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Why do people hate Jews?

Because that is what countries inherently do, they value their citizens lives above the lives of citizens in other countries. If you could provide me with some proof that other countries do not do this, then I would believe that Israel is out of line. Personally I am glad that countries do this, it makes me feel protected by my government, which I do believe it is their job.

That's one of the main causes of collateral damage and genocide. Holding one group of people at a higher regard than another group of people. That's why the...Holocaust happened!


While this site does give insight in how the IDF did not do everything they could to save Lebanese life it does not show that the IDF purposely tried to kill innocent Lebanese citizens.

They didn't purposely try to kill innocent Lebanese citizens, they just killed them due to strategic incompetence.
 
That's one of the main causes of collateral damage and genocide. Holding one group of people at a higher regard than another group of people. That's why the...Holocaust happened!

They didn't purposely try to kill innocent Lebanese citizens, they just killed them due to strategic incompetence.

No the holocaust happened because one group of people decided to exterminate another group of people, that is very different than valuing the life of some people over others.

Secondly, as I stated before, war is hell, people get killed in war. If you are in a war zone there is a good chance you will be killed no matter who is doing the attacking. Exactly how many people killed everyday in Iraq and Afghanistan, are these all combatants? It is expected that innocent people will be killed in Iraq and Afghanistan because they are war zones. Now the IDF does need to do better, but when you wage war people get killed, no matter how careful you are! Furthermore could you please show me a war or military action in which innocent people did not get killed.
 
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Most of the IDF casualties listed seem to be from the rockets.

Most IDF casualties don't list the exact cause. Of the cases which are attributed to rockets, only one incident on the page you linked to indicated Katyusha rockets. The anti-ship missile was also a rocket. So are the anti-tank missiles used against infantry. But you didn't say all forms of rockets (nor would that argument be significant): you specifically said Katyushas.

Why should the IDF hold Israeli lives at higher regard than Lebanese lives?

Because that's their job. That's why they're the Israeli Defense Force. They are drafted from the Israeli population, they are paid by Israeli taxes, and they are answerable to the Israeli government, which is elected by Israeli citizens. The idea that any national military won't be interested first and foremost with protecting its own citizens is quite frankly insane.

During the conflict the top estimated number of active combatants against the IDF were about 1,000.

Estimated by whom? Because that doesn't match what I've read. I've only seen that number as the number of "hard core" Hesbollah fighters, not the total.

You've seen "pictures" of such vehicles. Not the vehicles themselves or the actual strike.

And you've only seen pictures of the ambulance that supposedly got hit. And we've both only seen pictures of men on the moon.

There are hundreds of types of bombs used in airstrikes

In the world? Yes. That a given military has which are capable of performing precision strikes? No. That number is considerably smaller. And a good number of those would have left little beyond twisted steel and four scattered wheels to indicate the target was even a vehicle to begin with. So no, the number of candidate precision munitions from Israel really isn't very large.

Unless the strike goes right through the vehicle without detonating.

If it detonated under the vehicle, why aren't there signs of massive damage to the bottom of the vehicle? And if it didn't detonate, where are the remains? And why did they say it detonated, causing an explosion with fire, if it just punched through the vehicle and hit the road without exploding?

It significantly damaged the interior.

No, it didn't. That's all cosmetic damage. There is NO buckling of the floor or the walls of the vehicle. Compare that to pictures of known air strikes.

The missile could have detonated under the ground and the shrapnel could have came from the ambulance itself.

If it detonated underneath the vehicle, the floor should be buckled upwards. But it isn't. There's NO signs of damage coming from underneath the vehicle.

It's not some blog by some random anonymous person. I don't have the time to learn all there is about ballistics or the event that occurred so I'll stick with believing the reputable organizations opposed to some conspiracy theorist.

And you don't have time to learn about typeface analysis from anonymous bloggers, so you'll trust Dan Rather too. And Reuters, while we're at it. Oh, but then they spoiled it by having the integrity to admit they were duped by cheap photoshopping from a stringer who piggybacked on their reputation to push Hezbollah propaganda.

And why is HRW credible in the first place? Do they have a track record of forensic or ballistics analysis? No, they don't. Is there really anything to this credibility which you assign them beyond high visibility and agreement with their politics? Is there really any reason to think that they cannot be duped either?
 
Many civilians when attacked have no idea what they are actually attacked with, they will call it what they think it might have been. A 'missile' could easily have been any number of types of weapon. My guess is it wasn't a missile, but some other kind of weapon.

And if they're that confused about what hit them, how can we trust their attribution of who hit them? Even assuming that they're trying to be honest but are just confused, the only conclusion is that we cannot.
 
And if they're that confused about what hit them, how can we trust their attribution of who hit them? Even assuming that they're trying to be honest but are just confused, the only conclusion is that we cannot.

There is documentation of several vehicles being hit by the IAF, including ones that were fleeing the South as advised by the IDF.
 
No the holocaust happened because one group of people decided to exterminate another group of people, that is very different than valuing the life of some people over others.

If one group is inferior, what's wrong with exterminating them? Especially when you perceive that they are somehow threatening you?

Secondly, as I stated before, war is hell, people get killed in war. If you are in a war zone there is a good chance you will be killed no matter who is doing the attacking. Exactly how many people killed everyday in Iraq and Afghanistan, are these all combatants? It is expected that innocent people will be killed in Iraq and Afghanistan because they are war zones. Now the IDF does need to do better, but when you wage war people get killed, no matter how careful you are! Furthermore could you please show me a war or military action in which innocent people did not get killed.

The whole "war is hell, people get killed" isn't an excuse for the strategic errors that cost civilian lives. The IDF has admitted to strategic mistakes, I don't know why you're defending their blunders when even they aren't.

Most IDF casualties don't list the exact cause. Of the cases which are attributed to rockets, only one incident on the page you linked to indicated Katyusha rockets. The anti-ship missile was also a rocket. So are the anti-tank missiles used against infantry. But you didn't say all forms of rockets (nor would that argument be significant): you specifically said Katyushas.

You must be looking at a different page than I am. I see numerous references to Katyusha rockets.

Because that's their job.

No it's not.

That's why they're the Israeli Defense Force. They are drafted from the Israeli population, they are paid by Israeli taxes, and they are answerable to the Israeli government, which is elected by Israeli citizens. The idea that any national military won't be interested first and foremost with protecting its own citizens is quite frankly insane.

There's a difference between being interested in saving ones own citizens primarily and haphazardly attacking a country killing civilians.

Estimated by whom? Because that doesn't match what I've read. I've only seen that number as the number of "hard core" Hesbollah fighters, not the total.

The International Institute for Strategic Studies. The number of active fighters(those actually fighting) was only 600 to 1,000. 3,000 to 5,000 available and 10,000 reservists. Israel had a total troop strength of 168,000 and 408,000 reservists. How anyone would even differentiate between "hard core" and "non hardcore" fighters is beyond me, as is what the definition of "hardcore" would even be and who would meet that criteria. Israel had 30,000 active troops in south Lebanon while at the same time Hezbollah had only 600 to 1,000 active fighters.

And you've only seen pictures of the ambulance that supposedly got hit. And we've both only seen pictures of men on the moon.

And?

If it detonated under the vehicle, why aren't there signs of massive damage to the bottom of the vehicle? And if it didn't detonate, where are the remains? And why did they say it detonated, causing an explosion with fire, if it just punched through the vehicle and hit the road without exploding?

Perhaps it's detonation was underground and not noticeable, Perhaps it never detonated and its remains were lost underground. Perhaps the eyewitness accounts thought it detonated when it didn't.


No, it didn't. That's all cosmetic damage. There is NO buckling of the floor or the walls of the vehicle. Compare that to pictures of known air strikes.

They were lucky.

If it detonated underneath the vehicle, the floor should be buckled upwards. But it isn't. There's NO signs of damage coming from underneath the vehicle.

Unless the detonation was shielded by dozens of feet of ground.


And why is HRW credible in the first place? Do they have a track record of forensic or ballistics analysis? No, they don't. Is there really anything to this credibility which you assign them beyond high visibility and agreement with their politics? Is there really any reason to think that they cannot be duped either?

Does that anonymous blogger have a track record of forensic or ballistic analysis? HRW and other large organizations could easily use forensic experts to tell them what happened based on the pictures, does some guy in his basement running a blog have those resources? I doubt it.
 
If one group is inferior, what's wrong with exterminating them? Especially when you perceive that they are somehow threatening you?

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Dumbledore said:
No the holocaust happened because one group of people decided to exterminate another group of people, that is very different than valuing the life of some people over others.
If one group is inferior, what's wrong with exterminating them? Especially when you perceive that they are somehow threatening you?


Uh huh, so Dustin is back, and justifying actual genocide.......


The whole "war is hell, people get killed" isn't an excuse for the strategic errors that cost civilian lives.


But then Dustin is whining about stragetic errors that cost civilian lives.

Goodness. Let me get this straight.

Dustin thinks the Holocaust and its actual planned genocide was hunkydory.

But Dustin thinks that stragetic errors that may cost civilian lives is somehow wrong.

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, I see the Silly Season is upon us, the Moon is waxing in influence on the susceptible, and black is white while white is black. Okeydokey.
 
Medical experiments on kids was gross. I wouldn't want to do that.

So, that's something the Nazis did in the Hollocaust that I don't like. However, when it comes to lamp shades, I'll take a SOFA!!! A nice leather sofa.

That's all I'm saying.
 
If one group is inferior, what's wrong with exterminating them? Especially when you perceive that they are somehow threatening you?

Dustin,

You used to have an avatar of David Irving, right? What's your opinion of Irving's work? What's your opinion on the Holocaust? What's your opinion of the Wannsee Conference?

(ETA: I found this post to confirm my memory.)
 
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Medical experiments on kids was gross. I wouldn't want to do that.

So, that's something the Nazis did in the Hollocaust that I don't like. However, when it comes to lamp shades, I'll take a SOFA!!! A nice leather sofa.

That's all I'm saying.

If one group is inferior, what's wrong with exterminating them? Especially when you perceive that they are somehow threatening you?

I am astonished at the turn this has taken. Astonished and horrified. I suppose the two of you are also fans of Pol Pot and Stalin as well?

No, I don't want to know.

This is so sad and upsetting.
 
If one group is inferior, what's wrong with exterminating them? Especially when you perceive that they are somehow threatening you?
The whole "war is hell, people get killed" isn't an excuse for the strategic errors that cost civilian lives. The IDF has admitted to strategic mistakes, I don't know why you're defending their blunders when even they aren't.

Well that is certainly a Nazi way to think about things, but no one said the other group is inferior, I simply stated that a country like America values its citizens lives over the lives of citizens in other countries, can you show me that this is not true.

Secondly exterminating a group of people even if you believe they are inferior to you and are threating you is not necceary. You have to choose to exterminate a group of people, instead of dealing with them is some other manner.

Finally I am defending Israels action against Hezbollah, since you and others are unclear on what position Israel was put in when Hezbollah started their unprovoked attack on them. Yes the IDF made mistakes, and they have admitted them, thereby showing that they are not the ruthless killers you have suggested they are. But if you think that war comes without the death of innocent civilians you are fooling yourself.
 
Medical experiments on kids was gross. I wouldn't want to do that.

So, that's something the Nazis did in the Hollocaust that I don't like. However, when it comes to lamp shades, I'll take a SOFA!!! A nice leather sofa.

That's all I'm saying.

I am glad you can joke, I think that is important. For me though, I have seen the pictures of the Holocaust, this is something that is very real, and mankind is very capable of doing it again, if not to Jews then to some other group. In short the Holocaust is not a Jewish issue it is an issue for everyone.
 
I am astonished at the turn this has taken. Astonished and horrified. I suppose the two of you are also fans of Pol Pot and Stalin as well?

No, I don't want to know.

This is so sad and upsetting.

Try posting in the Holocaust section of www.skepticforum.com.

Every time I go there, afterwards I feel like I need a bath.
 
You must be looking at a different page than I am. I see numerous references to Katyusha rockets.

Indeed there are. But in every case except one, it's civilians, not IDF, which the Katyusha killed. And you said IDF.

No it's not.

Yes it is.

The International Institute for Strategic Studies. The number of active fighters(those actually fighting) was only 600 to 1,000. 3,000 to 5,000 available and 10,000 reservists. Israel had a total troop strength of 168,000 and 408,000 reservists. How anyone would even differentiate between "hard core" and "non hardcore" fighters is beyond me, as is what the definition of "hardcore" would even be and who would meet that criteria. Israel had 30,000 active troops in south Lebanon while at the same time Hezbollah had only 600 to 1,000 active fighters.

Israel had to assume that if they waged a primarily ground war on Lebanese territory, they would have to face the entire reserve force of Hezbollah. That's what reserves are for. So they has to assume that they could not achieve dramatic numerical superiority. Add in the fact that they were fighting an enemy which had spent literally years preparing for just such a war, and fighting this enemy on their home turf, and the idea that they could have fought it the same way we're fighting in Iraq becomes quite obviously ridiculous.


Are you honestly that clueless? It's possible to figure things out by looking at photos.

Perhaps it's detonation was underground and not noticeable, Perhaps it never detonated and its remains were lost underground.

No. They showed the spot where the missile (or part of it) supposedly impacted the ground after penetrating the ambulance. There's no underground there: it's solid asphalt with a divot in it.

Perhaps the eyewitness accounts thought it detonated when it didn't.

In which case, where are the remains?

They were lucky.

I don't believe in unsubstantiated stories which require unbelievable luck and unheard-of weapons.

Unless the detonation was shielded by dozens of feet of ground.

The only weapons that can penetrate dozens of feet of ground are designed for the purpose, and would not have been used to strike a moving, unarmored vehicle. Not to mention, the ground spot in question was shown with a small divot in asphalt: under the divot is more asphalt, there's no hole under the divot in which anything could have gone. You're coming up with increasingly bizarre excuses to avoid concluding the obvious: it was faked. And why, exactly, is that something that's difficult for you to accept anyways? Are you unwilling to consider the idea that Hezbollah and their sympathizers might just lie?

Does that anonymous blogger have a track record of forensic or ballistic analysis?

No, but I'm not relying on this blogger's identity to support my position. You are relying on HRW's identity to support yours.

HRW and other large organizations could easily use forensic experts to tell them what happened based on the pictures,

Maybe they could have, but they didn't. Just like CBS could have consulted with type face analysts to determine if the Bush guard memo could have come from a 1970's typewriter rather than a Microsoft word document, but they didn't.
 
Uh huh, so Dustin is back, and justifying actual genocide.......

I'm not justifying Genocide. I'm saying that Genocide is the result when one group of people sees another as being inherently inferior or values them less. I never defended genocide.

But then Dustin is whining about stragetic errors that cost civilian lives.

Goodness. Let me get this straight.

Dustin thinks the Holocaust and its actual planned genocide was hunkydory.

But Dustin thinks that stragetic errors that may cost civilian lives is somehow wrong.

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, I see the Silly Season is upon us, the Moon is waxing in influence on the susceptible, and black is white while white is black. Okeydokey.

I said the Holocaust and planned genocide is "Hunkydory"? I think you might need glasses.

Are you saying the Holocaust was morally justified?

No.

Dustin,

You used to have an avatar of David Irving, right? What's your opinion of Irving's work? What's your opinion on the Holocaust? What's your opinion of the Wannsee Conference?

(ETA: I found this post to confirm my memory.)

I've explained why I had a Irving avatar numerous times.
My opinion of Irvings work on the holocaust is that it's bunk.
My opinion of the holocaust is the same as any reputable historians.

The link you posted is my questioning moral relativism.

Well that is certainly a Nazi way to think about things, but no one said the other group is inferior, I simply stated that a country like America values its citizens lives over the lives of citizens in other countries, can you show me that this is not true.

Just because it's happens doesn't mean it's right. Why would one country value it's citizens over another? What reason would they have to do such a thing? What's the rational?

Secondly exterminating a group of people even if you believe they are inferior to you and are threating you is not necceary. You have to choose to exterminate a group of people, instead of dealing with them is some other manner.

But if one group thinks another is inferior and is threatening them somehow then it lets you understand their mindset. The Nazis saw the Jews as inherently inferior to them and saw Germans as somehow "superior" to all other nations. This is the mentality that led to the Holocaust.

Finally I am defending Israels action against Hezbollah, since you and others are unclear on what position Israel was put in when Hezbollah started their unprovoked attack on them. Yes the IDF made mistakes, and they have admitted them, thereby showing that they are not the ruthless killers you have suggested they are. But if you think that war comes without the death of innocent civilians you are fooling yourself.

Some deaths are just unjustified in war. The fact that collateral damage occurs in war doesn't excuse all civilian deaths.

Well this certainly explains a lot! Thanks!;)


No it doesn't.

Indeed there are. But in every case except one, it's civilians, not IDF, which the Katyusha killed. And you said IDF.

I see plenty of soldiers who died from them as well.

Yes it is.

Why?


Israel had to assume that if they waged a primarily ground war on Lebanese territory, they would have to face the entire reserve force of Hezbollah. That's what reserves are for. So they has to assume that they could not achieve dramatic numerical superiority. Add in the fact that they were fighting an enemy which had spent literally years preparing for just such a war, and fighting this enemy on their home turf, and the idea that they could have fought it the same way we're fighting in Iraq becomes quite obviously ridiculous.

You're backtracking. Israel had a reserve 16 times that of Hezbollah's highest estimated reserve. Give me a break.


Are you honestly that clueless? It's possible to figure things out by looking at photos.

And it's possible to be deceived just by looking at photos, especially if you're untrained.


No. They showed the spot where the missile (or part of it) supposedly impacted the ground after penetrating the ambulance. There's no underground there: it's solid asphalt with a divot in it.

It went right through the cement.



In which case, where are the remains?

Underground, lost.


I don't believe in unsubstantiated stories which require unbelievable luck and unheard-of weapons.

Neither do I.

The only weapons that can penetrate dozens of feet of ground are designed for the purpose, and would not have been used to strike a moving, unarmored vehicle. Not to mention, the ground spot in question was shown with a small divot in asphalt: under the divot is more asphalt, there's no hole under the divot in which anything could have gone. You're coming up with increasingly bizarre excuses to avoid concluding the obvious: it was faked. And why, exactly, is that something that's difficult for you to accept anyways? Are you unwilling to consider the idea that Hezbollah and their sympathizers might just lie?

This is the picture I'm looking at.
http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/hrw/hrw_hole.jpg
Which are you looking at?



No, but I'm not relying on this blogger's identity to support my position. You are relying on HRW's identity to support yours.

You're relying on his amateur examination of the incident compared to that of reputable organizations.
 
I am glad you can joke, I think that is important. For me though, I have seen the pictures of the Holocaust, this is something that is very real, and mankind is very capable of doing it again, if not to Jews then to some other group. In short the Holocaust is not a Jewish issue it is an issue for everyone.

I bet you have seen lots of holocaust movies thanks to the Jews who run Hollywood.
 

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