Why do animals respond to homeopathy?

If people want to choose to take fake medicine then that's their problem, just don't give it to animals and children for FSM's sake!
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
Blue pills "work" differently to Pink ones.
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Well, Duh!
Blue homeopathic pills only work on boys, and the pink ones on girls.
Don't dare give a boy an homeopathic pink pill, as the infintesimally tiny amount of active ingriedient will instantly turn the male child into a girl.

I invite any homeopath to tell me why my scenario is not the logical conclusion of homeopathic theory (and I cringe at even giving homeopathy this much credit).
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
Blue pills "work" differently to Pink ones.
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If you want to get into the details of the placebo effect, then yes, different colored placebo pills have different effects, in humans. I seriously doubt that goes for animals too. Giving people 2 or 3 instead of just 1 pill also enhances the placebo effect. The research I've seen indicates that the most important factor in the placebo effect is the attitude of the person treating the patient. That's probably why woowoos who are really deluded get better results with crystal healing/ reiki/ homeopathy/ aura cleansing etc. then those who aren't.
 
I recall reading somewhere several years ago about a test that shows that animals might be able to respond to placebo. Trouble is, I can't find the reference so will relate from memory (so the following could be inaccurate):

The test was to measure the placebo's "evil twin", namely the "nocebo" effect. A group of rats was divided into 3 groups thus:

Group 1: Given a mild poison - enough to give illness but not die.
Group 2: Given a dummy pill.
Group 3: Given nothing.

Most of the rats in group 1 showed symptoms of the illness, and after a certain period the poison was switched for an identical dummy harmless pill. While some of the rats recovered, a number of them continued to show the symptoms.

If anyone knows more about this experiment (and assuming I didn't just dream it one night :)) perhaps thay can confirm or otherwise link a reference.
 
Diabolos said:
I recall reading somewhere several years ago about a test that shows that animals might be able to respond to placebo. Trouble is, I can't find the reference so will relate from memory (so the following could be inaccurate):

The test was to measure the placebo's "evil twin", namely the "nocebo" effect. A group of rats was divided into 3 groups thus:

Group 1: Given a mild poison - enough to give illness but not die.
Group 2: Given a dummy pill.
Group 3: Given nothing.

Most of the rats in group 1 showed symptoms of the illness, and after a certain period the poison was switched for an identical dummy harmless pill. While some of the rats recovered, a number of them continued to show the symptoms.

If anyone knows more about this experiment (and assuming I didn't just dream it one night :)) perhaps thay can confirm or otherwise link a reference.
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Sounds like the conditioning used to stop coyotes eating sheep.

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1126&context=gpwdcwp
 
arthwollipot said:
Of course! :)

Thanks for all your responses here. It's given me something to go on. The Clever Hans effect is particularly valid, in my view.
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I personally don't see anything I'd recognise as the "Clever Hans" effect in sick animals. What I see is a lot of observer bias and a lot of coincidental recovery. These things apply just as much to conventional medicine as woo. It's just that you try to notice when they're happening and discount them.

Since the observer bias effect is all on the owners, I don't see why different colours and shapes of pill shouldn't have some influence.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
I personally don't see anything I'd recognise as the "Clever Hans" effect in sick animals. What I see is a lot of observer bias and a lot of coincidental recovery. These things apply just as much to conventional medicine as woo. It's just that you try to notice when they're happening and discount them.

Since the observer bias effect is all on the owners, I don't see why different colours and shapes of pill shouldn't have some influence.

Rolfe.
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If the owners get to see the pills their animals are getting, I agree that it can have some influence on their judgement (and other things, such as professional looking packing etc). But I was talking about effects on the patient, not on the observer.
Allthough, come to think of it, there are plenty experiments with humans where they give food an unnatural color with a tasteless substance and it really changes what people taste. People seem to not like bright green steak for instance. It's likely that animals have the same problem with anything with 'unnatural' colors, so the color of any pills may have some effect on animals too.
 
Drummer said:
If the owners get to see the pills their animals are getting, I agree that it can have some influence on their judgement (and other things, such as professional looking packing etc). But I was talking about effects on the patient, not on the observer.
Allthough, come to think of it, there are plenty experiments with humans where they give food an unnatural color with a tasteless substance and it really changes what people taste. People seem to not like bright green steak for instance. It's likely that animals have the same problem with anything with 'unnatural' colors, so the color of any pills may have some effect on animals too.
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I don't really think there are any effects on the patient.

Dogs are essentially colour-blind, and cats only have limited colour vision, so pill colour is extremely unlikely to be noticed.

I also don't think the animals regard the pill administration per se as therapeutic. Personal attention, mummy kiss it better sort of behaviour may be perceived as "being helped", but shoving a pill down my throat? Why are you doing this to me you cruel monster?

One effect of the above may in fact be a degree of hypochondria. Rather than getting better quicker, the animal may associate the increased attention from the owner with the limp, and go on limping (or fake a limp from time to time) to elicit the "reward" of being fussed over.

Rolfe.
 
Are there such things as coloured homeopathic pills? If so how do we know their unmeasurable effects aren't the result of the dye?
 
Rolfe said:
I also don't think the animals regard the pill administration per se as therapeutic. Personal attention, mummy kiss it better sort of behaviour may be perceived as "being helped", but shoving a pill down my throat? Why are you doing this to me you cruel monster?
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Anyone who has ever de-wormed a cat by force rather than by guile can attest to this.

Anyway, there is no need for homeopathy to work on animals as long as it "works" on the one who has the wallet.
 
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Rolfe said:
I also don't think the animals regard the pill administration per se as therapeutic. Personal attention, mummy kiss it better sort of behaviour may be perceived as "being helped", but shoving a pill down my throat? Why are you doing this to me you cruel monster?
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And how do you get a homoeopathic pill into, for example, a cat? Remember, you're not supposed to touch the pill. They're certainly not going to sit there calmly while you tip the pill into their mouth from the lid of the container.

One effect of the above may in fact be a degree of hypochondria. Rather than getting better quicker, the animal may associate the increased attention from the owner with the limp, and go on limping (or fake a limp from time to time) to elicit the "reward" of being fussed over.
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Otherwise known as "look, I've hurt my paw" syndrome.
 
Mojo said:
And how do you get a homoeopathic pill into, for example, a cat? Remember, you're not supposed to touch the pill. They're certainly not going to sit there calmly while you tip the pill into their mouth from the lid of the container.
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Waitasecond. I missed this one in all previous discussions. You're not supposed to touch the pill??? Serious?
 
Yeah. It's quite a new one, but it will "earth" the subtle mysterious energies or something. Or you'll get the mojo and not the patient or something. If you look at the modern homoeopathic pill containers, you'll see that they're made to pop one pill into the lid (sort of like a saccharine dispenser), and you then tip it from the lid into your mouth.

Actually, this could be another question for BSM's "Larsen List" - when did the instruction not to touch the pill start to be given to patients, how did the homoeopaths who started this idea know that touching the pill was bad, and where does that leave everybody who ever indulged in homoeopathy before that date (as it's a racing certainty that most of them handled the pills)?

Rolfe.
 
So, to get this all straight, human touch will affect the solution (mystical energies and so one), organic compounds will affect the solution, inorganic compounds will affect the solution (like mercury, lead, or the Berlin Wall), but alcohol or sugar won't? the glass from the pipette won't?

I'm so confused
 
Rolfe said:
Yeah. It's quite a new one, but it will "earth" the subtle mysterious energies or something. Or you'll get the mojo and not the patient or something. If you look at the modern homoeopathic pill containers, you'll see that they're made to pop one pill into the lid (sort of like a saccharine dispenser), and you then tip it from the lid into your mouth.
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So... you can touch it with your mouth, but not with your hand?

I suppose that makes as much sense as anything else in homeopathy.
 
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