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The stock market

nw843x

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Joined
Jan 17, 2007
Messages
114
In a month or so I will have cleared up my credit card and have saved $1000 (new job and a raise) to try my hand at investing in the stock market.

Should I be looking for a stock that trades in the 0-10 dollar range so that I can have more than 10 shares and spread my limited wealth between several stocks, or should I invest in one stock and buy as much as I can initially? I plan to add ~200 dollars a month to my investment fund.

I plan to buy stocks to keep them until I need them for my retirement. I am not looking for a get rich quick scheme.

Should I look for a stock that pays a dividend?
 
In a month or so I will have cleared up my credit card and have saved $1000 (new job and a raise) to try my hand at investing in the stock market.

Should I be looking for a stock that trades in the 0-10 dollar range so that I can have more than 10 shares and spread my limited wealth between several stocks, or should I invest in one stock and buy as much as I can initially? I plan to add ~200 dollars a month to my investment fund.

I plan to buy stocks to keep them until I need them for my retirement. I am not looking for a get rich quick scheme.

Should I look for a stock that pays a dividend?

I think the answer to all your questions is "no."

With the amount you can afford to invest, you are probably best off investing in a so-called "index fund" and leaving it there. Unless you are simply brilliant at stock-picking (and you're not), or unless you have sooper sekret inside information (and you don't), you're best off with a wide variety of stocks.

The magic word here is "diversification." The stock market in general is a good investment over the long term, but any individual stock is much more risky. Rather than putting all your eggs in one basket, you want to spread the risk out as much as possible. The easiest way to do this is to buy lots of stocks -- but lots of small purchases, especially of "odd lots," (smaller than 100 shares) will kill you in commissions.

So instead pool your money with other people. That's what a "mutual fund" is. And if you are just interested in long-term market diversification, there's few better options than an index fund, one that buys (more or less) the entire market and then leaves it there rather than incurring transaction costs.

Having said that -- don't take my word for it. Never take the word of a stranger on the Internet w.r.t. your investments. I've given you lots of keywords to do your own research, but I think you'll find my advice is sound.
 
Thanks for all of the keywords, I have a lot to read. :)

I do already contribute to a mutual fund, but it has less than acceptable performance up until 3 months ago. $5000 went down to 3400 but is now back to ~4800 worth, hopefully it rebounds.

Thanks again.
 
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Thanks for all of the keywords, I have a lot to read. :)

I do already contribute to a mutual fund, but it has less than acceptable performance up until 3 months ago. $5000 went down to 3400 but is now back to ~4800 worth, hopefully it rebounds.

Thanks again.

Just wondering... what type of mutual fund was it, and what time frame are we talking about? (For example, when was it worth $5000, when did it go down to $3400, etc.)

Remember, not all mutual funds are the same... Some of them have stocks only, while others mix stocks and bonds (which makes them a little more stable, but they won't grow as much). Some mutual funds invest in a wide range of stocks, while others may invest in certain areas. (For example, there are mutual funds that invest only in companies that deal with energy companies, others that invest only in real estate/mortgages, etc.)

An index fund is a special class of mutual fund... it invests specifically in the top 100 (or top 200, or whatever) companies in the stock exchange... basically, this means the mutual fund company doesn't have to pic/choose which stocks to invest in; they just pick the top ones. (That means if there's some small company with rapidly rising stock they might miss that opportunity; however, it also means they'll miss the small companies that eventually go bankrupt.)

Because the company that runs the index fund doesn't have to put as much effort into choosing what to invest in, they charge lower management fees. (So, instead of charging 2 or 3% as they would with a regular mutual fund, they may only charge 1%) That means you get to keep more of your money.
 
This is the fund I invested with as my local Credit Union had a good deal on commissions etc... and it seemed like a good idea.
http://www.ethicalfunds.com/do_the_right_thing/
( if you click on the "our funds" button there is a list of several funds, I invested various percentages in the top 6 listed)

I should be getting the latest report any day now and hopefully I have at least recovered my initial investment.
 
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This is the fund I invested with as my local Credit Union had a good deal on commissions etc... and it seemed like a good idea.
http://www.ethicalfunds.com/do_the_right_thing/
( if you click on the "our funds" button there is a list of several funds, I invested various percentages in the top 6 listed)

I should be getting the latest report any day now and hopefully I have at least recovered my initial investment.

Ah, that explains at least some of the problems... you're dealing with 'ethical' mutual funds. Those funds, by definition, may overlook certain stocks for 'environmental' reasons. (For example, they may not invest in oil stocks, even if they are a good investment.) Although there have been some years where such funds have performed well, on average they won't do as well as similar mutual funds with no such restrictions on 'ethics'.

I did notice however, that even they have an 'index' fund (although their selection of funds does leave out a few stocks that are in the Toronto Stock Exchange.)

Personally, I like the Royal Bank and the Sun Life index mutual funds.

(Note: I hope this doesn't get to be too commercial for this forum.)
 
I may look into moving my money into a more 'active' fund, assuming the fees don't kill my already marginal profits.

I will also look into investing in an index fund like you suggested. On the other hand I found this : http://update.wsj.com/public/current/articles/SB907719524729880000.htm
It would seem that even a monkey can pick stocks. :D

Nonetheless I have a month or so of reading and research yet before any money changes hands.
 
In a month or so I will have cleared up my credit card and have saved $1000 (new job and a raise) to try my hand at investing in the stock market.

With only a $1000, it's not worth buying individual stocks. Stick it in a mutual fund. Or, what I would probably do, is build cash. Cash is paying 5% now (with one local back paying 6!), so I would build it until I had at least $10,000. Then buy individual stocks. In the mean time, you have cash in case you lose your job or something. I try to keep about 6 months of cash on hand for such occasions.

Should I be looking for a stock that trades in the 0-10 dollar range so that I can have more than 10 shares and spread my limited wealth between several stocks, or should I invest in one stock and buy as much as I can initially? I plan to add ~200 dollars a month to my investment fund.

The price at which a stock trades is irrelevant. But in the above scenario, don't spread it out. Buy as much as you can afford of one company. Or in my $10,000 scenario, buy two, tops. Although I would be perfectly comfortable with one.

I plan to buy stocks to keep them until I need them for my retirement. I am not looking for a get rich quick scheme.

Good idea.

Should I look for a stock that pays a dividend?

It doesn't particulary matter one way or the other.

Want to learn everything there is to know about investing? Read the following three things:

1) http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/ownman.pdf
2) http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/letters.html (all years)
3) http://www.wescofinancial.com/page2.html (all years)

If you can afford $4,000 (give or take a few hundred), buy one share of BRKB, and travel to Omaha the first weekend of every May.

Oh, and one last thing: Ignore 90% of the investment advice you hear on TV.
 
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I may look into moving my money into a more 'active' fund, assuming the fees don't kill my already marginal profits.

I will also look into investing in an index fund like you suggested. On the other hand I found this : http://update.wsj.com/public/current/articles/SB907719524729880000.htm
It would seem that even a monkey can pick stocks. :D

Nonetheless I have a month or so of reading and research yet before any money changes hands.

With investing in the stock market there are essentially two ways to go about it:

1) Turn your money over to someone else and let them make the decisions.

2) Make the decisions yourself by picking your own stocks.

Your ego will always drive you to #2, but the correct answer is always #1. Why? Because the people who control those mutual funds are professionals who are very well educated, very well trained, and have the time and resources to do the research needed to pick the good investments over the bad ones. By making the decisions yourself, you reduce the whole thing to chance, which is not how you want to secure your finances.

I agree that your ethical mutual fund is a loser, but the solution is to turn your money over to a mutual fund with different priorities, not to take control yourself.

If you gotta invest on your own, start by doing a lot of reading.

http://www.fool.com/?ref=topnav
 
With investing in the stock market there are essentially two ways to go about it:

1) Turn your money over to someone else and let them make the decisions.

2) Make the decisions yourself by picking your own stocks.

Your ego will always drive you to #2, but the correct answer is always #1. Why? Because the people who control those mutual funds are professionals who are very well educated, very well trained, and have the time and resources to do the research needed to pick the good investments over the bad ones. By making the decisions yourself, you reduce the whole thing to chance, which is not how you want to secure your finances.

I agree that your ethical mutual fund is a loser, but the solution is to turn your money over to a mutual fund with different priorities, not to take control yourself.

If you gotta invest on your own, start by doing a lot of reading.

http://www.fool.com/?ref=topnav

Wow, there was me saying the business forum was so polite and friendly, then you come out with this tired claptrap....


Which just happens to be superb advice. I think this is the first time I've agreed 100% with you on anything - but you're spot on. For small stock market investments, just go straight to a fund.
 
My advice is make sure you are maxing out your 401k. The key there is you get to put the money in pre-tax. Investing only 1000 after you've already paid tax on it makes no sense if you have the option of contributing to anything like a 401k.

Perhaps see if you can open a roth IRA with the 1k. I believe the money goes in after tax, but earnings are not taxed.

Instead of just buying some index fund, see if you can get the tax break.
 
Also, by my calculation, if you stick the 1k in cash, with a 5% return and don't save anymore, you will have your 10k in 47 years.
 
If you will provide me with an American address and we can figure out some way to "prove" I work in the USA then sign me up !! :D

On a serious note - all of my investments in my mutual fund is through an RRSP - meaning that if I wanted to take it as cash right now I would have to pay the income tax on it. So in a sense it is like a 401K, just the Canadian version.
I do contribute monthly to another RRSP, I have somewhere around 3000 dollars invested in various ones, plus about 1500 in Canada Savings Bonds. Recently I have started taking RRSP loans out before the tax deadline every year to fill up some of that room I have available.
 
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Ah, sorry, us Americans rarely realize some people don't live here...

I do think you should max out the tax effective alternatives before investing after tax cash.

One possibility is to open an Ameritrade account and buy index funds (I think they're called ETFs0 in whichever market you're comfortable with. The benefit is it will cost you probably nothing (they give you the first x number of trades free) and you can track it every day plus add more cash if'n you want too at some semi-decent interest rate (relative to banks).



If you will provide me with an American address and we can figure out some way to "prove" I work in the USA then sign me up !! :D

On a serious note - all of my investments in my mutual fund is through an RRSP - meaning that if I wanted to take it as cash right now I would have to pay the income tax on it. So in a sense it is like a 401K, just the Canadian version.
I do contribute monthly to another RRSP, I have somewhere around 3000 dollars invested in various ones, plus about 1500 in Canada Savings Bonds. Recently I have started taking RRSP loans out before the tax deadline every year to fill up some of that room I have available.
 
Ah, sorry, us Americans rarely realize some people don't live here...

I do think you should max out the tax effective alternatives before investing after tax cash.

One possibility is to open an Ameritrade account and buy index funds (I think they're called ETFs0 in whichever market you're comfortable with. The benefit is it will cost you probably nothing (they give you the first x number of trades free) and you can track it every day plus add more cash if'n you want too at some semi-decent interest rate (relative to banks).

In Canada, we have something along those lines called i60 units, which tracks the top 60 stocks on the Toronto Stock Exchange. (It used to be called TIPS. It does pretty much the same as an index mutual fund, but with even lower fees.) You can even put these into your RRSP (if you have room),

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2000/01/19/tips000119.html
 
Agree with most of the previous comments about choosing mutual funds for the amounts you're talking about investing. You may want to look at a family of funds that are 'no-load' funds (no fees for buying or selling), such as Altamira. I would tend to pick a fund that met your investment goals. 'Ethical' funds don't interest me at all. Sign me up for stocks in cigarettes, booze & gambling, if thats where the money is, thanks.

For your RRSP - why would you put money into CSBs? You would get a FAR better return that is almost as rock-solid by putting money into a bond fund or a 'money market' type of fund.

I tend to be more risk tolerant with my RRSP funds vs my cash investments, since my RRSP has 30 years of growth ahead of it. (I don't know how old you are nw843x). IF I wanted the return that CSBs offered, I would hold them with CASH, not with my RRSP.

You may also wish to look at some of the Canadian Natural Gas Income Trusts. They've been unfairly hammered because of a negative tax ruling, and the quality companies have HUGE asset loads & turnover very juicy dividends at current valuations. 15% and up are available right now. One of my personal holdings is PrimeWest (pwi_un.to)
 
I put my money into CSB's back before I had a "real" job. I worked after school on farms and doing odd jobs. That was ~20 years ago. Now I know better.
I have at least 30 years to go before I retire ..... sigh .....
 
I do think you should max out the tax effective alternatives before investing after tax cash.
It's not really that simple.

There are many reasons not to do this. To fully understand the situation as it applies to you you need to either talk to a tax professional or educate yourself in the applicable tax laws and run a bunch of scenerios.


First, as you state, yes, the money you put in is pre-tax. However, when you withdraw it it is taxed, and taxed as ordinary income. Let's explore the consequences of this.

If I currently mow lawns for a living while going to school for my MBA, I am currently in a very low tax bracket, but will eventually be in a very high tax bracket. I can expect to pay a higher tax rate in the future. Why should I avoid a low tax rate now to pay a high tax rate in the future (when I retire)?

If I am currently in a high tax bracket, but plan to retire to a small community and live simply, then my retirement tax rate will be lower. I almost certainly should strive to lower my taxes by avoiding my current high rates in exchange for future low rates.

However, 401K withdrawals are taxed as ordinary income. My stock purchases are taxed at the capital gains tax, currently 15%. If my ordinary income taxes exceed 15%, I end up paying more taxes from the 401K.

Certainly if your employer offers a matching rate you should contribute enough to get that match. Taxes be damned, that's free money! beyond that, the tax issue is complicated.

Then, you also don't get to claim a tax loss if a stock you buy tanks.

401K plans are usually restricted. My company has a collection of ho-hum mutual funds, some charging an egregious 5.75% front load, others charging up to 2.44% for fees.

Note my assumptions assume that you are buying stocks and holding for years. A lot of people don't have that discipline. Taking a tax haircut every few years, or months, is a good way to reduce your savings. In a 401K you can buy and sell without tax consequences (until you remove the money).

There is also an advantage to getting more money into the market sooner. Since you are investing pretax, you are getting more money into the market sooner, and this really adds up when compound interest is taken into account.

There is the disadvantage that if your 401K contribution drops you down a tax bracket, you are penalized in the form of tax breaks you get from things like morgages.

There are other issues: while you should only be putting money in a 401K that is intended for retirement, and you should have a 6 month cash cushion, emergencies happen to the best of us. Your mother's house is destroyed by Katrina. Your husband develops cancer, and you hit your insurance limit. Etc. Dipping into a 401K entails a signficant penalty you would not face if the money was invested in other ways. What risk/reward valuation do you put on this?

Here is a good article covering some of these issues.

ETA: I think the reason you see this advice (max out 401k) from professionals even is the assumption that the average person cannot manage their own investments. Data based on analysis of individual brokerage accounts bear this out - the average person substantially underperforms the market. But, there are now instruments to help you out. Vanguard has a bunch of index funds and funds that adjust based bond/stock holdings based on when you want the money. Basically the idea is buy and hold. Just buy an index. For example. SPY is the symbol for in index that tracks the S&P 500. The S&P 500 runs 8-10% returns over long periods of time. So, if that is what you want, just buy SPY every paycheck. Don't try to guess whether the market is going up or down, never, ever sell it, just accumulate until you retire. Then, you will only pay the tax haircut once. If that seems too hard, and your 401k program is good, then maxing out the 401k may be the best bet, even if it is not the most tax efficient solution for your situation.
 
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