10 story hole in WTC 7

[jaydeehess]

Should i now? This is the first i've heard of it.
Smashing speculation.
Except, ....... stairwells are closed.

Really? When did they say they heard and felt intense vibrations?
In the videos i've seen, neither one of them said that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnF--czW0F8&mode=related&search=

Whenever a witness says they heard an explosion, you guys say they didn't.
If nothing else, you're consistent.

Am I missing something here. I admit to not being in this thread for some time now so maybe I missed it. The video claims that this guy was in the North TOWER, not WTC 7.

I was assuming that this was the same guys who were discussed many pages back who had decided to move down from the office in WTC 7 only to be forced out of the stairwell by dust and smoke by the collapse of one of the towers.

Or perhaps the video is wrong and he is speaking about being in WTC 7 and this is the same guy that was discussed.

As for vibrations, no he says "explosion" and his evidence of an explosion would be loud noise/vibration plus the smoke/dust. He also says the 'explosion' blew them back onto the 8th floor. Odd then that such an explosion would not have roughed him up quite a bit, torn his cloths, cut his face. Apparently he is using some hyperbole in stating he was "blown" back. I wonder if "explosion" is also hyperbole?

initial failure?
Would that be several floors collapsing around a core column or the massive core column snapping like a twig, followed by two other columns failing silently. No, wait a minute, The first column failed and then two more, and then the vertical collapse took about 5 or 6 seconds. and then [minus 1 sec for time delay] there was a clap of thunder, a shock wave ripped thru the building and a second later the bottom caved out, and the building followed.
So the clap of thunder coincides, time wise, with the failure of the other 21 columns, not the initial failure.

Ok, coincides with the beginning of the collapse of the penthouse support, the single largest failure to that point in time in that building.
Better?

Ah yes, the totality of the damages.

But there was no debris damage near columns 79, 80 and 81, you know, the ones under the east penthouse.

The stresses on the building due to the loss of perimeter columns would indeed change the way the building members were stressed THROUGHOUT the entire structure. If I knock down one wall of your home how long will the rest stand Chris? Why would the far wall fail given some later extra stress since there is no damage proximate to it Chris?

No, the stuff about vertical columns not being adversely effected by extreme fires is new.

Except you have been shown that the Cardington tests showed damage to vertical columns AND there still seems to be a requirement to put fire insulation on vertical columns, why is that?

Well now, that's a matter opinion.

Me and Danny and Hugo and Jorg think the videos definitively point to CD.
Then there's Richard Gage and 134 other Architect and Engineers.
[They are not all experts but they all have degrees in Architecture and Engineering]

,, and I and NIST and many others better qualified than I do not see a CD.

Easy to talk in vague generalities.
I have refuted your refutes and i refuse to recant.

It was a summary.
Color me suprised that you refuse to see it any other way than CD.

How 'bout this one:

"They" had 'maintenance' men affix wireless demolition charges to the core columns in the elevator shafts and mechanical floors where no one would see them. [except the 'maintenance' men who installed them]

They used Thermate on columns 79, 80 and 81 because they were so massive. [over 4 tons per floor]
Thermate, as you know, only needs a relatively small explosion to get it started and the sound would be muffled inside a building.

Then they blew all the rest of the core columns together making a sound like a clap of thunder.
This would send a shudder thru the building.
AS the core of the building collapsed, the perimeter columns would not be able to carry the load and they would cave out at the bottom.
The rest of the building would follow.

Easy to talk in vague generalities.
When Chris, did all of this surrepticious planting of differing devices take place? Who did the deed? How was it later detonated? Did the FDNY know it was going to be CD'd? Did Silverstein? Why was this done, what need would be met by demolishing a building that may have been beyond repair (do attempt to be specific - no"oh there was an office of the ABCD Federal Government in the building" or "they might have orchestrated the destruction of the towers from WTC 7")?

The seismic activity attributed to WTC 7 shows constant shaking many seconds prior to the Penthouse movement illustrating that the building was coming apart internally well prior to the penthouse structure sinking.

How about:
a column(s) fails to the west of 79, 80 and 81 due to the combination of initial debris damage and continuing fire damage causing the local flooring to fail until it progresses east to those columns at which time the lateral stress on one or more of them causes them to shift drawing that column structure down. That column was supporting more load than other , proximate, columns due to the equipment in the penthoues, the penthouse collapses sending heavy, dense machinery down through the building gathering speed until it hits the heavy braces at (IIRC) the 1st to 5th floor which fail with a resounding noise, the whole floor shifts and the internal columns under the cantilever trusses fail, the cantilever trusses then tilt failing the entire section of north wall they attach to and the building suffers its complete collapse.

 

[jaydeehess]

So, I checked and yes the two guys are the same that were discussed before who were coming down from the 23rd floor of WTC 7(the one video then is shown to be produced by utter idiots since they place them in the north tower)

These guys had no idea that the tower had collapsed when they were in the stairs. they were part of the NYC emergency coordination office on the 23rd floor and it had been decieded to evacuate. they rightly chose not to use the elevators and instead went via the stairs. You claim the stairs were closed now? How in the hell did you expect the office to be evacuated if not by stairs and not by the inadvisable use of the elevators? Perhaps they should have broken out the parachutes.

Geez Chris, you get worse everytime I come back to this thread.

 

[Norseman]

Evacuation and emergency response operations in WTC 7 is actually covered in NIST NCSTAR 1-8 The Emergency Response Operations chapter 5.9 (page 108 - 111).

The story of Barry Jennings is included, no bombs anywhere, just the towers collapsing.

 

[Christopher7]

Am I missing something here. I admit to not being in this thread for some time now so maybe I missed it. The video claims that this guy was in the North TOWER, not WTC 7.

The video is incorrect.
It was assumed that the guy in this video [Barry Jenkens] was in the North Tower.
That's because someone had originally edited the clip, leaving off the the "Me and Mr. Hesh...." part, and it has been used in several videos.
Whoever put this video together, left it on, but did not make the connection.

Also, The timing means that Barry and Michael are the guys that were rescued by the firefighters who reported "No heavy debris in the lobby".

I was assuming that this was the same guys who were discussed many pages back who had decided to move down from the office in WTC 7 only to be forced out of the stairwell by dust and smoke by the collapse of one of the towers.

Where did you get the "forced out of the stairwell by dust and smoke" ?

Stairwells have self closing doors to prevent that very thing.

The "New Footage" video has been around for a while. In it, Michael Hesh said "Another gentleman and I walked down to the 8th floor and there was an explosion! and we were trapped on the 8th floor. Smoke, thick smoke wrapped(?) around us for about an hour and a half"

Or perhaps the video is wrong and he is speaking about being in WTC 7 and this is the same guy that was discussed.

Right

As for vibrations, no he says "explosion" and his evidence of an explosion would be loud noise/vibration plus the smoke/dust.

Would be? You are assuming that.

He also says the 'explosion' blew them back onto the 8th floor. Odd then that such an explosion would not have roughed him up quite a bit, torn his cloths, cut his face. Apparently he is using some hyperbole in stating he was "blown" back. I wonder if "explosion" is also hyperbole?

Good point.
Also, stairwells have self closing doors.

Both men said there was an explosion. It's not a hyperbole.

Ok, coincides with the beginning of the collapse of the penthouse support, the single largest failure to that point in time in that building.
Better?

No
The clap of thunder occurred about 2 seconds before the bottom caved out. [north wall begins to fall]

1 second for time delay, and 1 second, for
" [FONT=&quot]we heard this sound that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]sounded like a clap of thunder[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ….[/FONT][FONT=&quot]turned around ..... [/FONT][FONT=&quot]it looked like there was a shockwave ripping through the building .... [/FONT][FONT=&quot]about a second later[/FONT][FONT=&quot] the bottom floor caved out "

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]According to NIST, the east penthouse began collapsing 7 seconds before the screenwall and the west penthouse.
About 1/2 second later, the entire north face begins to fall.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot][bottom floor caved out]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot] The north wall began to collapse about 2 seconds after the clap of thunder.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The east penthouse began to fall and about 5[/FONT][FONT=&quot] seconds before the clap of thunder [/FONT]

 

[Christopher7]

Evacuation and emergency response operations in WTC 7 is actually covered in NIST NCSTAR 1-8 The Emergency Response Operations chapter 5.9 (page 108 - 111).

The story of Barry Jennings is included, no bombs anywhere, just the towers collapsing.

Very important point


Both men said there was an explosion.

The NIST report leaves that out.

 

[jaydeehess]

The video is incorrect.
It was assumed that the guy in this video [Barry Jenkens] was in the North Tower.
That's because someone had originally edited the clip, leaving off the the "Me and Mr. Hesh...." part, and it has been used in several videos.
Whoever put this video together, left it on, but did not make the connection.

Ok, injudicious editing and then later just plain sloppy research. That hardly ever happens so I was a little confused about the point. Glad it is all cleared up now.

Also, The timing means that Barry and Michael are the guys that were rescued by the firefighters who reported "No heavy debris in the lobby".

Which is also likely as viewed from one end of the building, but you refuse to entertain that possibility.

Where did you get the "forced out of the stairwell by dust and smoke" ?

Stairwells have self closing doors to prevent that very thing.

Well it is supposed to of course. Perhaps you are old enough to remember a time when stairwell doors closed and locked behind you upon entering the stairwell from an upper floor. this was a security measure in some buildings to prevent unauthorised people from getting around via the stairs. Fire officials complained about the practise. Why? Because anyone entering the stairwell encountering smoke was trapped in the stairwells and this ended up killing people because many stairwells still got a lot of smoke during fires.

In this case we have the collapse of two of the largest buildings in the world next door and severe damage to the building, basically scouring much of the south face,and you are trying to state that the fire doors on all floors would have had to work perfectly and keep out all dust from the event of the WTC 1collapse.

The "New Footage" video has been around for a while. In it, Michael Hesh said "Another gentleman and I walked down to the 8th floor and there was an explosion! and we were trapped on the 8th floor. Smoke, thick smoke wrapped(?) around us for about an hour and a half"

The building was rocked by the impact of debris, the air filled with dust and probably some smoke from the collapse and fires were started all over the vicinity of WTC 7 meaning that smoke would be no big surprise would it?
With no other information to work with other than what they were experiencing ,yeah they and many other people would describe the event as an explosion.

Would be? You are assuming that.

Yes, I am and we also know that CT's insist that all eyewitness statements be taken literally and at face value at every turn.

Good point.

Thank you, for a second I thought you were going to try and tell me that they had been physically thrown through the door onto the 8th floor. At least this is clear to you that such did not occur.

Also, stairwells have self closing doors.

Noted and addressed above.

Both men said there was an explosion. It's not a hyperbole.

No reason to assume it wasn't or at the very least a mistake made in the extreme nature of the situation they were in.

The clap of thunder occurred about 2 seconds before the bottom caved out. [north wall begins to fall]


1 second for time delay, and 1 second, for
" [FONT=&quot]we heard this sound that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]sounded like a clap of thunder[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ….[/FONT][FONT=&quot]turned around ..... [/FONT][FONT=&quot]it looked like there was a shockwave ripping through the building .... [/FONT][FONT=&quot]about a second later[/FONT][FONT=&quot] the bottom floor caved out "

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]According to NIST, the east penthouse began collapsing 7 seconds before the screenwall and the west penthouse.
About 1/2 second later, the entire north face begins to fall.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot][bottom floor caved out]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot] The north wall began to collapse about 2 seconds after the clap of thunder.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The east penthouse began to fall and about 5[/FONT][FONT=&quot] seconds before the clap of thunder [/FONT]

Oh, my bad, yes a column fails with a loud crack or boom(it is not likely to be a chime or a hiss) and the consequence is a shortening of the column structure under the penthouse(perhaps evidenced from the side of the building as a "shockwave ripping " through the building, the penthouse sinks and crashes through the building and the north wall fails. The video evidence of the penthouse sinking and then the north wall collapseing gives enough time for heavy debris to have fallen 40 to the level of the cantilever trusses and their attendant inner columns. aside fron the initial failure, the rest is going to be a rather distinct roar.

The north wall failed several seconds after the penthouse sinking, I am not at all convinced that the timing of events expressed by the witnesses is particularily accurate but you, well, there is that eyewitness statements being taken at literal face value again.

No, still no real requirement for CD as far as the physical collapse goes and certainly no senario as to how, why, when or who carried out the supposed Cd that makes any sense whatsoever.

 

[jaydeehess]

Very important point


Both men said there was an explosion.

The NIST report leaves that out.

Yeah, and no one at al said anything about bombs ,,,, except Norseman, in his above post.

Neither Jenkins or Hesh said bombs went off , they characterized what they experienced as an explosion, a relatively generic term, and Norseman just recharacterized it as being caused by a bomb, a relatively specific term.

Perhaps Norseman really doesn't mean a "bomb" but he said it, and that is the way we humans work. We tend to put our own slant on both our experiences and those reported to us by others. Truly objective review must take this into account and one must ask if there are alternate valid ways to look at them.

 

[slingblade]

Very important point


Both men said there was an explosion.

The NIST report leaves that out.

OFCOL. "Explosion" doesn't exclusively mean bombs. Even little kids get this. I have used the word "explosion" to describe sounds that I knew positively had nothing to do with literal bomb-like explosives.

It's like my taking your "clap of thunder" quote and pointing out to you over and over and over that the skies were clear that day so there could have been no thunder, and thus your "witness" was a paid-off NWO shill.

Gods, I have got to get more and better hobbies. And so do you, Chris.

 

[A W Smith]

A W Smith has not responded to this post yet.

Nor has anyone else for that matter.

Your comparing Meridian Plaza to wtc7? I wasnt aware Meridiian Plaza had a substation beneath it with complex load transfer trusses.

 

[beachnut]

Tell me again, where I can find Meridian Plaza today?

Many bays away? Source?

NIST Apx. L pg 39 [43 on pg counter]
I4.4 Lateral Displacements: Fire effects may have caused column instability
failure by lateral displacements from asymmetric thermal expansion of the floor system.
Such thermally-induced displacements
must overcome the restraining effect of the remaining floor system
against further lateral deflection of the column.

When expanding steel cannot overcome the restraining effect of the remaining floor system, it will sag or buckle.

Meridian Plaza

http://www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf/Tr-049.pdf
pg 19 [24 on pg counter]

After the fire, there was evident significant structural
damage to horizontal steel members and floor sections on most of the fire
damaged floors. Beams and girders sagged and twisted -- some as much as
three feet -- under severe fire exposures, and fissures developed in the
reinforced concrete floor assemblies in many places.

Despite this extraordinary exposure, the columns continued to support their loads without obvious damage.

http://www.iklimnet.com/hotelfires/meridienplaza_lessons.html
[FONT=&quot]12. Columns and certain other structural elements are normally exposed to fire from all sides. In this fire, the steel columns retained their structural integrity and held their loads. Experience in this and similar high-rise fires suggest that columns are the least vulnerable structural members, due to their mass and relatively short height between restraints (floor to floor). [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Major damage has occurred to horizontal members, without compromising the vertical supports.[/FONT]

Tell me again, where I can find Meridian Plaza? What happen to Meridian Plaza that did not loose the strength?

 

[Norseman]

Very important point


Both men said there was an explosion.

The NIST report leaves that out.

No Christopher7, the NIST report does not leave out the fact that both men said there was an explosion. The report correctly relates what the two men described as an explosion with the collapse of WTC 1 when they arrived at the 6th floor in WTC 7.

Looking at footnote 380 on page 109 and footnote 381 on page 110 in the report I find it very likely that the account in the report is based on an interview with both men. I would expect that during the interview it was clarified what they meant with an explosion.

So far in this thread you have not provided a single evidence to prove that explosives/bombs were involved in the collapse of WTC 7 that stand up to scrutiny.

jaydeehees, I used the word bomb very consciously, because it is my impression that Christopher7 clearly equals explosion with explosives/bombs in this case.

 

[Christopher7]

Which is also likely as viewed from one end of the building, but you refuse to entertain that possibility.

Wrong
The lobby was open end to end. The firefighters could see that there was no heavy debris in the lobby areas from either end of the lobby.

Where did you get the "forced out of the stairwell by dust and smoke" ?
Stairwells have self closing doors to prevent that very thing.

Well it is supposed to of course.
..... anyone entering the stairwell encountering smoke was trapped in the stairwells and this ended up killing people because many stairwells still got a lot of smoke during fires.

True, but there were no fires at time Michael and Barry heard an explosion.


The normal position for stairwell doors is closed.

An explosion would create smoke, dust and debris.

Explosion is the more likely of the two explanations.

the fire doors on all floors would have had to work perfectly and keep out all dust from the event of the WTC 1 collapse.

Not perfectly.

As for vibrations, no he says "explosion" and his evidence of an explosion would be loud noise/vibration plus the smoke/dust.

Would be? You are assuming that.

Yes, I am and we also know that CT's insist that all eyewitness statements be taken literally and at face value at every turn.

I take all eyewitness statements at face value unless there reason to doubt them. [other statements or evidence to the contrary]
This does not mean they constitute proof, but they should be considered as evidence of what happened.
Collaboration by other witnesses gives them more credibility.

Both men said there was an explosion. It's not a hyperbole.

No reason to assume it wasn't or at the very least a mistake made in the extreme nature of the situation they were in.

Meet ya half way

No reason to assume it wasn't an explosion or a mistake made in the extreme nature of the situation they were in.

 

[GlennB]

He (Jowenko) saw the same videos we have all seen.

(bump for Christopher7)

Which video(s) was he shown?

 

[Christopher7]

No Christopher7, the NIST report does not leave out the fact that both men said there was an explosion. The report correctly relates what the two men described as an explosion with the collapse of WTC 1 when they arrived at the 6th floor in WTC 7.

9-11-01
[FONT=&quot]Barry Jenkins "Me and Mr. Hesh[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ...." "Big explosion! Blew us back into the 8th floor."

He probably meant the 8th floor landing. [or, for some reason, he opened the door to the 8th floor]
He described a blast that was more than smoke coming up the stairwell.
The blast, at very least, threw him backwards.

Michael Hesh "another gentleman and i walked down to the 8th floor and there was an explosion! and we were trapped on the 8th floor.

spring 2004NISTNCSTAR1-8
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]As they went to get into an elevator to go downstairs the lights inside of WTC 7 flickered as WTC 2 collapsed. At this point, the elevator they were attempting to catch no longer worked, so they started down the staircase. When they got to the 6th floor, WTC 1 collapsed, the lights went out in the staircase, the sprinklers came on briefly, and the staircase filled with smoke and debris. The two men went back to the 8th floor broke out a window and called for help

On 9/11/01 they both said they got to the 8th floor and there was an explosion.

Three and a half years later, NIST says the 6th floor and does not mention the explosion or address the fact that there was a blast wave that went with that explosion.[/FONT]

Looking at footnote 380 on page 109 and footnote 381 on page 110 in the report I find it very likely that the account in the report is based on an interview with both men. I would expect that during the interview it was clarified what they meant with an explosion.

Clarified by whom? Sounds like they were told it was the collapse of WTC 1.
We don't know what they said.
I would like to see the transcript of that interview.


BTW: there was an explosion about that time
[FONT=&quot]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcRs1fv8i3I[/FONT]

 

[Christopher7]

The north wall failed several seconds after the penthouse sinking,

7 1/2 seconds.

I am not at all convinced that the timing of events expressed by the witnesses is particularily accurate

He said "clap of thunder ...... about a second later the bottom caved out." [add 1 sec. for time delay]
The penthouse had been collapsing for 7 1/2 seconds when the bottom caved out or about 5 seconds before the clap of thunder.
He wasn't that far off.

The collapse was a continuous series of columns failing and floors falling.
At no point in this process would there be a single 'clap of thunder'.

No, still no real requirement for CD as far as the physical collapse goes

It is evidence of a CD.
It was not a single column breaking.
It was an explosion.
By itself, it is not proof but it qualifies as evidence.

and certainly no senario as to how, why, when or who carried out the supposed Cd that makes any sense whatsoever.

Duh

 

[Christopher7]

(bump for Christopher7)

Which video(s) was he shown?

You can figure that out for yourself.

What ever that first one was, it convinced him WTC 7 was a CD.

 

[GlennB]

You can figure that out for yourself.

What ever that first one was, it convinced him WTC 7 was a CD.

Nah - don't wriggle so. You clearly stated he was shown the same videos as the rest of us, so you must know.

I've spoken with many 9/11 CTists who had never seen the video that shows the fall of the E Penthouse. One or two even expressed deep surprise at seeing something that shook their "it's so obvious" standpoint.

So - tell us. Which video(s) was he shown?

 

[twinstead]

It's also not surprising to me that the penthouse collapse part of the total collapse is left out of every video of the event on conspiracy websites.

 

[slingblade]

7 1/2 seconds.

He said "clap of thunder ...... about a second later the bottom caved out." [add 1 sec. for time delay]
The penthouse had been collapsing for 7 1/2 seconds when the bottom caved out or about 5 seconds before the clap of thunder.
He wasn't that far off.

The collapse was a continuous series of columns failing and floors falling.
At no point in this process would there be a single 'clap of thunder'.

You asked for this. Remember that, later.

Those witnesses are lying! The skies were clear that day, so there could have been no thunder.

 

[beachnut]

Not even close for the CD camp on WTC7, another lost cause for 9/11 truth

So far we have solid case for all day fire, leading to collapse. Do not forget the impact damage from the towers. Too bad no one heard some RDX, or found the secret thermite cutters that would have been giant devices against the columns, not easy to hide. I can see the Secret Service now. What is that tripod thing? Oh, says the "NWO" technician, it is a thermite cutting device, do not worry, we have to mount it on the steel column, that is why were are cutting through the wall, so we can attach it to the steel so it does not move away when it burns. What a moronic idea, CD on 9/11. Do we have anyone who believes this incredibly false CD stuff?

Not a single piece of evidence shows anything but fires and a damaged building that fell on 9/11. Even the explosives stuff is real dumb since the fires would cook off the charges. And all the videos do fail as seen over and over to include the entire collapse that takes a lot longer than freefall. The list is too long.

After careful review of the evidence, it was a damaged building fire failure. But carry on truthers, make it up and see if it floats.