapped inside of WTC 7. The two had gone to the OEM center on the 23rd floor and found no one there. As they went to get into an elevator to go downstairs the lights inside of WTC 7 flickered as WTC 2 collapsed. At this point, the elevator they were attempting to catch no longer worked, so they started down the staircase. When they got to the 6th floor, WTC 1 collapsed, the lights went out in the staircase, the sprinklers came on briefly, and the staircase filled with smoke and debris. The two men went back to the 8th floor broke out a window and called for help.”

Source (page 109 of report):

http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-8.pdf

The footnote for this source is #381:WTC 7 Interviews 2041604 and 1041704, spring 2004.

This refers to Barry Jennings above and the other witness is Mike Hess, who was the NYC corporation counsel and a close associate of Rudy Giuliani.

It looks like Mike Hess and NIST have a WTC 7 problem.

This analysis effectively refutes objections raised on the JREF forums.

The JREF people are the most intelligent and best informed critics of the 9/11 Truth movement. Unlike Popular Mechanics, Fox News, History Channel and the Screw Loose Change blog, JREF raises critical issues regarding the truth about really happened on the fateful day of 9/11. No member of the 9/11 Truth movement should accept their own arguments as true, without a careful study of the counter-arguments raised by JREF.

I call on NIST scientists to recognize that the fires in WTC 7 were started intentionally and the collapse of the building was an obvious controlled demolition.

Watch WTC 7 fall down:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...21899003&hl=en

Map of WTC building locations:

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch1.pdf

It should be noted that the 6th floor of the east stairwell is very close to the area where NIST says a CRITICAL FAILURE occurred that brought down WTC 7.

Now we know what started the process of bringing down WTC 7; a huge explosion.

A similar version of this post with details hashed out can be found here:

http://www.randi.org/forumlive/showthread.php?t=85234&page=6
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“As I told you earlier, both buildings were still standing. Because I looked to, I looked one way, looked the other way, there’s nothing there. When I got to the 6th floor before all this happened, I got to the 6th floor, there was an explosion, that’s what forced us back to the 8th floor, both buildings were still standing.”
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When did he "look one way" and then look "the other way"? While on the 23rd floor or the 8th? It is not clear in the statement. If he is refering in this paragraph to being on the 23rd floor then he is still refering to that when he says later that the buildings were standing.

What time was the OEM evacuated?
 
I had thought that we had decided that they were in the east stairwell but recently Christopher 7 placed them in the west end.

west or east the structure took an extreme insult when the SW corner was gouged out a couple of dozen feet deep and for more than a dozen floors and photos that show the other multistorey gouge further east indicate another heavy shock to the structure, each of which would occur within a second or two at most. Such a shock could easily cause damage to non-proximate structural components including the stairwell supports. As I have pointed out, a bird (last one was a crow IIRC) hitting my front window shakes the entire house without breaking the window.
 
There were people in the lobby of WTC 7 when WTC 2 came down. Their statements say that the glass in the lobby shattered (one man describes having it embedded in his back as they exit through a door to the loading dock) and thick choking dust came in through the broken windows. they do not mention the building being rocked by any explosions prior to the collapse of WTC 2.

yet according the interpretation of Jennings statements WTC 2 was still standing when he got to the 6th floor. Does he ever mention WTC 2 coming down? WTC 1? Surely he and Hess did not simply go back and wait in the hall for 1 1/2 hours nor notice when the two towers did fall. In any case it is quite obvious that the towers were NOT standing when they were rescued and that the destroyed lobby was then not neccessarily the result of any explosion that no one else noticed occurring before either tower collapsed
 
jaydeehess said:
When did he "look one way" and then look "the other way"? While on the 23rd floor or the 8th? It is not clear in the statement. If he is refering in this paragraph to being on the 23rd floor then he is still refering to that when he says later that the buildings were standing.

What time was the OEM evacuated?
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On the 8th floor.

Barry said;

“As I told you earlier, both buildings were still standing. Because I looked to, I looked one way, looked the other way, there’s nothing there.

When I got to the 6th floor before all this happened, I got to the 6th floor, there was an explosion, that’s what forced us back to the 8th floor, both buildings were still standing.”

http://twilightpines.com//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=113&Itemid=67

Dylan Avery, Jason Bermas, and Alex Jones, who have all heard the entire 20 minute interview, have confirmed this as well.

You would have to listen through these links, which i have done;

http://www.prisonplanet.com/audio/190607clips2.mp3

http://69.80.230.7/Archives2/Jun2007/gwrpt1erT/0619071.mp3

http://69.80.230.7/Archives2/Jun2007/gwrpt1erT/0619072.mp3
 
jaydeehess said:
There were people in the lobby of WTC 7 when WTC 2 came down. Their statements say that the glass in the lobby shattered (one man describes having it embedded in his back as they exit through a door to the loading dock) and thick choking dust came in through the broken windows. they do not mention the building being rocked by any explosions prior to the collapse of WTC 2.

yet according the interpretation of Jennings statements WTC 2 was still standing when he got to the 6th floor. Does he ever mention WTC 2 coming down? WTC 1? Surely he and Hess did not simply go back and wait in the hall for 1 1/2 hours nor notice when the two towers did fall. In any case it is quite obvious that the towers were NOT standing when they were rescued and that the destroyed lobby was then not neccessarily the result of any explosion that no one else noticed occurring before either tower collapsed
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We don't know how many people heard the pre-collapse WTC 7 explosion. Since NIST has altered what Jenning's said, we have no way of knowing whether other statements were altered as well. When the explosion occurred that Jenning's described, both of the Twin Towers were burning, which was a good decoy. There were also thousands of people running around decribing explosions they heard. We have no way to know how many of them were WTC 7 related. Before this news came out, we all thought JENNING's was in the Twin Towers as well.
 
Galileo said:
jaydeehess said:
The stairwell is on the west side of the building, we know that as well do we not?
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Barry Jennings was in the east stairwell. Dylan Avery confimed this to me in a private email.

I think it is time to throw some cold water into this discussion. A dose of the TRUTH may do you folks some good.

NIST has misrepresented Barry Jenning's testimony regarding the explosion in the WTC 7 stairwell.
...................
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Galileo, the only thing I agree with you on here is your conclusion that Barry Jennings was in the east stairway. But this fact you can read out of the NIST progress report on WTC 7 if you read it together with chapter 5.9 in the NIST report on emergency response operations.

On page L-17 the NIST progress report you find the following qoute:
Reported close to the time of WTC 1 collapse:
  • East stair expirenced an air pressure burst, filled with dust/smoke, lost lights
  • West stair filled with dust/smoke, lost lights, swayed at Floors 29 through 30, and a crack was felt (in the dark) on the stairwell wall between Floors 27 through 28 and Floors 29 through 30
  • Floors 7 and 8 had no power, air was breathable but not clear
  • Phone lights on Floor 7 were on but could not call out
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The events in the west stair were most likely reported by the security guard that was rescued from Floor 7. And the events in the east stair were most likely reported by Barry Jennings and Michael Hesh since they had not been higher than Floor 23 in the building. This is also supported by the picture on page 5-22 in the FEMA report on WTC 7 that very likely shows the window on Floor 8 that was broken by Barry Jennings and Michael Hesh to call for help. The window is on the north-east corner.

But there is NO WAY an explosion that supposedly destroyed the east stairwell inside WTC 7 before either WTC 2 and WTC 1 collapsed could have been covered up. There were people inside or close to WTC 7 both before and after the collapse of WTC 2. People like Chief Engineer Michael Catalano who had served for 12 years at 7 World Trade Center.
 
Norseman said:
Galileo, the only thing I agree with you on here is your conclusion that Barry Jennings was in the east stairway. But this fact you can read out of the NIST progress report on WTC 7 if you read it together with chapter 5.9 in the NIST report on emergency response operations.

On page L-17 the NIST progress report you find the following qoute:

The events in the west stair were most likely reported by the security guard that was rescued from Floor 7. And the events in the east stair were most likely reported by Barry Jennings and Michael Hesh since they had not been higher than Floor 23 in the building. This is also supported by the picture on page 5-22 in the FEMA report on WTC 7 that very likely shows the window on Floor 8 that was broken by Barry Jennings and Michael Hesh to call for help. The window is on the north-east corner.

But there is NO WAY an explosion that supposedly destroyed the east stairwell inside WTC 7 before either WTC 2 and WTC 1 collapsed could have been covered up. There were people inside or close to WTC 7 both before and after the collapse of WTC 2. People like Chief Engineer Michael Catalano who had served for 12 years at 7 World Trade Center.
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Able Norseman, your name harks back to the great days of my fabled ancestor, Rolf the Ganger.

You don't know the exact time the explosion described by Jenning's occurred and are basically calling a 9/11 survivor a liar.

(because the alarm system was turned off and put on TEST status at 6:47, and getting any info out of Secureacom would be like pulling teeth.)

If you have Michael Catalano's timeline from 8:46 to 10:29, please spit it out. You have no idea if he was close enough to hear the explosion.
 
Knowing the building like the back of his hand, Gregori helped to lead others to safety. In the meantime, police officers had transformed the loading dock of 7 WTC into a triage area and the operations crew helped, providing chairs and medical supplies. Catalano and a few members of his crew had returned to the third-floor lobby to secure the facility when the first tower collapsed. “It got pitch black, we heard a rumbling, it sounded like a missile coming straight through the building right at us,” he explains.
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,,,, but no one noticed an explosion that damaged the east stairwell. Do you suppose that Catalano and the others all left WTC 7, the explosion occured, and then they all came back to WTC 7, and then WTC 2 collapsed?
Catalano says they felt WTC 7 shake when WTC 1 got hit. Do you not suppose they would have felt an explosion strong enough to cause structural damage occuring within the building as well?
 
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jaydeehess said:
,,,, but no one noticed an explosion that damaged the east stairwell. Do you suppose that Catalano and the others all left WTC 7, the explosion occured, and then they all came back to WTC 7, and then WTC 2 collapsed?
Catalano says they felt WTC 7 shake when WTC 1 got hit. Do you not suppose they would have felt an explosion strong enough to cause structural damage occuring within the building as well?
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where in WTC 7 (if he was at all) was Catalano when Barry was rocked by the explosion?
 
jaydeehess said:
No, he is mistaken or being mis-interpreted.
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he is not being mis-interpreted as I can hear his own words.

Nor is he mistaken as his story was out on day 1, is consistent, is not contradicted by any other evidence, and he is a person of great character.
 
Galileo said:
where in WTC 7 (if he was at all) was Catalano when Barry was rocked by the explosion?
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Catelano was on the 44th floor IIRC when the first plane hit.
He was trying to help manage the triage in the loading dock of WTC 7 After # 2 fell.

There is no indication he left the building between those times.

He states he felt the building shake when the plane hit WTC1, 350 feet away. It is rather silly to assume then that he would not have felt an explosion within the very same building, that had enough power to cause structural damage to it.

There is no witness report from anyone who was in the lobby of WTC 7 in which they state that before either tower fell they felt an explosion within WTC 7. In fact if an explosion occured that would greatly damage the stairwell then it can be inferred with near certainty that it would also blow the stairwell doors open at the bottom of the stairs. The doors at the bottom of a fire exit always open outward. No one reports any indication, such as an expelling of dust, from these doors before the towers fell.

Let's dispel one thing brought up in one of your links.The destroyed lobby of WTC 7 reported by the witness cannot in any way be attributed to any explosion within WTC 7 occuring before either tower collapsed. There were people in the lobby, which was in pristine condition at the time, when WTC 2 fell. There were people in the streets near WTC 7 before WTC 2 fell as well. No one reported that the lobby of WTC 7 blew out before the collapse of WTC 2.
 
Galileo said:
he is not being mis-interpreted as I can hear his own words.

Nor is he mistaken as his story was out on day 1, is consistent, is not contradicted by any other evidence, and he is a person of great character.
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His account, if your interpretation is correct, is contradicted by the statements of the other people in and near WTC 7 up to the collapse of WTC 2.

Even people of great character can be mistaken or mis-interpreted.
 
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