10 story hole in WTC 7

[Christopher7]

Christopher7, people use all kinds of words to describe violent events they expirience.

Whenever the word 'explosions' is mentioned, OTers chant the deniers mantra
"Not everything that sounds like an explosion, is an explosion"

Can you bring yourself to admit that sometimes when people say they heard an explosion, it actually was an explosion?

All available information indicates that Hesh and Jennings used the word explosion to describe what they experienced when WTC 1 collapsed.

Not so

The elevators in the hallway north of the shaft are evidence of an explosion.

You can always find an alternative explanation, however unlikely, but that does not negate the possibility that what they heard and what ejected the elevator cars was an explosion.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

As opposed to the deniers matra of "And explosion is a bomb, an explosion is a bomb"? In other words OTers don't make speculation and conjecture like you do? Interesting.

 

[Norseman]

Good find
However

The columns on the 8th floor of a 9 story building are much smaller than the columns on the first 12 floors of a 47 story building.

Note on pg 18, some of the vertical columns remain when the floors all around them have collapsed.

But the columns on the first 12 floors of a 47 story building have to carry the weight of the 35 floors above. That should even things out. And it is likely that the columns on the 8th floor of a 9 story building are of the same size as the lower columns out of simplicity, and therefore over dimensioned for the task.

The point was to show that steel structures are weakened and can collapse due to fire. This fact has been pointed out again and again with numerous examples in this forum and elsewhere. It is the principle that counts and there is no exception from this fact for any steel constructions in the world, including WTC 1, WTC 2 and WTC 7. There are of course ways to mitigate the effect of fire on steel, but sometimes all the care the engineers took is not enough, as we saw in the extreme events of September 11th 2001.

But when this is discussed with CT´ers suddenly the steel in WTC 1, WTC 2 and WTC 7 are behaving according to different rules.

It is like the rules of CalvinBall. CT´ers change the rules all the time when presented with information that refute their more or less far out pet theory, just to keep their theory alive.

 

[MaGZ]

So Barry claims he was taken out a hole in the wall by the firemen and the lobby was destroyed. Why did no-one on the outside see these holes or the state of the lobby, there were plenty of witnesses around that would have seen this hole in the building? I thought the explosion was away from everything and did not even break windows? If it made a hole in the wall it must have been pretty huge and it would have been heard and seen on the outside?

Someone got his times mixed up I think, and is mistaken about the second tower not being hit

I did like his smoke on the coffee quote though

I think Barry Jennings arrived at the command center on the 23 rd floor just before the second plane hit WTC 2. Everyone was gone in the room because those in the command center knew the second hijacked plane was heading toward the city. They did not know what the plane’s target was so the command post was evacuated.
Jennings arrive and is told to leave the area immediately. While in the stairwell he experienced the explosion in WTC 7 which was just seconds after the crash of the second plane into WTC 2. The explosion Jennings experienced was from the missile that was fired by a fighter which tried to intercept the second plane.

 

[beachnut]

more junk, no facts, no sources

I think Barry Jennings arrived at the command center on the 23 rd floor just before the second plane hit WTC 2. Everyone was gone in the room because those in the command center knew the second hijacked plane was heading toward the city. They did not know what the plane’s target was so the command post was evacuated.
Jennings arrive and is told to leave the area immediately. While in the stairwell he experienced the explosion in WTC 7 which was just seconds after the crash of the second plane into WTC 2. The explosion Jennings experienced was from the missile that was fired by a fighter which tried to intercept the second plane.

You just make this stuff up from scratch?

 

[MaGZ]

Are you calling them liars?

These are statements made on 911 by people who were in WTC 7.

We agree that the 'explosions' took place about the time WTC 1 collapsed.

This explains why there are not more earwitnesses.

If you believe they experienced the explosion in WTC 7 at the time WTC 1 collapsed then they must have gotten to WTC 7 just after the collapse of WTC 2 (30 minutes before the collapse of WTC 1).

The only thing that makes sense is they arrived at WTC 7 just after the crash of the first plane. They experienced the missile strike at WTC 7 at 9:03. Later they were rescued around 10:30 when WTC 1 collapsed.

 

[Christopher7]

But the columns on the first 12 floors of a 47 story building have to carry the weight of the 35 floors above. That should even things out. And it is likely that the columns on the 8th floor of a 9 story building are of the same size as the lower columns out of simplicity, and therefore over dimensioned for the task.

Point taken

However

The columns on the first nine floors of a 47 story building are much heavier that the columns in a nine story building.

Columns 79, 80 and 81 weighed 730 pounds per lineal foot [over 4 tons per floor]
The greater the amount of steel that has to be heated, the longer it will take to heat it up.

The point was to show that steel structures are weakened and can collapse due to fire. This fact has been pointed out again and again with numerous examples in this forum and elsewhere.

In all the examples of steel columns failing due to fire, the columns are many times smaller than the columns in question.

The columns in WTC 7 were heavier than the ones in the Meridian Plaza because there were fewer of them.
The support columns in the Meridian Plaza suffered no apparent damage despite the extraordinary exposure.

The data on how large columns, in high rise buildings, react says:

http://www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf/Tr-049.pdf
pg 19 [24 on pg counter]
After the fire, there was evident significant structural
damage to horizontal steel members and floor sections on most of the fire
damaged floors. Beams and girders sagged and twisted -- some as much as
three feet -- under severe fire exposures, and fissures developed in the
reinforced concrete floor assemblies in many places. Despite this
extraordinary exposure, the columns continued to support their loads
without obvious damage.


http://www.iklimnet.com/hotelfires/meridienplaza_lessons.html
12. Columns and certain other structural elements are normally exposed to fire from all sides. In this fire, the steel columns retained their structural integrity and held their loads. Experience in this and similar high-rise fires suggest that columns are the least vulnerable structural members, due to their mass and relatively short height between restraints (floor to floor). Major damage has occurred to horizontal members, without compromising the vertical supports.

 

[funk de fino]

The explosion Jennings experienced was from the missile that was fired by a fighter which tried to intercept the second plane.

OK pal, what type of missile and how and where did it hit WTC7?

Think carefully now, because I am an ex miltary aircraft tech

 

[funk de fino]

C7 - If you have now lost Barry as a witness due to his contradicting claims, dose this mean you have now lost Hess as he was only quoted by Barry?

Or is there seperate Hess accounts?

What does this leave you witness wise?

 

[jaydeehess]

I think Barry Jennings arrived at the command center on the 23 rd floor just before the second plane hit WTC 2. Everyone was gone in the room because those in the command center knew the second hijacked plane was heading toward the city. They did not know what the plane’s target was so the command post was evacuated.
Jennings arrive and is told to leave the area immediately. While in the stairwell he experienced the explosion in WTC 7 which was just seconds after the crash of the second plane into WTC 2. The explosion Jennings experienced was from the missile that was fired by a fighter which tried to intercept the second plane.

As Beachnut says, you seem to make this stuff up from scratch. Jennings and Hess[/s] (Chris says its Hess and who am I to argue?) left the 23rd floor after the collapse of WTC 2 and were rescued after the collaspe of WTC 1. Therefore they were in the stairwell at the time that #1 went down.

Chris now trys to say that the debris hitting WTC7 from #1 would sound like a series of explosions.

Wrong Chris. All of the fast, heavy debris from higher up would hit WTC 7 at about the same time.(why don't you do some math and see why)

Second, we are not talking about debris that bouces off the building, we are speaking about debris large enough and dense enough and fast enough to rip the corner column out of WTC 7 as well as dozens of other structuiral steel pieces along the south face. THAT will make a very loud noise and will cause a hell of a lot of shaking throughout the ENTIRE structure. Fur gawd'sake Chris when a freaking pigeon hits my front window the whole house transmits the vibration, when a bus went by on the street in front of a house I used to live in my record needle would jump around(it was a while ago) and thunder manages to shake my entire house quite well. In a 47 storey building whyen a corner column is rippeed from it the whole building is going to shake and the effects will be worse the closer to that corner one is. the two men in question were likely(according to you) in the west stairwell and therefore within a few dozen feet of that major damage to the building. The stairwells have to be connected to the structure, the structure suffered major compromise at that moment.

The bulge does not mean any lean or stress on the core of stairwell structure????? What do you smoke Chris? What fantasy life do you walk about in Chris?

Just what accounts , physically, for that bulge Chris? What is bulging? What is it connected to that is preventing that bulging portion of the structure from coming down onto the street? In other words what would have to fail to have the bulging portion hit the street?
It is all connected to the core columns Chris. the floor spans are now in catenary action and attached to the core section. This is pulling the core to the south(and west ). It simply and unequivocably must be doing that. It cannot be doing anything else. This is also where the stairwell is Chris. The stairwell that suffered structural damage and also near(according to you) where the elevators were ejected.

Now you wish to mention that we don't actually know if they were in the east or west stairs or if the elevators were in the east or west portion of the building nor do we then know that the FF's who viewed the lobby as they were exiting the building were looking from the east or the west end of the lobby.

You Have no one at all witnessing any explosion from WTC 7 and your explanation is that it was timed to coincide with the collapse of WTC1. How much BS do you have to shovel before you smell it Chris?

As for falling debris causing lateral motion. You are a carpenter Chris and although it probably happens less now that you are experinced, you will recall that a nail not hit squarely will indeed head off laterally with quite a bit of velocity. Secondly, in order to reach WTC 7 the debris had to have a horozontal velocity component. That horizontal velocity would lose some to air resistance but for a dense object that loss would be negligible. The dense debris that hit WTC 7 still had all but a small fraction of the approx 40 MPH horizontal component of its velocity that it had when it left WTC 1 and direction of the velocity was nominally towrads the north Chris.

 

[MaGZ]

OK pal, what type of missile and how and where did it hit WTC7?

Think carefully now, because I am an ex miltary aircraft tech

At the beginning of this thread are two videos of one missile flying over the WTC plaza and into the Hudson River. At the same time a second missile was fired by one of the fighters from Otis ,missed Flight 175, and hit WTC 7 on the 14th floor at 9:03. This is the explosion Hess and Jennings experienced. Fox News has footage of the missile hitting WTC 7.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83514

 

[twinstead]

I have to hand it to you MaGZ. Few people have the courage and tenacity to hold on to a completely ludicrous theory, and in fact actively debate it, for as long as you have.

 

[Christopher7]

The dense debris that hit WTC 7 still had all but a small fraction of the approx 40 MPH horizontal component of its velocity that it had when it left WTC 1

Really? Source?

Your entire post is a lot of double talk that says nothing.

NIST does not even suggest that debris ejected the elevator cars.

Why do you?

 

[jaydeehess]

Really? Source?

Your entire post is a lot of double talk that says nothing.

NIST does not even suggest that debris ejected the elevator cars.

Why do you?

I did the math Chris. The debris travelled a certain distance from WTC 1. It could have fallen from a max height of the initial failure floors of WTC 1. gravity is constant. Now I have given you all the information you need to determine the minimum horizontal velocity debris would have to have in order to hit WTC 7.

This BTW Chris, is a problem that any high school physics student could calculate.
NIST makes no conjecture in the preliminary report on what may have caused the elevator cars to be ejected.

 

[Christopher7]

I did the math Chris.

Right

There is a physics professor with two PhD's and 135 architects and engineers who came to a different conclusion.

Did NIST do the math?

NIST makes no conjecture in the preliminary report on what may have caused the elevator cars to be ejected.

Correct

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Wow, a 135 (supposed) architects sure sounds impressive.... As opposed to the other millions throughout the world who don't seem to have any problem with NIST (despite them not having released findings yet).

Oh but I wonder if you're gonna argue that them not saying anything doesn't mean they don't agree.

I bet you I can find 100 scientists that think Elvis is still alive. But they would be wrong because the rest of the scientific community not speaking up to say they don't feel Elvis is not alive.

Just as you have argued that the some 225+ engineers who are writing the papers that disagree with you probably don't agree with the very papers and research they are presenting.

My father was a world renowned architect who worked on very large buildings and casinos.. Would you like me to ask him as well? Of course if I did he would just look at me like I am crazy, and wouldn't be bothered to tkae the implication seriously, but I can if you want a specific answer.

 

[funk de fino]

At the beginning of this thread are two videos of one missile flying over the WTC plaza and into the Hudson River. At the same time a second missile was fired by one of the fighters from Otis ,missed Flight 175, and hit WTC 7 on the 14th floor at 9:03. This is the explosion Hess and Jennings experienced. Fox News has footage of the missile hitting WTC 7.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83514

I'll have a look but in the meantime, tell me what type of missile this is you are claiming to see?

 

[funk de fino]

At the beginning of this thread are two videos of one missile flying over the WTC plaza and into the Hudson River. At the same time a second missile was fired by one of the fighters from Otis ,missed Flight 175, and hit WTC 7 on the 14th floor at 9:03. This is the explosion Hess and Jennings experienced. Fox News has footage of the missile hitting WTC 7.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83514

errrr, no there is not

no missile, one looks like a blob moving across the screen and nothing like a missile and the other looks like something falling very close to the camera

no missile, no explosion

are people really that desparate they have to claim crap like this?

 

[jaydeehess]

Originally Posted by jaydeehess
The dense debris that hit WTC 7 still had all but a small fraction of the approx 40 MPH horizontal component of its velocity that it had when it left WTC 1

Originally Posted by Christopher7
Really? Source?

Originally Posted by jaydeehess
I did the math Chris.

Right

There is a physics professor with two PhD's and 135 architects and engineers who came to a different conclusion.

Did NIST do the math?

OMG, you don't know how to figure out the horizontal velocity that the debris from WTC 1 would have to have in order to reach WTC 7 do you?

How far is WTC 7 from WTC 1 Chris?
What is the height of the initial collapse in WTC 1?
I can look up these numbers myself but I want to be sure I am using numbers that you feel are correct.

 

[jaydeehess]

At the beginning of this thread are two videos of one missile flying over the WTC plaza and into the Hudson River. At the same time a second missile was fired by one of the fighters from Otis ,missed Flight 175, and hit WTC 7 on the 14th floor at 9:03. This is the explosion Hess and Jennings experienced. Fox News has footage of the missile hitting WTC 7.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83514

This is supposedly an air-to-air missile right MaGZ?
Funk has asked you several times the type/model of missile and you have yet to answer him.

FACT is that an air-to-air missile contains relatively little explosive. It is designed to track and catch fighter aircraft which can do mach 2, it is designed to turn in at least the g's that the fighter can. In order to acheive this the mass of the missile must be kept to a minimum.
Secondly, aircraft actually are rather fragile machines and it takes very much less to disable them than for instance, an armoured personel carrier. A few shards of metal up the tailpipe or severing a hydralic pipe and down she goes. Some aircraft are actually hardened for damage such as the A-10 but you will also notice that the A-10 is meant for close support of ground forces and ,slooow.
Thus air-to-air missiles are designed with only a large enough warhead to kill an aircraft.

On the other hand you have this a2a missile hitting WTC 7, entering the building and damaging a steel and concrete structure.
Not bloody likely pal.