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God and capital punishment

Temporal Renegade said:
An article from YAHOO News, about the 'Bible Belt' influence in Texas executions:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070813/ts_nm/texas_executions_dc;_ylt=AlqDeLOaM1qqp92XK8KSxeB34T0D
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Well there is disagreement in the Christian Community. The Catholic Church is against the death penalty, as are the Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and others.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0195.asp


And the article does say that the death penalty is declining nationally, as well as in Texas.

I think of lot of it is the Wild West "dead or alive" attitude down in Texas.
 
DOC said:
Well there is disagreement in the Christian Community. The Catholic Church is against the death penalty, as are the Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and others.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0195.asp


And the article does say that the death penalty is declining nationally, as well as in Texas.

I think of lot of it is the Wild West "dead or alive" attitude down in Texas.
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Man, trying to follow (and make sense of) *one* religious faith was a pain when I was a kid; nowadays, it's downright head-exploding!
 
Temporal Renegade said:
Man, trying to follow (and make sense of) *one* religious faith was a pain when I was a kid; nowadays, it's downright head-exploding!
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Actually when you get down to it the Christian religion is simple as was pointed out by Thomas Jefferson.

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple and tend all to the happiness of man, that there is only one God and God is perfect. That God and man are one. That to love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself, is the sum of religion. These are the great points on which I endeavor to reform and live my life".

Thomas Jefferson


Also there was an interesting quote by Lincoln as well as many other interesting quotes including Einstein and Mother Theresa on the about.com web page

http://healing.about.com/library/uc_terror_0109c.htm


"Without the assistance of the Divine Being---I cannot succeed. With that assistance, I cannot fail."

Abraham Lincoln
 
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Religion aside, death sentence is perfectly just and reasonable for criminals who have murdered someone.
 
JJM 777 said:
Religion aside, death sentence is perfectly just and reasonable for criminals who have murdered someone.
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No, it is not. Life, no parole is a much more reasonable sentence, and is more punishment for the criminal as well.

The death penalty is, to me, indefensible.
 
Christianity should, in theory, be opposed to the death penalty. At the point of death is when your measure is taken, and at that point you are done, and judged (even though you may actually lie dead until the End Times, when you are resurrected and sent to Heaven or Hell.)

In any case, you don't kill someone, because they may not be in a state of Grace, and would then go to eternal HELLFIRE. Christians are not supposed to participate in increasing someone's chance of hellfire. And it wouldn't be their position to enter into calculations like "we should kill person X because they're likely to kill other people, causing them to die not in a state of Grace".
 
Beerina said:
you don't kill someone, because they may not be in a state of Grace, and would then go to eternal HELLFIRE.
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I've never before heard this argument from any religious person, but by that logic, if a murderer reforms and finds God, we should do him the favor of killing him as quickly as possible.

And surely if the saved are already known to God (as Calvinists would have it), then the outcome couldn't possibly be affected.

In any case, it seems pretty clear that the OT God was OK with the death penalty.
 
DOC said:
Actually when you get down to it the Christian religion is simple as was pointed out by Thomas Jefferson.

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple and tend all to the happiness of man, that there is only one God and God is perfect. That God and man are one. That to love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself, is the sum of religion. These are the great points on which I endeavor to reform and live my life".

Thomas Jefferson


Also there was an interesting quote by Lincoln as well as many other interesting quotes including Einstein and Mother Theresa on the about.com web page

http://healing.about.com/library/uc_terror_0109c.htm


"Without the assistance of the Divine Being---I cannot succeed. With that assistance, I cannot fail."

Abraham Lincoln
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Doc, please do not deliberately derail this thread.
 
JJM 777 said:
Religion aside, death sentence is perfectly just and reasonable for criminals who have murdered someone.
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What about the families and friends of the murderer. Is it just and reasonable for them?
 
Katana said:
Or the wrongly-convicted man?
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This is why i oppose the death penalty. Wrongful conviction is a real issue and we are not perfect in our ability to determine guilt.

with that said, i'd suggest that the christian concept of the afterlife actually encourages people to consider the death penalty reasonable.

The afterlife removes responsibility from those convicting the individual. Afterall, if they were wrong, god will forgive and the accused will go to heaven. This is the mentality that allowed the witch trials to progress the way they did.

No, christianity holds no moral objection to the death penalty and as such is morally defficient in this manner.*



*did any one take the bait?:p
 
DOC said:
Actually when you get down to it the Christian religion is simple as was pointed out by Thomas Jefferson.

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple and tend all to the happiness of man, that there is only one God and God is perfect. That God and man are one. That to love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself, is the sum of religion. These are the great points on which I endeavor to reform and live my life".

Thomas Jefferson


Also there was an interesting quote by Lincoln as well as many other interesting quotes including Einstein and Mother Theresa on the about.com web page

http://healing.about.com/library/uc_terror_0109c.htm


"Without the assistance of the Divine Being---I cannot succeed. With that assistance, I cannot fail."

Abraham Lincoln
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You are, as usual, wrong or purposefully mis-stating/misinterpreting. I am being overly polite in the previous sentence.
 
monoman said:
What about the families and friends of the murderer. Is it just and reasonable for them?
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When anyone is punished in any way whatsoever, ranging from a fine for speeding to a prison sentence or even capital punishment, the family of the criminal suffers economically or socially. This could be compensated to them in some cases, to some extent.

It is natural for all human beings to feel sad when you or your loved ones suffer a just punishment. There is an inherently selfish bastard living within us, who would avoid any legal punishments from self and your family members, while being equally glad to see those punished who have committed crimes against you or your family. The feelings of the close relatives of criminals are biased by default, and cannot be taken very seriously from an ethical point of view.

---

Justice is done when a criminal is treated precisely in the same way as he treated others. Whenever the criminal is treated otherwise than he treated others, we cannot be logically or ethically sure if justice has been done or not. In some cases our legal system treats criminals much more severely than they have treated others, in some cases much more mildly. In some cases just differently, and we cannot really estimate if this "differently" is milder, equal to, or heavier than what the criminal did to others.

---

As for unsure cases, man should be "innocent until PROVEN otherwise". If we accept scientific proof as evidence that an aeroplane is safe and can be boarded by our family and 400 others, equally perfect scientific evidence should be accepted as evidence that a person has committed a murder and deserves a death penalty.

As for life sentences, they never are lifelong anyway, only 15 years or so. And even if they were lifelong, we cannot know if spending a lifetime in prison is milder, equal to or heavier than dying quickly as the victim did. Killing the criminal with the same speed and method that he killed his victim ensures justice for all.
 
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JJM 777 said:
Justice is done when a criminal is treated precisely in the same way as he treated others. Whenever the criminal is treated otherwise than he treated others, we cannot be logically or ethically sure if justice has been done or not. In some cases our legal system treats criminals much more severely than they have treated others, in some cases much more mildly. In some cases just differently, and we cannot really estimate if this "differently" is milder, equal to, or heavier than what the criminal did to others.
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I don't agree with this. Punishment should only be used as a deterrent, not as retribution.
The Prison service should serve as protection, rehabilitation and deterrent - nothing else.
Murderers are different from the majority of the population to varying degrees. As a society we've decided it best to secure them to alleviate suffering on others. We have no right to do so, but tough.
Of course a lot of people see the sentence as retribution rather than as deterrent but this is, in my opinion, the wrong view.
That murderer could have been you or a close relative/friend. Why aren't you like that? Thank ed you're not.
 
joobz said:
This is why i oppose the death penalty. Wrongful conviction is a real issue and we are not perfect in our ability to determine guilt.

with that said, i'd suggest that the christian concept of the afterlife actually encourages people to consider the death penalty reasonable.

The afterlife removes responsibility from those convicting the individual. Afterall, if they were wrong, god will forgive and the accused will go to heaven. This is the mentality that allowed the witch trials to progress the way they did.

No, christianity holds no moral objection to the death penalty and as such is morally defficient in this manner.*



*did any one take the bait?:p
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Hook, line and sinker.

Except that I agree with every word.
 
monoman said:
I don't agree with this. Punishment should only be used as a deterrent, not as retribution.
The Prison service should serve as protection, rehabilitation and deterrent - nothing else.
Murderers are different from the majority of the population to varying degrees. As a society we've decided it best to secure them to alleviate suffering on others. We have no right to do so, but tough.
Of course a lot of people see the sentence as retribution rather than as deterrent but this is, in my opinion, the wrong view.
That murderer could have been you or a close relative/friend. Why aren't you like that? Thank ed you're not.
Click to expand...

BRAVO, monoman.
 
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