10 story hole in WTC 7

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Nah - don't wriggle so. You clearly stated he was shown the same videos as the rest of us, so you must know.

I've spoken with many 9/11 CTists who had never seen the video that shows the fall of the E Penthouse. One or two even expressed deep surprise at seeing something that shook their "it's so obvious" standpoint.

So - tell us. Which video(s) was he shown?
This is probably the first video he saw. [no sound]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixwx19t2IMQ

It shows the screenwall and the west penthouse falling just before the north and west walls.

That is enough to establish that:

"They simply blew up columns and the rest caved in afterwards."
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When he was shown the column layout he said:

Jowenko: That explains quite a lot.
Interviewer: What does that explain?
J: That you can do it fast.

I: But which columns do you have to blow up to let it collapse as cleanly as we have seen?
J: This heart. [he circles the core columns with his finger]

It does not matter if there were 12 or 24, if you blow them, the building will implode.


[/FONT] The fact that the east penthouse collapsed first only adds certainty that it was a CD.

Clearing out a hole first allows the east and west walls to collapse inward.

Had they collapsed the whole interior at once, the north and south walls would collapse inward but the east and west walls would be forced outward, or the other way around.

The 'kink' that developed brought the east and west walls inward.


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This is probably the first video he saw. [no sound]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixwx19t2IMQ

It shows the screenwall and the west penthouse falling just before the north and west walls.

"Probably" ? You said you knew. So, that would be the one that doesn't show the E Penthouse ... OK

They simply blew up columns and the rest caved in afterwards."

"Simply" ? How exactly?
The fact that the east penthouse collapsed first only adds certainty that it was a CD.
If you say so.
Clearing out a hole first allows the east and west walls to collapse inward.
Wouldn't we need an equivalent "hole" on the West side, thus collapsing the W Penthouse?
Had they collapsed the whole interior at once, the north and south walls would collapse inward but the east and west walls would be forced outward, or the other way around.
Which way round?
The 'kink' that developed brought the east and west walls inward.

You are totally stoned, aren't you?
 
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"Probably" ? You said you knew. So, that would be the one that doesn't show the E Penthouse ... OK

"Simply" ? How exactly?

The core columns in the elevator shafts and mechanical floors [5 & 6] were accessible to 'maintenance' workers and out of sight to everyone else.

The building could easily have been rigged before 9/11.

There were no fires reported below the 6th floor.
The only fire on the 6th floor was on the SW side.

[FONT=&quot]Stacy Loizeaux:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We only really need to work on the first two floors, because—you can make the building come down that way.
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Wouldn't we need an equivalent 'hole' on the West side, thus collapsing the W Penthouse?
No

The 'hole' and the subsequent 'kink' brought the east wall in more than the west wall.

WTC 7 imploded [fell in on itself]
 
And of course this proves demolition because a collapse by fire would cause a building to fall upwards not down. So there for we can make conjecture about bombs.
 
9-11-01
[FONT=&quot]Barry Jenkins "Me and Mr. Hesh[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ...." "Big explosion! Blew us back into the 8th floor."

He probably meant the 8th floor landing. [or, for some reason, he opened the door to the 8th floor]
He described a blast that was more than smoke coming up the stairwell.
The blast, at very least, threw him backwards.

Michael Hesh "another gentleman and i walked down to the 8th floor and there was an explosion! and we were trapped on the 8th floor.

spring 2004NISTNCSTAR1-8
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As they went to get into an elevator to go downstairs the lights inside of WTC 7 flickered as WTC 2 collapsed. At this point, the elevator they were attempting to catch no longer worked, so they started down the staircase. When they got to the 6th floor, WTC 1 collapsed, the lights went out in the staircase, the sprinklers came on briefly, and the staircase filled with smoke and debris. The two men went back to the 8th floor broke out a window and called for help

On 9/11/01 they both said they got to the 8th floor and there was an explosion.

Three and a half years later, NIST says the 6th floor and does not mention the explosion or address the fact that there was a blast wave that went with that explosion.[/FONT]

Do you believe this version of the events that Barry Jennings gives in this interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NttM3oUrNmE

He is very clearly lying in parts of this interview if it is real.

BTW: there was an explosion about that time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcRs1fv8i3I
Worthless without original source, context, time and location. A lot of things could have sounded like an explosion that day entirely without explosives involved.
 
Do you believe this version of the events that Barry Jennings gives in this interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NttM3oUrNmE

He is very clearly lying in parts of this interview if it is real.
9-11-01
Barry Jenkins "Me and Mr. Hesh ...." "Big explosion! Blew us back into the 8th floor."


July 2007
When we reached the 8th, or the 6th floor, the landing that we were standing on gave way.
There was an explosion and the landing gave way.
I was left there hanging.

Houston! We have a conundrum.

Michael Hesh verified the explosion but, if that really is Barry, every thing else he says should be disregarded.
 
So Barry claims he was taken out a hole in the wall by the firemen and the lobby was destroyed. Why did no-one on the outside see these holes or the state of the lobby, there were plenty of witnesses around that would have seen this hole in the building? I thought the explosion was away from everything and did not even break windows? If it made a hole in the wall it must have been pretty huge and it would have been heard and seen on the outside?

Someone got his times mixed up I think, and is mistaken about the second tower not being hit

I did like his smoke on the coffee quote though
 
Tell me again, where I can find Meridian Plaza? What happen to Meridian Plaza that did not loose the strength?
The Meridian Plaza was torn down. It did not collapse.

Lessons learned.

[FONT=&quot]Experience in this and similar high-rise fires suggest that columns are the least vulnerable structural members, due to their mass and relatively short height between restraints (floor to floor). [/FONT]
 
Wrong
The lobby was open end to end. The firefighters could see that there was no heavy debris in the lobby areas from either end of the lobby.

The "explosion" , it seems to me is quite obviously the effect the collapse of WTC 1 had on WTC 7. They did not know that #1 had gone down all they knew about was the effects they witnessed in their location.

True, but there were no fires at time Michael and Barry heard an explosion.

There was the extreme amount of relativley fast moving dust, likely some smoke from the fires that had been in the towers and then there are the fires that were ignited in WTC 7 due to the damage caused by the collapse of WTC 1.




An explosion would create smoke, dust and debris.

Explosion is the more likely of the two explanations.

In your opinion. I beg to differ.
The clap of thunder it seems obvious, occured before the penthouse started to sink. We know the witnesses could not see the penthouse, correct? Something gives internally, with a loud boom or crack, the column structure under the penthouse sinks causing a rippling effect to be visible up the side of the building, the Penthouse begins to sink, falls through the building for several seconds eventually causing major damage to the cantilever truss/column system which also fails and which is responsible for much of the structural integrity of the north wall so the lower portion of the north wall comes apart as the cantilever trusses lose their support and then the entire building is compromised and collapses.

The normal position for stairwell doors is closed.
,,,,,Not perfectly.

Yes, perfectly. You expect that the doors would withstand the impact of the tower debris and the rather large, dense and fast moving dust cloud such that barely a whiff of dust would enter the stairwell. The only way for that to occur is for the doors to work perfectly.


I take all eyewitness statements at face value unless there reason to doubt them. [other statements or evidence to the contrary]
This does not mean they constitute proof, but they should be considered as evidence of what happened.
Collaboration by other witnesses gives them more credibility.

Tell me again how many other witnesses heard the "clap of thunder" or what exactly backs up the senario as described by the two that did, especially as per the timing of the events they witnessed?



Meet ya half way

No reason to assume it wasn't an explosion or a mistake made in the extreme nature of the situation they were in.

,,, or the very human habit of describing one thing using terms that can be both generic or specific. Make that the very human way of describing situations in ENGLISH. That could be considered a mistake I suppose.

After all people learning English do often get very confused at the way our words can so many differing connotations.
 
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Three and a half years later, NIST says the 6th floor and does not mention the explosion or address the fact that there was a blast wave that went with that explosion.

"Blast wave"? Seems to me that it was a fairly tame "blast wave" as both men suffered little physical damage, even their cloths remained intact.

So quite obviously the "blast wave" experienced by the two men is not what damaged the stairwell. Now if only there were another explanation as to what could damage the stairwell that would not involve high explosives........... something like heavy debris of some sort impacting portions of the structure.

So am I correct now in theat there was both an elevator car ejected from the shaft in the eastern portion of the building and a stairwell that failed at the time of the collapse of #1? Refresh my memory as to which end of the building Jenkins and Hesh were desending the stairwell.
 
The Meridian Plaza was torn down. It did not collapse.

Lessons learned.

[FONT=&quot]Experience in this and similar high-rise fires suggest that columns are the least vulnerable structural members, due to their mass and relatively short height between restraints (floor to floor). [/FONT]

Christopher7, take look at figure 4-17 on top of page 4-15 in the FEMA report on WTC 5. Keep in mind that this was a column in the top of WTC 5. Think what would could happen if it was column in the lower part of WTC 7?
 
The "explosion" , it seems to me is quite obviously the effect the collapse of WTC 1 had on WTC 7. They did not know that #1 had gone down all they knew about was the effects they witnessed in their location.
Obviously?
You were not there.
You don't know what they heard or exactly when.

There was the extreme amount of relativley fast moving dust, likely some smoke from the fires that had been in the towers and then there are the fires that were ignited in WTC 7 due to the damage caused by the collapse of WTC 1.
Stairwells are closed.
It took a while for those fires to get going.
They said they were trapped on the 8th floor for an hour and a half.

11:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m.:
No signs of fire or smoke were reported below the 6th Floor from the exterior, stairwells or lobby areas.

[FONT=&quot]spring 2004NISTNCSTAR1-8
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When they got to the 6th floor, [Michael and Barry said the 8th floor] WTC 1 collapsed, the lights went out in the staircase, the sprinklers came on briefly, and the staircase filled with smoke and debris. [/FONT] In addition, a security officer for one of the businesses in the building was also trapped on the 7th floor by smoke in the stairway. As the firefighters went up, they vented the stairway and cleared some of the smoke. Other firefighters from the group continued up the stairs, shined their flashlight through the staircase smoke and called out.

The two trapped men on the 8th floor saw the flashlight beam and heard the firefighters calling
Through a closed door?
 
The clap of thunder it seems obvious, occured before the penthouse started to sink.
Wrong

He said "clap of thunder ...... about a second later the bottom caved out."
[add 1 sec. for sound travel time delay]
The penthouse had been collapsing for 7 1/2 seconds when the bottom caved out or about 5 seconds before the clap of thunder.

The collapse was a continuous series of columns failing and floors falling.
At no point in this process would there be a single 'clap of thunder'.
 
See post #3146

No, it does not, are you saying he is mistaken about being taken out a hole and that the lobby was not destroyed at this time? The firemen who carried him out would have seen the destroyed lobby? This could not have been prior to the collapse of the towers?

This does not make sense with all your other posts?

Please expand on what you are trying to say about Barry's interview that Jones played?

ETA - add "interview"
 
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"Blast wave"? Seems to me that it was a fairly tame "blast wave" as both men suffered little physical damage, even their cloths remained intact.
Agreed

So quite obviously the "blast wave" experienced by the two men is not what damaged the stairwell.
No

Now if only there were another explanation as to what could damage the stairwell that would not involve high explosives........... something like heavy debris of some sort impacting portions of the structure.
The stairwells were about 100 feet from the front of WTC 7.

So am I correct now in theat there was both an elevator car ejected from the shaft in the eastern portion of the building and a stairwell that failed at the time of the collapse of #1?
No.

If that was Barry in the interview, he contradicted what he said on 9/11.
"Blew us back into the 8th floor."

June 2007
"When we reached the 8th, or the 6th floor, the landing that we were standing on gave way.
There was an explosion and the landing gave way.

I was left there hanging."

Anything he says after that cannot be considered valid.

Refresh my memory as to which end of the building Jenkins and Hesh were desending the stairwell.
Probably the west stairway. [as you deduced quite some time ago]

NIST: "Cubicle fire was seen along west wall on Floor 7 just before leaving"
This report was probably made by the firefighters who led the person on floor 7 out of the building.

NIST: "No fires, heavy dust or smoke were reported as they left Floor 8"
This report was no doubt made by the firefighters who rescued Michael and Barry and reported the elevators in the hallway north of the elevator shaft, on floor 8.

If they had made it to the 6th floor, as NIST says, they would have been below the explosion and they would not have been trapped.
 
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Anything he says after that cannot be considered valid.

Probably the west stairway. [as you deduced quite some time ago]

So you are using selective witness testimony from your own witness? Absolutely incredible!!

He says he was rescued by the firefighters and taken out a hole in the wall, how did that hole get there? He also says the lobby was destroyed how did this happen?

If you disregard any of his staement you have to disregard it all, the choice is yours?

Sorry we dont deal in probablys, what staircase was it?
 
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