Free Tibet protest at Great Wall

[Wolfman]

Not sure how many have heard about this, a quick (far from comprehensive) check of the forums revealed no posts about it.

This week, a group of protesters from the US, UK, and Canada went to the Great Wall and unveiled a large banner calling for freedom for Tibet in both English and Chinese. They used cell phone and internet technology to get the video on YouTube almost as soon as it was made, and it has since gotten a fair bit of attention. Following is the actual video:

Now, I've got very mixed feelings about this. On the one had, one can certainly argue that these people were fairly courageous in taking such an action in a country like China (in fact, they were all arrested and detained by the Chinese authorities, up to present I've heard no announcement as to what their fate will be). And Tibet is a legitimate issue, despite the fact that I think the majority of self-styled protesters don't really understand the issues at all. We shouldn't be silent; but nor should we be ignorant of that about which we are protesting.

However, all that aside, I found this particular stunt rather boring and pointless. It was done on a part of the Great Wall that had almost no people, and the banner faced a direction that basically could be seen by nobody except for the person with the video camera. Sure, it captured peoples' attention on YouTube...but honestly, how much 'action' or 'awareness' is a stunt like this going to generate? If you've really got balls, and determination to make this an issue, you'd do it in a place that was more public, and that would draw more peoples' attention.

I'll give a B+ for the initial concept -- they were successful at least in generating a lot of publicity, even if that publicity is more about them than about Tibet. A D- for execution, they could have found much better locations, and more effective way of getting their message across. And an F for the actual content of the message; it would be pretty difficult to come up with a more generic message than what they had. They could, at the very least, have had someone giving a commentary while they were doing this, to at least give specifics of what they were protesting, and what changes they were calling for.

 

[Jimbo07]

And Tibet is a legitimate issue, despite the fact that I think the majority of self-styled protesters don't really understand the issues at all. We shouldn't be silent; but nor should we be ignorant of that about which we are protesting.

Interestingly, I've been interested in politics for years, but I've never quite understood this one. It seems that "Free Tibetters" pop up from time to time. Why not, "Democratize China?"

Can someone lay this out for a skeptic?

ETA: I've got a suspicion about this particular issue, but I don't want to go too far into it until some have been allowed to fully outline the problem to me...

 

[Wolfman]

In my opinion, a "free Tibet" (that is, a Tibet that is independent of China) is just not going to happen. What people should be pushing for is greater human rights and freedoms for the Tibetan people (and everyone else) as a part of China.

However, there remain those well-intentioned but incredibly naive people who have a need to be involved in some important, world-changing cause. And what could be better than helping the Dalai Lama himself to bring freedom to his people?

Never mind the fact that the Dalai Lama has himself abandoned entirely the idea of an 'independent' Tibet, and instead focuses on greater freedom for Tibet within China.

Also, often neglected in the regular tirades about abuses against Tibet (which I will not dispute), is the fact that education rates in Tibet have increased more than 1000% since the Chinese took over. Or how about the fact that the traditional Tibetan system was a strongly patriarchal system, which was quite repressive of women (denying them education opportunities, for example), and it is the Chinese who introduced (and enforced) equality for women in Tibet?

To summarize: I agree with your comment completely. Focusing on getting the Chinese gov't to offer more freedoms to its people as a whole will benefit the Tibetans (and everyone else in China) far more than will protests like this one.

 

[Jimbo07]

And what could be better than helping the Dalai Lama himself... ?

Please try to refrain from confirming my suspicions, before someone more enlightented has had the opportunity to eloquently lay out their case.

 

[Damien Evans]

I am unfamiliar with this issue, as my entire exposure to Tibet comes from the movie "Seven Years In Tibet". Wolfman, thanks for giving me some education on this issue

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

I thought the Chinese were asked to intervene in Tibet because of the brutal actions of the royal family and dalai lama on the populace at the time ...

Charlie (or so the Chinese say) Monoxide

 

[Jimbo07]

So I went here, for some info...

meh.

Don't get me wrong. I have no particular desire to live under an authoritarian regime... it's just... why are westerners so caught up in this issue? Why not regime change? Why not protest for Kurdish independence, say?

 

[Wolfman]

I thought the Chinese were asked to intervene in Tibet because of the brutal actions of the royal family and dalai lama on the populace at the time ...

Charlie (or so the Chinese say) Monoxide

Charlie,

Actually, one of the main reasons that Tibet was invaded was because the British had already made several attempts to invade Tibet and add it to India. The Communists saw England as a significant threat, and wanted Tibet as a buffer zone.

The idea that the Chinese were "asked" to come in is political sophistry at best. The Chinese gov't manufactured a crisis, and used it as a pretext for their actions. But then, we've seen the U.S. do much the same thing in regards to Iraq; it is hardly a tactic used only by those 'evil Communists'.

Again, I feel a need to clarify: China has most definitely committed terrible acts in Tibet, particularly in the past. Many of the most repressive policies of the past have disappeared, but their legacy remains. Other repressive policies continue to this day (such as their recent declaration that 'reincarnations of living buddhas' have to be authorized by the state gov't).

But not all the news is bad. The "Free Tibet" groups will frequently talk about how "Tibetan people have no human rights", while entirely ignoring the huge increases in education, and in women's rights, under the Chinese gov't (and ignoring how the Tibetan gov't, prior to the Chinese takeover, had political and religious practices which any reasonable person today would consider repressive and abusive). They prefer an idealized version in which Tibet was some sort of earthly paradise where everyone was enlightened and all lived in a peaceful, equal co-existence. And the Chinese destroyed all of that.

As with most such issues in China, its very hard to come to any definitive conclusion. On the one hand, you can list many, many abuses, both past and present, which are more than deserving of condemnation. On the other hand, not only can you make a list of improvements under the Communist gov't (especially in areas like education and women's rights, areas in which the Chinese communist gov't actually leads the world), but the situation here is regularly improving, also. Examples of abuses and atrocities from even five or ten years ago are no longer necessarily relevant -- they happened, yes...but they are no longer happening (while others are still happening).

I personally believe that only by looking at the whole picture -- the entirety of China, including Tibet -- both the good, and the bad, can anyone even have a hope of suggesting practical solutions.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

So I went here, for some info...

meh.

Don't get me wrong. I have no particular desire to live under an authoritarian regime... it's just... why are westerners so caught up in this issue? Why not regime change? Why not protest for Kurdish independence, say?

Great point, and something akin to rhetorical questions I've asked from time to time.

I think it's because the perception is based on a Brad Pitt movie, not the conditions the average Tibetan was living in during the time.

There are good arguments in favor of the improvements of the quality of live under Chinese rule. And that's scary.

I want basic human rights and more freedom for everyone, especially, but not limited to, China. Going back to the old ways of Tibet will not provide that.

 

[MWare]

However, all that aside, I found this particular stunt rather boring and pointless. It was done on a part of the Great Wall that had almost no people, and the banner faced a direction that basically could be seen by nobody except for the person with the video camera. Sure, it captured peoples' attention on YouTube...but honestly, how much 'action' or 'awareness' is a stunt like this going to generate?

I believe it was meant to coordinate with the warm up ceremonies (1 year to go) for the Olympic Games in China. There was a larger than normal foreign media presence in China this week for the festivities (you may have seen reports of the smog problems during the events) and there has been a lot of international criticism over what China has said about allowing free journalism for the games and what they will really do. Also, they are having the olympic torch carried through Tibet as a not-so-subtle reminder of China's dominance, which has ruffled feathers and generated some press. All in all, I think they were trying to get this protest as a tack-on to the ongoing Olympic preparations coverage.

 

[Wolfman]

I believe it was meant to coordinate with the warm up ceremonies (1 year to go) for the Olympic Games in China. There was a larger than normal foreign media presence in China this week for the festivities (you may have seen reports of the smog problems during the events) and there has been a lot of international criticism over what China has said about allowing free journalism for the games and what they will really do. Also, they are having the olympic torch carried through Tibet as a not-so-subtle reminder of China's dominance, which has ruffled feathers and generated some press. All in all, I think they were trying to get this protest as a tack-on to the ongoing Olympic preparations coverage.

Oh, absolutely! I'm in Beijing, was smack in the middle of all the action (didn't need to just read the reports). And yes, this was staged because of the tie in with these events.

But again, this event did pretty much nothing to actually increase awareness of Tibetan issues; what it mainly accomplished was making these six people minor celebrities.

Let me point out something here: even in 'democratic' nations like the U.S. and Australia, when they have hosted the Olympics, they have strictly controlled where and how people may stage protests. Those who violate those rules are arrested, and if they are foreigners, they are deported.

And if protesters had scaled the Eiffel Tower, or the Statue of Liberty, and then dropped a huge banner saying pretty much anything, they'd be arrested for doing so.

The Chinese gov't also plans to have 'designated protest zones', following the system established by previous Olympics organizers. Within those designated zones, people actually will be able to wave banners such as "Free Tibet" (although protests seen as inciting violence or overthrow of the Chinese gov't will not be allowed anywhere).

As someone actually on the ground here, for all that there are still numerous problems in China, the Olympics is one of the best things that could have happened for China's development. Moderate reformers within the Communist party have gained significant power, and the gov't has been forced to fasttrack certain changes/improvements (such as policies regarding public protests and demonstrations) that they would have otherwise been much slower on.

Will this make China turn democratic, and stop all the gov't's abuses? Of course not. But it keeps China on a path of continued development and change that is at least moving in the right direction.

I do think that the Olympics serve as a great platform for educating people about the problems in China, and for encouraging continued development and change! But that's not going to be accomplished by people like these protesters. Its going to be accomplished by people with an understanding of the whole picture, and who base their claims and actions on achievable goals (not something like "freeing Tibet" which, however much we may wish it would happen, simply is not going to happen).

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

...
The idea that the Chinese were "asked" to come in is political sophistry at best. The Chinese gov't manufactured a crisis, and used it as a pretext for their actions. But then, we've seen the U.S. do much the same thing in regards to Iraq; it is hardly a tactic used only by those 'evil Communists'.
...

Good response Wolfie. I'm well aware of the circumstances of the Tibetan "liberation" by China.

Charlie (imperialism is only bad when committed by someone else) Monoxide

 

[MWare]

I do think that the Olympics serve as a great platform for educating people about the problems in China, and for encouraging continued development and change! ).

I hope you're right.

Its going to be accomplished by people with an understanding of the whole picture, and who base their claims and actions on achievable goals (not something like "freeing Tibet" which, however much we may wish it would happen, simply is not going to happen).

I thought to effectively protest in China you had to jump in front of a tank.
Obviously, I know very little about China or protesting

 

[Wolfman]

I thought to effectively protest in China you had to jump in front of a tank.
Obviously, I know very little about China or protesting

Let me try to address this question as fairly as possible.

Obviously, this is a reference to the Tiananmen Square massacre of 1989; truly a black spot on the Communist Party's history in China (and far from the only one). However, again, I'd like to point out a number of facts that are not commonly known or discussed in this matter.

The protests at Tiananmen Square went on for more than a month before the authorities finally cracked down; for most of that time, there were no tanks, and limited military presence. Even some Chinese government officials openly supported the protests (after the crackdown, most of them lost their positions, or were severely demoted). In fact, the leaders of the protests were even offered the opportunity to meet with senior gov't officials to discuss their complaints and concerns. The first time this offer was extended, they met with the Chinese leaders, but treated them in a manner that was insulting and made those leaders lose face; the second time the offer was extended, they refused outright to meet with the Chinese gov't.

I'm not saying that, because of these actions, the leaders of the protests in Tiananmen Square deserved what happened to them; far from it, it was a reprehensible and inexcusable act, and I have many friends here who lost family members in Tiananmen Square. But the student leaders were offered an opportunity for discussion and dialogue with the gov't, and wasted that opportunity.

Also, in the western media, the protests in Tiananmen Square are always referred to as "democracy protests"...as if they were protesting to bring democracy to China. That is most adamantly not the case; the leaders of the protests were calling for change and reform within the existing Communist Party, in fact the majority of the student leaders were Communist Party members themselves! It was the western media that changed the message to make it seem that these students had been calling for a democratic government, and that they were killed for this.

Furthermore, protests are today a daily fact of life in China. Not a day goes by that there are not protests and demonstrations all across China. Approximately 5-10% of those actually result in police action that arrests or punishes those involved in the protests; the majority are held without incident, and without punishment.

There are particular issues which will guarantee gov't action. Protests in favor of Falun Gong, Taiwanese independence, or Tibetan independence, would be examples of 'unacceptable' behavior. So would protests calling for the overthrow of the current gov't.

But protests against gov't corruption happen every day, without punishment...so long as the protesters are protesting for the existing gov't to take stronger action, rather than protesting for the current gov't to be removed or overthrown. Protests against unsafe working conditions, unfair hiring practices, inequal gov't policies, etc., are so commonplace that they barely even merit mention in the news.

In the western media, of course, the only protests that get reported are those in which the gov't actually takes aggressive action. And again, I am not supporting or justifying such actions; I believe that the Chinese gov't should allow greater freedom to protest. But the existing freedoms are nevertheless far more common and widespread than the western media would lead you to believe.