Why political systems based on atheism kill several times more citizens

[plumjam]

Whether or not Hitler was a practicing Christian doesn't change the fact that he used Christian dogma and references to divine destiny and providence to justify his actions. Whether or not he actually believed in God is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that he certainly did not use atheism as the justification for his atrocities.

Also, to ignore the fact that antisemitism in Europe was NOT spawned from Christianity completely ignores history. Even if Hitler didn't believe in God, those who followed him hated the Jews largely because it was what their religion (both Catholic and Protestant) taught them to do.

Did Hitler's ideology contain Darwinism?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Did Hitler's ideology contain Darwinism?

No.

1. Hitler based his ideas not on Darwinism but on a "divine right" philosophy:
   Thus, it [the folkish philosophy] by no means believes in an equality of races, but along with their difference it recognizes their higher or lesser value and feels itself obligated, through this knowledge, to promote the victory of the better and stronger, and demand the subordination of the inferior and weaker in accordance with the eternal will that dominates this universe. (Hitler 1943, 383)​
   The first edition of Mein Kampf suggests that Hitler may once have believed in a young earth: "this planet will, as it did thousands of years ago, move through the ether devoid of men" (p. 65; the second edition substitutes "millions" for "thousands," and chapter 11 refers to "hundreds of thousands of years" of life in another context.) Other passages further support his creationist leanings:
   The undermining of the existence of human culture by the destruction of its bearer seems in the eyes of a folkish philosophy the most execrable crime. Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent Creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise. (Hitler 1943, 383)​
   and
   What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, . . . so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe. (Hitler 1943, 214)​
   Quotes from Hitler invoking Christianity as a basis for his actions could be multiplied ad nauseam. For example:
   Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord (Hitler 1943, 65).​
   "[T]he task of preserving and advancing the highest humanity, given to this earth by the benevolence of the Almighty, seems a truly high mission (Hitler 1943, 398).
   A campaign against the "godless movement" and an appeal for Catholic support were launched Wednesday by Chancellor Adolf Hitler's forces (Associated Press 1933).​
   Of course, this does not mean that Hitler's ideas were based on creationism any more than they were based on evolution. Hitler's ideas were a perversion of both religion and biology.
2. Genocide and racism existed long before Darwin. Obviously, they did not need any contribution from Darwinism. In many instances, such as the Crusades and the Spanish conquest of Central America, religion was explicitly invoked to justify them.
3. Evolution does not promote social Darwinism or racism or eugenics.

Source: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA006_1.html

 

[Miss Anthrope]

I'm going to ask some of the posters to take a deep breath and back away from getting personal.

ETA: I have split this derail over to AAH and closed it.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Miss Anthrope

 

[Safe-Keeper]

"States of belief" don't kill a priest, melt down a church bell, and close down a cathedral.

Pardon me for stating the obvious, but there have been many religious wars in which believers, from countries founded on religion, have done far worse things to cathedrals than close them?

come off it, Hitler was never a genuine Christian, he had little real interest in religion. If he had been a genuine Christian he would have loved his fellow man as himself, regardless of jew, christian, gypsy or anything else.

any occurences you can tell me of when Hitler went to Church?

As has been pointed out to you, this is a No True Scotsman fallacy. It's derived from this scenario:
Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Press and Journal and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." The next day he sits down to read his Press and Journal again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing."
In short, you're saying that because Hitler didn't conform to your vision of how Christians should behave, he's not a real Christian. I'm not getting into whether or not he was, I'm just pointing out that your reasoning is very flawed. I myself have believed in God without attending church weekly.

Oh, and if you have to a church-goer to be a Christian, it should bother you that for all the religion permeating American culture, church attendance there is a measly 21%. Or is it necessary to tithe to be a Christian? Because 97% of American Christians don't. Yet many of them definitely are believing Christians nonetheless.

There's a problem when a group of people declare things as superstition that must be destroyed; they try and destroy it.

Good thing this is a very rare event, then. Most atheists are content with leaving religion alone. Some, however, feel it does more harm than good. Some of those, in turn, would like it see it disappear. And then a few of those, in turn, want to actively convince people through peaceful means to abandon it. But destroying religion? By force? Not even Richard Dawkins, despite his very strong words, comes close to making such a statement.

You know, the sad thing here is that I was hoping my post (Post #2 in this thread) would have some sort of effect. I see now it's done nothing at all. Everyone is going on about how secular countries are evil and how atheists don't have a reason to be moral - just like before my post. It's almost as if they didn't even read it.

 

[Ducky]

so you see yourself as a "Skeptic" yet believe every word uttered by Hitler

Strawman, I've never made either statements.

You seem to focus on this christianity thing with hitler, and if you read back, I've already addressed this point. Hitler clearly believed in God, past that whether he used christian or islamic rhetoric is irrelevant. Once you believe in God, you're not an atheist.

QED.

 

[DOC]

Originally Posted by DOC
Once again the church members of St. Basils in 1918 would have strongly disagreed.

And they would have been wrong. Attacking a religious leader does not make one an atheist. After all, theists attack other theists all the time.

Yea but they don't kill them, confiscate their property, and close down their church.

http://www.moscow-taxi.com/churches/st-basils-cathedral.html

 

[Miss Anthrope]

Originally Posted by DOC
Once again the church members of St. Basils in 1918 would have strongly disagreed.




Yea but they don't kill them, confiscate their property, and close down their church.

http://www.moscow-taxi.com/churches/st-basils-cathedral.html

The Thirty Years War, between Catholics and Lutherans?
The French Wars of Religion (Protestant Hugonauts versus Catholics?)

 

[autumn1971]

DOC, have you no awareness of the Arian heresy, and how for about a hundred years church leaders regularly led pograms against the other side (in this case, trinitarians v. non-trinitarians) resulting in murders, excommunications of entire bishoprics, and a total atmosphere of justified killing?
Oh, wait, since the members of St. Basil's church are not involved, this period is irrelevant to the argument that theistic, as well as atheistic, views can lead to slaughter.

 

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by DOC
Once again the church members of St. Basils in 1918 would have strongly disagreed.




Yea but they don't kill them, confiscate their property, and close down their church.

http://www.moscow-taxi.com/churches/st-basils-cathedral.html

Really? Huh.

Aside from Miss Anthrope's examples what about:

* The ethnic cleansing of the Assyrian Christian population from Eastern Anatolia by Kurdish tribes, in 1842-1847. Source.

Think those theists left the churches open, and didn't take the land of those they killed and expelled?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Yea but they don't kill them, confiscate their property, and close down their church.

What about this? OK, never mind that, what about the numerous Holy Wars throughout history? What about Christians forcibly converting whole nations? How can you, after all religious fanatics have done to each others throughout history, manage to call atheists evil for melting a single church bell?

I must be missing your point somehow. Let me know if this is the case.

 

[autumn1971]

Actually, getting back to the OP, all of the counter-examples that Miss Anthrope and Ducky put forward are examples of a government basing itself on a theistic view. I still fail to see how a government that happens to be atheistic bases its actions on atheism. The communists who destroyed St. Basil's and murdered its clergy were acting according to their communist ideology. The fact that, if asked, they would very probably have identified themselves as atheists, does not address the OP, which is concerned with societies "based" on atheism.

 

[Wolfman]

...does not address the OP, which is concerned with societies "based" on atheism.

Please read this post before you attempt any more argument in this direction.

 

[DOC]

Originally Posted by plumjam
Did Hitler's ideology contain Darwinism?

No.

The Real Ideological Root of Terrorism
DARWINISM AND MATERIALISM

by HARUN YAHYA

"A strong Darwinist influence can be seen in Nazi ideologues. When one examines this theory, which was given shape by Adolf Hitler and Alfred Rosenberg, one comes across such concepts as 'natural selection,' 'selected mating,' and 'the struggle for survival between the races,' which are repeated dozens of time in The Origin of Species. When calling his book Mein Kampf (My Struggle), Hitler was inspired by the Darwinist struggle for survival and the principle that victory went to the fittest. He particularly talks about the struggle between the races:

http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/darwinism_materialism.html


Yes, when you think about it all that Nazi "Master race" stuff and the programs where Gestapo officers had sex with unmarried woman to produce more super Arian babies (selected mating) fit in nicely with Darwin's 'survival of the fittest" (aka natural selection).

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Plumjam, isn't saying Hitler was not a genuine Christian because he committed atrocities (or whatever) the same as saying any of these murderous "communist" governments weren't genuinely communist?

Do you consider St. Peter to be a "genuine Christian"? Have you read about the early Christian church under his leadership? It most certainly was communist. To join, you had to sell all your possessions and surrender the proceeds to the collective where it was apportioned out based on need. In brief, see Acts 2: 44-45:

And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

In fact, if you held some back, it was really, really bad (because God doesn't like rugged individuals--or didn't in those days). Here's the account of a guy and his wife who tried that as told in Acts 5: 1-11:

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

So communism does not equal atheism. And if you want to compare historical acts of cruelty, I do believe that theists are way out in front.

 

[articulett]

I know religionists like to lie to promote jesus, but Hitler considered himself a Christian and dislike atheists. Stalin was raised by Jesuits. You can' define a group by what they don't believe in numbskull-- regimes are about the ideals that unite them. Stupidity seems to be a major requirement of whatever regime keeps spreading these lies about Hitler being an atheist. Also, "social darwinism" has nothing to do Darwin... nor the facts about evolution, you troglodyte.

Here's a quote or two for you to ponder (and ignore):

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." [From Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf".]

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter." (From Adolf Hitler's "My New Order".)

Now of course, although Hitler's willing executioners were primarily Christian, and Christian dogma mightily contributed to anti-Semitism, not all Christians (these days) are bigots. However, it is clear that saying "Tyrants and dictators will accept no other gods before them" is an outright fiction and an insulting explanation for tyranny to those who accept no Gods.

http://nyhumanist.org/inquirer/0406inquirerjun01.htm

 

[Miss Anthrope]

Yes, when you think about it all that Nazi "Master race" stuff and the programs where Gestapo officers had sex with unmarried woman to produce more super Arian babies (selected mating) fit in nicely with Darwin's 'survival of the fittest" (aka natural selection).

Yes, however, Darwin didn't say any such thing, did he?

 

[AOK Tiger]

Empath = Morals .. NOT GOD !

Plumjam,

Just back on your point about “where do atheists get morals from”.

It is simple really… EMPATHY.

I KNOW what hurts me so I know the same thing will also hurt others.

If it hurts others it is morally WRONG.. simple isn’t it.

You may say but yes if I perpetrate these wrongs in spite of knowing how bad they are who will punish me if no God exists !!!

Again.. simple.. society will set laws that stop people doing wrong things to others (hurting them).. and create punishments that reflect the wrongdoings.

This is EXACTLY what happens in a normal secular society.

NO NEED FOR IDIOTIC AFTERLIFE PUNISHMENTS TO ENFORCE MORALS !

Here’s a simple equation to sum up : (empathy = morals, morals enforced by laws)

 

[DOC]

So communism does not equal atheism.

Well yes, there is a separate style communism known as "Christian communism." They even have a article on Wiki

But Soviet style communism sure equaled atheism. Here's an interesting blog that looks to be coming from a (real deal) eyewitness of what went on.

"Arkan is not an Islamic name, and I am not a jackass. It is the name of a Serb. I got the picture from a Chechen Jihad site. I did not notice the camo or the boots. I just took it for what they said it was. The Northern Alliance are Mujahideen. Why are we helping them. I know that Stalin deported the Chechen people from their homes. The Soviets closed the Chechen people's mosques and churchs and forced collective farming on to them, and stole their property. Why can not the Chechens have a independent country? Also, I am not liberal. I am a right wing Roman Catholic. I hate communist more than I hate other religions. Where did all the Russian communists go. I never saw any trials of those Godless communists criminals. Mr. Putin was a communist. I don't trust any former communist.

http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-30678.html

 

[wollery]

The church members of St. Basils Cathedral in 1918 would have disagreed with you.

"States of belief" don't kill a priest, melt down a church bell, and close down a cathedral.

http://www.moscow-taxi.com/churches/st-basils-cathedral.html

Because, of course, good christians would never persecute or kill other christians, or desecrate christian holy ground would they. I mean no christian ruler would get rid of hundreds of religious buildings, turning out their occupants and selling off their goods, simply because they were the "wrong" flavour of christianity, would they?. And they certainly wouldn't kill priests simply for practising their religion, would they?

Or would they?

History is interesting stuff, isn't it DOC?

 

[wollery]

Well yes, there is a separate style communism known as "Christian communism." They even have a article on Wiki

But Soviet style communism sure equaled atheism. Here's an interesting blog that looks to be coming from a (real deal) eyewitness of what went on.

"Arkan is not an Islamic name, and I am not a jackass. It is the name of a Serb. I got the picture from a Chechen Jihad site. I did not notice the camo or the boots. I just took it for what they said it was. The Northern Alliance are Mujahideen. Why are we helping them. I know that Stalin deported the Chechen people from their homes. The Soviets closed the Chechen people's mosques and churchs and forced collective farming on to them, and stole their property. Why can not the Chechens have a independent country? Also, I am not liberal. I am a right wing Roman Catholic. I hate communist more than I hate other religions. Where did all the Russian communists go. I never saw any trials of those Godless communists criminals. Mr. Putin was a communist. I don't trust any former communist.

http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-30678.html

Bolding mine.

That's certainly an unbiased opinion.