10 story hole in WTC 7

[jaydeehess]

Originally Posted by jaydeehess
"Blast wave"? Seems to me that it was a fairly tame "blast wave" as both men suffered little physical damage, even their cloths remained intact.

C7 replies
Agreed

Quote jaydeehess:
So quite obviously the "blast wave" experienced by the two men is not what damaged the stairwell

.
C7 replies
No

YES, if the "explosion is what caused the stairwell to fail then it certainly would have to be powerful enough to tear the clothing of the men standing on the landing that gave way. It really quite simple, high explosives and balst wave causing significant damage to steel and concrete and there must be enough power to significantly affect humans standing on that concrete and steel.

Quote jaydeehess:
Now if only there were another explanation as to what could damage the stairwell that would not involve high explosives........... something like heavy debris of some sort impacting portions of the structure.

C7 replies
The stairwells were about 100 feet from the front of WTC 7.

Nevertheless, it cannot have been an "explosion" that damaged the stairs enough that the landing gave way and we know that the SW corner of the building was gouged out. It is no great leap of logic then to assume that the damage to the SW corner caused the damage to the western stairwell(I knew we had deduced it was the west side before but I wanted you to say it Chris)

Quote jaydeehess:
So am I correct now in theat there was both an elevator car ejected from the shaft in the eastern portion of the building and a stairwell that failed at the time of the collapse of #1?

C7 replies
No.

Sure I am Chris, give it up.

We know that Jenkins and Hesh were on the 8th floor and called for help from a window and that it was 1 1/2 hours before they were rescued. In their statements we looked at before we know they exited the upper floor after WTC 2 came down. They however, never mention WTC 1 going down despite having a front row seat. It is therefore quite obvious that WTC 2 came down while they were in the stairwell and could not know at that time that it had collapsed and were relating their experience at the time in the context of what they knew at the time of the incident in the stairwell.

If that was Barry in the interview, he contradicted what he said on 9/11.
"Blew us back into the 8th floor."

June 2007
"When we reached the 8th, or the 6th floor, the landing that we were standing on gave way.
There was an explosion and the landing gave way.

I was left there hanging."

Anything he says after that cannot be considered valid.

Picky, picky, the man is describing the most horrific personal experience of his life on the day of the most horrific attacks on the USA in at least a century. "blew us back" need not be taken literally. Do you really expect him to say "caused us to retreat to the relative safety of the 8th floor"?

NIST: "Cubicle fire was seen along west wall on Floor 7 just before leaving"
This report was probably made by the firefighters who led the person on floor 7 out of the building.

NIST: "No fires, heavy dust or smoke were reported as they left Floor 8"
This report was no doubt made by the firefighters who rescued Michael and Barry and reported the elevators in the hallway north of the elevator shaft, on floor 8.

If they had made it to the 6th floor, as NIST says, they would have been below the explosion and they would not have been trapped.

That is BS reading of the situation to suit your own needs and only your own needs. Once again it is patently obvious to anyone who does not require explosives in WTC 7 for their pet contention, that the damage to the western stairwell and the "explosive" entry of smoke and/or dust into the stairwell was due to the debris damage to the SW corner and to the south face of WTC 7. Had they been on the 6th floor they would have been equally trapped.

 

[Christopher7]

So far we have solid case for all day fire,

There were fires on several floors, at different times, in the area of the initiating event.
[the failure of core column 79, 80 and/or 81]

Fires in east half of WTC 7

NIST:
11:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m.
Fire on floor 12, moved toward the east face
2:00 to 2:30 p.m.
Fires on east face Floors 11 and 12 at the southeast corner

As of 2:30 p.m., there were fires on floors 11 and 12 in the area of the initiating event.

leading to collapse.

There is no evidence that the initiating event was caused by fire.

In order for fire to cause a core column to fail, 4 floors would have to collapse all around that column, and it would have to be uniformly heated to about 1,000 F.

Do not forget the impact damage from the towers.

There was no debris damage to or near the area of the initiating event.



That's your evidence.

Debris damage to the other end of the building.

and fires that a burned on a few floors, for a few hours, in the area where the collapse began.

 

[Christopher7]

Christopher7, take look at figure 4-17 on top of page 4-15 in the FEMA report on WTC 5. Keep in mind that this was a column in the top of WTC 5. Think what would could happen if it was column in the lower part of WTC 7?

Good find
However

The columns on the 8th floor of a 9 story building are much smaller than the columns on the first 12 floors of a 47 story building.

Note on pg 18, some of the vertical columns remain when the floors all around them have collapsed.

 

[Christopher7]

YES, if the "explosion is what caused the stairwell to fail then it certainly would have to be powerful enough to tear the clothing of the men standing on the landing that gave way.

NIST did not mention the landing collapse.

NISTNCSTAR1-8

Pg 110 [164 on pg counter]

As they went to get into an elevator to go downstairs the lights inside of WTC 7 flickered as WTC 2 collapsed. At this point, the elevator they were attempting to catch no longer worked, so they started down the staircase. When they got to the 6th floor, WTC 1 collapsed, the lights went out in the staircase, the sprinklers came on briefly, and the staircase filled with smoke and debris. The two men went back to the 8th floor broke out a window and called for help.

Nevertheless, it cannot have been an "explosion" that damaged the stairs enough that the landing gave way and we know that the SW corner of the building was gouged out. It is no great leap of logic then to assume that the damage to the SW corner caused the damage to the western stairwell(I knew we had deduced it was the west side before but I wanted you to say it Chris)

We are not certain, it's just a reasonable deduction.

As for the damage to the SW corner effecting the stairwell,

that's a 100 foot leap.

jaydeehess: So am I correct now in that there was both an elevator car ejected from the shaft in the eastern portion of the building and a stairwell that failed at the time of the collapse of #1?
C7: No.
jaydeehess: Sure I am Chris, give it up.

Why do you think the elevator cars were ejected from the shaft in the eastern portion of the building?

Had they been on the 6th floor they would have been equally trapped.

Do you agree with this part?

NIST: "Cubicle fire was seen along west wall on Floor 7 just before leaving"
This report was probably made by the firefighters who led the person on floor 7 out of the building.

NIST: "No fires, heavy dust or smoke were reported as they left Floor 8"
This report was no doubt made by the firefighters who rescued Michael and Barry and reported the elevators in the hallway north of the elevator shaft, on floor 8.

 

[Pardalis]

Chris, why don't you wait for the final report?

 

[BeAChooser]

That is BS reading of the situation to suit your own needs and only your own needs.

I decided to ignore Christopher7 not long after joining this forum and our first debate. Debating him is a complete waste of time as he will ignore or spin anything you post. Wouldn't it be healthier to just laugh at him as I now do? ROTFLOL!

 

[LashL]

It is evidence of a CD.

No, it is most assuredly not. It is evidence only of a perception of a sound "like a clap of thunder."

By itself, it is not proof but it qualifies as evidence.

You are correct that it is not proof of anything. However, it is still not evidence of anything other than a perception of a sound "like a clap of thunder."

Duh

Indeed.

 

[Christopher7]

I decided to ignore Christopher7 not long after joining this forum and our first debate. Debating him is a complete waste of time as he will ignore or spin anything you post. Wouldn't it be healthier to just laugh at him as I now do? ROTFLOL!

I have been unraveling the spin of Gravy and others.

Post #3162 points out that there is no evidence that DD/F caused the collapse of WTC 7.

I have been presenting facts and statements from the government reports people here have claimed as evidence for DD/F.

An honest look at the facts in those reports reveals that there is no evidence of debris damage to or near the area of the initiating event.

 

[Christopher7]

Still waiting, Chris.

Debris -> Fires - there is no evidence -> Collapse.

 

[funk de fino]

C7 - you have not answered ny questions regarding your view on Barry's latest evidence

Are you saying "some" of his testimony is false and as such we can disregard him as a witness?

 

[Belz...]

Debris -> Fires - there is no evidence -> Collapse.

What's this ? A smoke generator ?

 

[GlennB]

.....
As for the damage to the SW corner effecting the stairwell,

that's a 100 foot leap.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3082/wtc7fl8edit3yg8.png

Possibly, but this might not be :

 

[jaydeehess]

NIST did not mention the landing collapse.

NISTNCSTAR1-8

Pg 110 [164 on pg counter]

As they went to get into an elevator to go downstairs the lights inside of WTC 7 flickered as WTC 2 collapsed. At this point, the elevator they were attempting to catch no longer worked, so they started down the staircase. When they got to the 6th floor, WTC 1 collapsed, the lights went out in the staircase, the sprinklers came on briefly, and the staircase filled with smoke and debris. The two men went back to the 8th floor broke out a window and called for help.

So you will admit that WTC 1 collapsed while they were descending the stairs but just cannot accept that the collapse of #1 is what caused their trouble in the stairwells. That's quite the strong bias you are showing Chris.

We are not certain, it's just a reasonable deduction.

Yes, we agreed on that.

As for the damage to the SW corner effecting the stairwell,

that's a 100 foot leap.

Do you suppose I am trying to state that debris from WTC 1 must have reached the stairwell in order to cause the damage chris? It is not neccessary. The SW corner was gouged out which would cause extreme stress on the floor pans and thus on all proximate columns. The building was significantly shifted and the stairwell attached to the structure suffered as a result.

jaydeehess: So am I correct now in that there was both an elevator car ejected from the shaft in the eastern portion of the building and a stairwell that failed at the time of the collapse of #1?

C7: No.

jaydeehess: Sure I am Chris, give it up

.

Why do you think the elevator cars were ejected from the shaft in the eastern portion of the building?

Do you agree with this part?

NIST: "Cubicle fire was seen along west wall on Floor 7 just before leaving"
This report was probably made by the firefighters who led the person on floor 7 out of the building.

NIST: "No fires, heavy dust or smoke were reported as they left Floor 8"
This report was no doubt made by the firefighters who rescued Michael and Barry and reported the elevators in the hallway north of the elevator shaft, on floor 8.

Yes, I believe that we established that the elevator in question was east of the center of the building. At any rate it illustrates a twisting of the core or debris that did in fact reach the core. Either way the car was ejected to the north. Either the core was leaning to the south and thus a car coming down uncontrolled would strike the north side of the shaft, or something entered the shaft from the south and shoved the car to the north. Take your pick After all we do know conclusively that there was heavy damage done to the building by falling debris. We have no conclusive evidence whatsoever of explosives though.

There was no debris damage to or near the area of the initiating event.

The damage need not be proximate to the initiating event of the collapse to have contributed to the initiating event. All it need do is put a stress on the area of the initiating event location and fire damage need not be as severe in order to cause collapse.

If there was an explosion that the two men experienced and it damaged the western stairwell and the initiating event occured in the eastern portion of the building thenm this explosion, by your own measure, had nothing to do with the collapse

 

[Christopher7]

C7 - you have not answered ny questions regarding your view on Barry's latest evidence

Are you saying "some" of his testimony is false and as such we can disregard him as a witness?

On 9/11/01 Michael and Barry said they reached the 8th floor and there was an explosion. This much is reliable.
"Blew us back into the 8th floor." is an overstatement. IMO

June 2007
".... the landing gave way. I was left there hanging." is in conflict with what he said on 9/11/01 and therefore the entire interview should be considered invalid until there is conformation of the statements he made in that interview.

 

[Christopher7]

What's this ? A smoke generator ?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_608045b9f40b1821b.jpg

Fires at the other end of the building.

 

[Christopher7]

Possibly, but this might not be :

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l131/Ignatz_CT/wtc7damagecomposite.jpg

That is a long gash between columns 5 & 6 [Spak#]

The debris that made that gash was falling pretty much straight down.

Furthermore, it doesn't line up with the stairwell.


BTW, the stairwells were about 65 feet from the front of WTC 7. [my bad]
I'm surprised no one caught that.

 

[funk de fino]

On 9/11/01 Michael and Barry said they reached the 8th floor and there was an explosion. This much is reliable.
"Blew us back into the 8th floor." is an overstatement. IMO

June 2007
".... the landing gave way. I was left there hanging." is in conflict with what he said on 9/11/01 and therefore the entire interview should be considered invalid until there is conformation of the statements he made in that interview.

Sorry pal, they would get him into court and on what you have just stated his evidence would be disregarded as contradictory, he would be torn to shreds and destroy your story

You are now one witness down

How do you explain the fact he said the First responders pulled him out a hole in the wall

How can this be?

 

[Christopher7]

So you will admit that WTC 1 collapsed while they were descending the stairs but just cannot accept that the collapse of #1 is what caused their trouble in the stairwells. That's quite the strong bias you are showing Chris.

Look who's talking. You refuse to admit that what they described as an explosion might actually be an explosion.

Do you suppose I am trying to state that debris from WTC 1 must have reached the stairwell in order to cause the damage chris? It is not neccessary. The SW corner was gouged out which would cause extreme stress on the floor pans and thus on all proximate columns. The building was significantly shifted

Source?

and the stairwell attached to the structure suffered as a result.

No

Yes, I believe that we established that the elevator in question was east of the center of the building.

No

At any rate it illustrates a twisting of the core

Get serious

or debris that did in fact reach the core.

Supposition without basis.

Either way the car was ejected to the north.

It is extremely unlikely that falling debris could penetrate 60 feet into WTC 7, much less knock two elevator cars sideways, thru a wall, 80 feet form the front.

Either the core was leaning to the south

Ridiculous supposition.

and thus a car coming down uncontrolled would strike the north side of the shaft,

Even with your ridiculous supposition, the elevator would hit the south side of the shaft.

or something entered the shaft from the south and shoved the car to the north.

What?

You refuse to accept that falling debris could not eject two elevator cars sideways, thru a wall 80 feet from the front of the building.

You refuse to accept that what they heard could have been an explosion.


An explosion next to column 65 on floor 8 could eject the elevator cars into the hallway north of the shaft and damage the west stairwell, filling it with smoke.

 

[jaydeehess]

Look who's talking. You refuse to admit that what they described as an explosion might actually be an explosion.

As I said we all know that the SW corner of the building suffered major damage, the corner columns were ripped out. We also know for a fact that the building was leaning as a result of the damages to the south face. The stairwell is on the west side of the building, we know that as well do we not? We also know for a fact that WTC 1 fell while these men were in the stairwell. well Chris if it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck and flies like a duck I am simply unprepared to make the laep of faith that you would in declaring it a platypus.

Source?

For the fact that when they lined a transit up on the building it was leaning or bulging? Get real Chris. You know it was.

No

duck/platypus

No

Ge I could swear we had. I am not about to go looking through dozens of pages to find it though.

Get serious

duck/platypus

Supposition without basis

.
Simply another possibility
On the other hand you have even less basis for assuming any explosive demolitions.

It is extremely unlikely that falling debris could penetrate 60 feet into WTC 7, much less knock two elevator cars sideways, thru a wall, 80 feet form the front.

Well perhaps less likey but not without precedent that day.

Ridiculous supposition.

transit

Even with your ridiculous supposition, the elevator would hit the south side of the shaft

.

Oops. perhaps you are correct. Ok bounced out off the south side. It is still one possibity and requires only events that are known to have occured such as the damage to the building.

What?

You refuse to accept that falling debris could not eject two elevator cars sideways, thru a wall 80 feet from the front of the building.

True, I consider it a possibility.

You refuse to accept that what they heard could have been an explosion.

I simply accept that , in this world and in the English language , that many is the time that loud sounds and rumblings have been described as an explosion and given the FACT that WTC1 fell whiule they were in the stairwells that it is extremely likely that the "explosion" was the effect of the debris damaging the building only a couple dozen feet from where they were.

An explosion next to column 65 on floor 8 could eject the elevator cars into the hallway north of the shaft and damage the west stairwell, filling it with smoke.

[qimg]http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3082/wtc7fl8edit3yg8.png[/qimg]

Could, but there is no evidence to support this contention. On the other hand if it were there then according to your take on the way the building would react, it would have NO effect on the initiation of collapse yet appears to be the first "explosion" that occured in the building. No other FF's who entered the building report any evidence of such an explosion either and the ones who came for Jenkins and Hesh were some of the first in the building.

 

[Belz...]

You refuse to admit that what they described as an explosion might actually be an explosion.

What you refuse to admit is that what they described as an explosion might actualy be something else.