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Metatheory and the NIST report

Remember, Beachnut--
Reality is for people who are afraid of drugs...

ETA: What these people don't understand is that an event that has actually occurred has a probability of 1.00000000 of having happened.
Regardless of how small the probability of each event occurring, it did, and all the low probability events following after the first resulting in the final event each have a 1.0 probability of having happened.

You confused the words occured and cause.
We all know the collapses occured :rolleyes: But the cause is what my post was referring to, WRT probabilities.

So can you address that, or do you think it is "irrelevant" like seemingly anything that doesn't fit the pre-determined theory?
 
truthers try math and fail

He did it. He really went and did it. He actually went there.​



Farewell, cruel forum, for I have died laughing.​


879046ae642be94f7.jpg
It is funny reading math challenged truthers try to use stats to do anything.
 
You confused the words occured and cause.
We all know the collapses occured :rolleyes: But the cause is what my post was referring to, WRT probabilities.

So can you address that, or do you think it is "irrelevant" like seemingly anything that doesn't fit the pre-determined theory?

The probability of it occurring is irrelevent. Once someone decided to trive an airplane into the building at 500kt, the outcome was ordained.
The probability of someone intentionally driving a fully-laden airplane into the building at 500kt was so vanishingly small at the time the building was designed that they did not pay any attention to it or make any allowances for it. That is why it is a low-probability event. Yet it happened.
1 in a billion chances do happen. For example--various individuals win the 54 number lotto with powerball with alarming frequency...

As for "falsifying" the NIST "Theory", all you have to do is find a piece of A36 steel that doesn't get weaker and more flexible with increasing temperature. That'll do the trick, right there.
 
I don't think you get it yet. As Jay said, "Falsifiability is a quality of theories that is irrelevant to the existence of other theories." This statement in context is here.

I was going to link you to my earlier post, but I see that you did it for me... You will, therefore, note that it was I who explained to all of you that a hypothesis could be falsified even in the absence of competing hypotheses. Nowhere have I backtracked from that position.

You are still klinging to that the NIST theory was compared to other theories somehow demonstrating falsifiability. It's the only (albiet bogus) falsifiability criteria you have provided. We are all learning here. Right now it's your turn.

Clinging? Hardly. It simply makes for the most efficient demonstration. Being actually tested against an alternate theory is a sufficient, but not necessary, condition for falsifiability.

I use that example simply because virtually everyone is aware of the "pancake" vs. "pull-in" theories, and virtually everyone is aware that NIST tested these two hypotheses, finding one to be false and the other true. As I said before, the existence of this test proves beyond ANY DOUBT that the NIST hypothesis is falsifiable. To deny this, you have to either prove that such a test never took place, or resort to sophistry and somehow claim that the NIST hypothesis lost its character of falsifiability afterwards.

Sufficient but not necessary, Greg. C'mon, you could have figured that out. :D

Tell you what. I'm in a charitable mood today, and I was trained as an experimentalist. You may pick any feature from the NIST hypothesis -- large or small, detailed or coarse, sound or speculative -- and I will tell you how to devise an experimental test of that hypothesis. Anything. The only ground rule is that it must actually be a part of the NIST hypothesis, and I insist upon references to the Report.

This won't even be hard.

On Monday I leave for the Cape for a week, so if you don't have anything until after then, you may have to wait for a reply.
 
As I'm sure you know, when "many, many events" need to happen sequentially in order to get a certain result, you would calculate or estimate a value (smaller or equal to 1) for each event, and multipy them together to give you the probability of that result occuring.

So, regarding the NIST tests - the greater the number of 'events' which need to happen sequentially in order for collapse to occur, the lower is the probability of it happening the way NIST described.

Then you have to multiply by a similar probability for the 2nd. collapse...

(and 3rd collapse)

Ever heard of the lottery?

I've studied probability, stochastic systems, chaos theory, statistical mechanics, and Monte Carlo methods. Please describe your "probability" model in more detail, if you wish us to take you seriously.
 
I've studied probability, stochastic systems, chaos theory, statistical mechanics, and Monte Carlo methods. Please describe your "probability" model in more detail, if you wish us to take you seriously.

I merely pointed out the paradox evident in the post from rwguinn [ post # 651] where he said : "...it took many, many events, sequentially occurring, to cause collapse."

He was trying give Jay Howard a reason why it's not easy to describe NIST theory's veracity.

The more of these "many, many" sequential events it took, the more unlikely that occurence. [occurence as claimed by NIST]
Assuming it did occur as NIST claimed, presumably the same, or similar sequence, had to occur for the 2nd tower.
He just answered that "it happen, prob.= 1" ( or as he put it, 1.000000 :D )

I also mentioned the 3rd collapse, meaning, regardless of NIST, it's interesting to look at probabilities, assign a few estimated values to the various events in the chain of 9/11

It looks like you don't need telling anything about probabilities, especially from me... so maybe you could explain a few simple things, re the above?
 
You confused the words occured and cause.
We all know the collapses occured :rolleyes: But the cause is what my post was referring to, WRT probabilities.

So can you address that, or do you think it is "irrelevant" like seemingly anything that doesn't fit the pre-determined theory?

What is the probability that the cockpit of the next airplane you fly in will get hit with a 2 Meter diameter meteorite?
Vanishingly small, right? effectively zero, will you agree?
But if it does, the probability of the flight crew being killed is very close to 1. The probability of the aircraft remaining controlable is near zero. And the probability of a crash, killing all on board will be essentially 1--a certainty.
Once 1 of the events, regardless of its probability of happening, occurrs, the result follows as a very near certainty.
Same with the towers. Once the improbable happened--an fully-laden aircraft diven into it at 500 knots: Destruction of and/or damage to structural elements in the building--P=1. Damage to the fire-suppression system: P->1. A multi-story fire became a certainty. Damage to the building prevented firefighters access to the damaged and burning areas.

Now, if you can't follow that, I'm done with you.
 
The more of these "many, many" sequential events it took, the more unlikely that occurence. [occurence as claimed by NIST]
Assuming it did occur as NIST claimed, presumably the same, or similar sequence, had to occur for the 2nd tower.
He just answered that "it happen, prob.= 1" ( or as he put it, 1.000000 :D )

I also mentioned the 3rd collapse, meaning, regardless of NIST, it's interesting to look at probabilities, assign a few estimated values to the various events in the chain of 9/11

It looks like you don't need telling anything about probabilities, especially from me... so maybe you could explain a few simple things, re the above?
I need more detail.

Exactly how many of these "many, many" sequential things are there?

With what probability? How are these probabilities estimated?

Are there any alternate paths?

Depending on the answers to the above, this probabilistic trajectory of events could be extremely low in overall likelihood, or extremely high. Until we settle this, we can't use this as an argument one way or the other.

Also, given that the NIST report can be partially rebaselined all the way through the event path by observations, treating it as a truly random sequence is disingenuous. But we'll get to that later, if we need to. Details from you first.
 
The probability of it occurring is irrelevent. Once someone decided to trive an airplane into the building at 500kt, the outcome was ordained.
<snip>

As for "falsifying" the NIST "Theory", all you have to do is find a piece of A36 steel that That'll do the trick, right there.

Sorry, that's wrong...
Being as there is no A36 steel that doesn't get weaker and more flexible with increasing temperature, that wouldn't falsify the theory.

What Jay Howard was saying is if you can't falsify the theory, it's not a valid theory.
Any theory that's "unfalsifiable" has no value.
 
I need more detail.

Exactly how many of these "many, many" sequential things are there?

With what probability? How are these probabilities estimated?

Are there any alternate paths?

Depending on the answers to the above, this probabilistic trajectory of events could be extremely low in overall likelihood, or extremely high. Until we settle this, we can't use this as an argument one way or the other.

Also, given that the NIST report can be partially rebaselined all the way through the event path by observations, treating it as a truly random sequence is disingenuous. But we'll get to that later, if we need to. Details from you first.

As you are not a stranger to theory of probabilities and, I assume unbiased, I would expect you to be interested in looking at the events surrounding 9/11 from a probabilistic angle.

I would be interested in some estimates regarding various chains of events, and how probable you think they are. For example, you could look at the likelyhood of the collapse mechanism being as NIST claims, for not just one, but two towers etc.
 
As you are not a stranger to theory of probabilities and, I assume unbiased, I would expect you to be interested in looking at the events surrounding 9/11 from a probabilistic angle.

I would be interested in some estimates regarding various chains of events, and how probable you think they are. For example, you could look at the likelyhood of the collapse mechanism being as NIST claims, for not just one, but two towers etc.

Oh, I have, but I asked you first. Surely you didn't bring up this line of argument while having no idea of what those probabilities were, did you?

Let's hear it.
 
1

As you are not a stranger to theory of probabilities and, I assume unbiased, I would expect you to be interested in looking at the events surrounding 9/11 from a probabilistic angle.

I would be interested in some estimates regarding various chains of events, and how probable you think they are. For example, you could look at the likelyhood of the collapse mechanism being as NIST claims, for not just one, but two towers etc.
OK

Flying planes into buildings after having a ticket from the FAA to fly at the commercial pilot level, 100 percent. I tested kids off the street with no flying capabilities at all in a simulator, they all hit the building. Also, there are examples on line of novice pilots hitting the Pentagon, first time.

Profanity of hitting the largest office buildings in the world, about 1. Unless you are attacked by heroes.

Fire destroying the strength of steel. Probability 1, 100 percent, This is easy.

Building destroying itself as if falls, due to gravity. 100 percent, this is the way CD does it, they use gravity to destroy the building.

1 times, times 1, times 1, is 1. 100 percent on 9/11
 
Oh, I have, but I asked you first. Surely you didn't bring up this line of argument while having no idea of what those probabilities were, did you?

Let's hear it.
I have to log off for now, :D



I'm by no means an authority on this subject, and it's not easy to do any meaningful calculations on something like this...

When somebody is on trial for a crime, it would be nice if we could always calculate mathematically the probability of guilt.
Instead we have to make do with something like "beyond reasonable doubt" etc.
Anyhow I must log off for now,
...later
 
When somebody is on trial for a crime, it would be nice if we could always calculate mathematically the probability of guilt.
Instead we have to make do with something like "beyond reasonable doubt" etc.
Anyhow I must log off for now,
...later

If this is meant to be a suspicion that the probability argument isn't the way to go, then you would be correct. It isn't.

The correct way is to track uncertainty in our experiments. All measurements have uncertainties. Those uncertainties can sometimes be propagated mathematically, other times they have to be estimated through experiments. Example, the three different impact cases NIST ran, reflecting uncertainties on the severity of impact.

At each stage, you try to compare the outcomes to other observations to help understand the "best fit" of model versus actual occurrence. This was done at numerous stages -- the debris seen at impact, the windows breaking and spread of fires, the bowing seen in perimeter columns, etc. All of these observations were used to help define the "bounding envelope" of possible cases. Where observations don't exist, we perform what is called sensitivity testing, where we vary our models to see how dependent they are on specific values. Whether or not one bowls a strike is extremely sensitive to the initial vector of a bowling ball. Whether or not one survives a fall from an airplane without a parachute is extremely insensitive to the exact velocity or altitude of the airplane. And so on.

Having estimated errors in the inputs, run bounding cases, and compared the experiment at all phases to other observables, we can say with full confidence that the ultimate outcome -- the collapses -- were expected over a wide range of inputs. It wouldn't have made much difference if the aircraft hit at about 480 MPH (as in WTC 1) or 550 MPH (WTC 2). It wouldn't have mattered much if they hit with 10,000 gallons of fuel on board or 20,000 gallons. The exact time it took each tower to fall is sensitive to such things, but the ultimate outcome is only slightly sensitive.

That's the way it's done in the real world. Probability of occurence is not the right language. The right term is uncertainty in the experiment. We can turn that uncertainty into a probability in some cases. Rigorously estimating uncertainty for something so gross and ill-defined as "if I hit a WTC Tower with an airliner, will it collapse" is tricky, since there are so many variables, but qualitative error estimation as done by NIST provides the correct qualitative answer, which is "it's quite likely."

Anyone who thinks they have a probabilistic argument against, please present it, because I doubt there are any.
 
Sorry, that's wrong...
Being as there is no A36 steel that doesn't get weaker and more flexible with increasing temperature, that wouldn't falsify the theory.

What Jay Howard was saying is if you can't falsify the theory, it's not a valid theory.
Any theory that's "unfalsifiable" has no value.


You appear to be confused about the meaning of "falsifiability."

The theory of universal gravitation would be falsified if a mass were found that did not attract other masses in proportion to the inverse square of the distance.

Therefore the theory of universal gravitation is falsifiable.

An argument that there is no mass [that we know of] that doesn't attract other masses in proportion to the inverse square of the distance does not show universal gravitation unfalsifiable. It only shows that it is, so far, correct -- that is, it has not yet been falsified.

Similarly, the lack of evidence for the existence of A36 steel that does not weaken with increasing temperature doesn't make that portion of the NIST collapse theory unfalsifiable, it simply means that it has not yet been falsified on that particular basis.

By equating "falsifiable" with "actually falsified," your argument is tantamount to claiming that no theory can be valid unless it's been shown to be false.

A few other findings that could falsify NIST's collapse theory:

- Tests showing that the bolts connecting the floor trusses to the outer columns would have broken rather than transfer torque from sagging floors to the outer columns.

- Tests showing that the spray-on fireproofing was resistant to mechanical abrasion, instead of sensitive to it.

- Dynamical analysis showing that the collapse initiation mechanism they describe would not produce the observed rotations of the upper masses.

- Evidence that the entire contents of the impact floors were noncombustible.

- Evidence that the buildings' sprinkler systems were in working order and had adequate capacity to control the fires.

The fact that evidence exists to the contrary of each of these possibilities for falsification does not make the theory unfalsifiable. It makes it, instead, extremely likely to be correct.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
OK

Flying planes into buildings after having a ticket from the FAA to fly at the commercial pilot level, 100 percent. I tested kids off the street with no flying capabilities at all in a simulator, they all hit the building. Also, there are examples on line of novice pilots hitting the Pentagon, first time.

Is that right? I remember being all over the place my first time in a flight simulator. It was for an F-14 when I was in the Navy. I was in a mechanics course and we were taken over to the simulator as a treat.

Fire destroying the strength of steel. Probability 1, 100 percent, This is easy.

Uh, this is a relative effect and depends on the intensity of the fire and the heat transfer in the structure. It doesn't usually happen in steel framed structure fires, especially those of such short duration as experienced by the towers. Please explain why NIST has virtually no physical evidence for high steel temperatures.

In fact, I just noticed something interesting in the Madrid Windsor building fire. While it is true that there was a partial collapse of the outside of the top ten stories, after a raging inferno of 24 hours, it seems when you look close at the photos that the floor trusses aren't sagging. Isn't that interesting!

Building destroying itself as if falls, due to gravity. 100 percent, this is the way CD does it, they use gravity to destroy the building.

You forget to mention that CD does it with a little help from that nasty word around here "explosives". CD isn't happening without "explosives" first to take away the designed in resistance to gravity and then gravity assist.
 
OK



Is that right? I remember being all over the place my first time in a flight simulator. It was for an F-14 when I was in the Navy. I was in a mechanics course and we were taken over to the simulator as a treat.



Uh, this is a relative effect and depends on the intensity of the fire and the heat transfer in the structure. It doesn't usually happen in steel framed structure fires, especially those of such short duration as experienced by the towers. Please explain why NIST has virtually no physical evidence for high steel temperatures.

In fact, I just noticed something interesting in the Madrid Windsor building fire. While it is true that there was a partial collapse of the outside of the top ten stories, after a raging inferno of 24 hours, it seems when you look close at the photos that the floor trusses aren't sagging. Isn't that interesting!



You forget to mention that CD does it with a little help from that nasty word around here "explosives". CD isn't happening without "explosives" first to take away the designed in resistance to gravity and then gravity assist.
So, then:
What is the difference between using explosives to weaken the structure and using an aircraft and fire to weaken the structure?
 

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