Why political systems based on atheism kill several times more citizens

[Tricky]

So atheism is a positive belief in the absence of a god, and a positive belief in the lack of any system of morality that the existence of a God might bring about?

No, atheism is the lack of belief in god.

I advise you abandon this tack on these boards. We've seen it many many times before and are well equipped to gently and positively show you the error of such a statement.

 

[plumjam]

No, because theism is a positive belief, not a lack of belief. In fact there is even a word for it: Theocracy. There is no corresponding word for atheist-based governments.

By the way, since you are playing so fast-and-loose with Aldus Huxley, (who indeed was not an atheist), you might want to read an actual link to something he said which shows his distrust of theistic governments.

I can give you several examples of political systems based on theism (Iran being one). Can you give me an example of one based on atheism?

Cheers for that Huxley quote, with which I wholeheartedly agree. No, I agree he wasn't an atheist, and nor am I... he spent several years in a religious organisation to which I belonged too.
Can I give you an example of a government based on atheism? Well, it isn't so terribly difficult, how about Stalin's Soviet Union, Chairman Mao's China, Pol Pot's Cambodia, or Kim Il Sung's North Korea?... (incidentally the 4 most murderous political regimes per capita in human history)

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Individual atheists deny or accept different morals sets as they see fit.

When thinking of atheism and theism, think of it as various government systems compared with anarchy. Political systems such as liberalism and communism have a set of doctrines on politics, economics, rights, property ownership, and so on.

Anarchy, on the other hand, is merely the absence of any kind of government. As such, it's got no rules on who does what, or who owns what. Such rules are up to the people to make. Likewise, atheism is merely the absence of religion, and as such, has no rules.

It's a crude comparison, especially as a country can be based on anarchy, but you get the point. Note that I'm not an anarchist, though.

Either way, you can't found a country on atheism. You can found a country and say that it'll be secular, but that's the closest you get.

Stalin's Soviet Union: Stalin didn't found the Soviet Union, Lenin did. And he based it on Communism.
Chairman Mao's China: Likewise. Mao used Communism as the basis for the People's Republic of China. Before the birth of the People's Republic, China was a dictatorship under Generalissimo Chiang-Kai Shek.
Pol Pot's Cambodia: Communist.
Kim Il Sung's North Korea: Based on a Communist system unique in that it glorifies Kim Il-Sung and Kim Jong-Il as gods. Both have magical powers and perform miracles, and Kim Il-Sung is thought to still be alive, 'resting' in the middle of his giant tomb.

None of these are based on atheism. All but North Korea has secularism as a major pillar, but were not founded on it. Keep in mind that the Republic is also secular in nature, making no mention of religion. The US was founded as a secular nation, with separation of Church and State. Isn't it also based on atheism, then, in your eyes?

 

[I less than three logic]

No, atheism is the lack of belief in god.

I advise you abandon this tack on these boards. We've seen it many many times before and are well equipped to gently and positively show you the error of such a statement.

You may find some that will gladly skip the gently part though.

 

[plumjam]

Individual atheists deny or accept different morals sets as they see fit.

When thinking of atheism and theism, think of it as various government systems compared with anarchy. Political systems such as liberalism and communism have a set of doctrines on politics, economics, rights, property ownership, and so on.

Anarchy, on the other hand, is merely the absence of any kind of government. As such, it's got no rules on who does what, or who owns what. Such rules are up to the people to make. Likewise, atheism is merely the absence of religion, and as such, has no rules.

It's a crude comparison, especially as a country can be based on anarchy, but you get the point. Note that I'm not an anarchist, though.

Either way, you can't found a country on atheism. You can found a country and say that it'll be secular, but that's the closest you get.

well, it's an intelligent reply, and a nice try,

but the fact remains that there HAVE been societies whose fundamental beliefs have included atheism... and these societies, and ONLY these societies have proven to be the most murderous and disregardful of the value of human life of all societies in known human history, might this just be some kind of coincidence?

 

[thaiboxerken]

but the fact remains that there HAVE been societies whose fundamental beliefs have included atheism...

No, there hasn't. Atheism isn't a belief. How would someone found a society based on a lack of belief? Also, plenty of theistic societies have nad muderous disregard for human life, some of these societies still exist today.

 

[plumjam]

You may find some that will gladly skip the gently part though.

sure, go ahead, please try me

 

[Fredrik]

Wow, the argument presented in post #1 is just amazingly bad. It's so obviously false that it makes no sense to argue against it.

 

[I less than three logic]

sure, go ahead, please try me

Try what? Never said I would, just saying there are some more polite than others. Just like anywhere else. If you keep up the nonsense I'm sure you'll meet some of them.

 

[Tricky]

sure, go ahead, please try me

Apart from their lack of belief in God or gods (which is simply the definition of atheism), can you name me a single other tenet of atheism?

If not, what would a government based on athiesm stand for?

 

[Foster Zygote]

The Nazi's were not atheist. Try again, Plumjam.

If they weren't atheists then surely they would have mentioned God somewhere.

 

[plumjam]

No, there hasn't. Atheism isn't a belief. How would someone found a society based on a lack of belief? Also, plenty of theistic societies have nad muderous disregard for human life, some of these societies still exist today.

sorry, but this is just nonsensical... atheism is the BELIEF that there is no God

 

[Carnegiea]

Wasn't a state-controlled economy the big idea behind communism? And while religious people in communist countries were often repressed, ridiculed or jailed they weren't killed off en masse in any way that I'm aware of.

The Nazi persecution and genocide of the Jews more about taking a centuries-old European tradition of antisemitism to an extreme -- killing Jews instead of deporting them or confining them -- than over religious differences. In Nazi propaganda the Jews were portrayed as subhuman. They had a term for it: Untermensch. This included pretty much anyone who wasn't "Aryan".

I'm not aware of any cases where a self-professed atheist has killed a theist or a groups of theists over religious differences.

 

[DOC]

How does one base a society on atheism?! You do realize that atheism is simply a state of belief and nothing more, don't you?

The church members of St. Basils Cathedral in 1918 would have disagreed with you.

"Early in this century the cathedral almost fell prey to the atheist principles of the Bolshevik regime. In 1918 the communist authorities shot the church's senior priest, Ioann Vostorgov, confiscated its property, melted down its bells and closed the cathedral down."

http://www.moscow-taxi.com/churches/st-basils-cathedral.html

 

[I less than three logic]

sorry, but this is just nonsensical... atheism is the BELIEF that there is no God

This has been addressed ad nauseam and, quite simply, you are wrong. Please catch up on previous threads on this subject instead of dragging another one down that path.

 

[thaiboxerken]

The church members of St. Basils Cathedral in 1918 would have disagreed with you.

They would be wrong to.

 

[plumjam]

If they weren't atheists then surely they would have mentioned God somewhere.

the Nazis did try to use the population's belief in God to their own ends. Not a single senior Nazi was a sincere believer in God. If any of you can furnish me with a quote from Hitler, Goebbels, Goering, Himmler, Bormann, Speer, Heydrich or any of the rest of them which shows anything other than a possibly useful use of God in some political speech, then I'd be intrigued

 

[Tricky]

sorry, but this is just nonsensical... atheism is the BELIEF that there is no God

No, atheism is the LACK OF BELIEF that there is a God or gods. It may seem like a subtle difference, but it is very important. Again, what is a tenet of atheism? What is their position on monarchy? What about division of wealth? Who do atheists feel should be allowed to vote?

Note: You will be expected to support your position with evidence.

 

[Tricky]

the Nazis did try to use the population's belief in God to their own ends. Not a single senior Nazi was a sincere believer in God. If any of you can furnish me with a quote from Hitler, Goebbels, Goering, Himmler, Bormann, Speer, Heydrich or any of the rest of them which shows anything other than a possibly useful use of God in some political speech, then I'd be intrigued.

Any quote we give you is going to be construed as "political" by you, but from the link above, how about this one:

I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.

But now you are claiming to have personal knowledge of whether or not a person's statements were sincere. I must ask how you came by this knowledge.

 

[DOC]

Really? Could you give us an example of a political system that is based on atheism? No, don't mention communism. It is in no sense based on atheism. It is secular.

Once again the church members of St. Basils in 1918 would have strongly disagreed.