Time to kick Iran

Haliburton could have done very well without a war. Bush could have written any contract he wanted with Saddam and Saddam would have happily done so. Bush just needed to announce to the world that he had persuaded Saddam to comply and everyone would have been rich and happy.
That's the part that called for some clever horse trading. I think Saddam was approached with that plan in mind, and he blew the deal by asking, and not negotiating around, too great a percentage on each well pumping.

What a greedy bastidge, eh? He blew a chance for whirled pease in the Persian Gulf. Of course, given his mergers and acquisitions methods regarding Kuwait, one probably could have bet the over on him driving a greedy bargain.

DR
 
Not a clue dude. When I said the video was demonstrably shallow and racists it sure has hell wasn't about the guy taking the video. That doesn't make any sense.

OK.
If you criticize Mr. A for being shallow and racists I 100% agree with you

This is just silly and dumb. No.

So, it is OK NOT to rule out the use of nukes?

Please make up your mind.

What can I reply to this?
 
It's called life. It happens.

You are so light-minded when it comes to tens of thousands of deaths of NON- American people, uh?
" It's called life. It happens. "
You cynic..

I a black and white world, sure.

OK
You are speaking like Osama bin Laden, you just do not realize it.

Yes, but you only care now.

This is a lie.
I do not call you " liar ", but this is a gross lie.

Your postion is clear. People dying under Saddam will not raise your ire.

Another lie.

America trying to help people and failing will earn your contempt and animosity. It's not a difficult thing to understand.

Communists wanted to create the perfect world, and caused 20 million people to die.
Are you a Communist?
 
But at no point have I ever seen you refer to civilian deaths in the pre-invasion time frame, or ever suggest that there would continue to be deaths even without an invasion.

But, would there have been more or less deaths?
Another point, of these deaths, who would have been responsible?

First of all, the term 'co-responsible' in the above sentence is important. In my opinion, the U.S. would prefer a peaceful, democratic Iraq. It is the insurgents who are causing the bulk of the problems at this point in time.

That is a good point.
But, I beg you to notice that, many times, having good intentions is not a good excuse for creating a mess, especially when the mess means tens of thousands of deaths.

Well, lets see...

There have been approximately 70,000 deaths in Iraq in the 4 years/4 months since the invasion (according to the Iraq body count web site). That works out to a little over 16,000 per year.

In the 24 years that Saddam was in power, the number of estimated deaths has ranged anywhere from 500,000 to 1 million (depending on how you attribute deaths due to the war with Iran, premature deaths due to the misuse of oil-for-food money, plus the various genocides.) That works out to between 20,000 and 40,000 deaths per year.

Personally, I'd rather see no deaths, but given a choice I'd rather see 16,000 deaths than 20,000 or 40,000. Oh, and I should add... under Saddam situations were unlikely to improve (as his sons would likely take over his leadership and were just as brutal as he was). At least with the current situation, there is a chance for the situation to improve. (And had Bush not screwed up his handling of Iraq post-invasion, the situation might even be better.)

Your numbers are quite dubious.
What you are referring to are the number of civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
The number of the deaths, caused directly or indirectly, by the invasion are probably in the range of the hundreds of thousands.

Our maximum therefore refers to reported deaths - which can only be a sample of true deaths unless one assumes that every civilian death has been reported. It is likely that many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by the media. That is the sad nature of war
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/#position

Moreover, you forget that Saddam' s actions could have been diverted without taking him out of power, just with local attacks to his forces, more or less like George father did.

And just how exactly do you propose they could have done that?

Sanctions? They weren't working too well (given Iraq's use of money to fund the military rather than buy food/medicine, not to mention illegal oil sales) They were causing hardship for the Iraqi people and likely adding to the premature deaths.

No.
I was talking about:
1) attacking Iraqi' s forces, at local level;
2) if Saddam attacks the Kurds, bomb his forces by air;
3) target potential military facilities of Saddam;
4) ..

So, let me make this 100% clear...

You are basically saying that you had no moral objection to the genocide in Serbia, because the U.N. did not approve any action to correct the situation. Is that what you're saying? (And if the U.N. does not act on the situation, then it is not worthy of action.)

No.
I say that the US and Europe should have worked within an international consensus before takling any military measure
If the US want to go alone, and they fail, they will have to take the blame and they will become guilty of what happens because of their actions.
 
So, it is OK NOT to rule out the use of nukes?
For those that don't have them? It's ok.
For those that want to get rid of them? It's ok.
For those that have them and plan to keep them? Uh... Let me put it this way, at one point in my life I ruled out eating cottage cheese. When I did that I got rid of my cottage cheese and stopped buying the stuff. Is that a difficult concept to understand? What's the purpose of having something you refuse to ever use?
 
You are so light-minded when it comes to tens of thousands of deaths of NON- American people, uh?
No, I'm not. I'm honest and realistic. I care very much for the people suffering and dying all over the world. I don't single out a country to vent my frustration on, as many here do.

You are speaking like Osama bin Laden, you just do not realize it.
Osama, like you, sees the world in a black and white way. Americans are bad. I don't see ANY country that way. I don't see ANY group of people that way.

I do not call you " liar ", but this is a gross lie.
Really? What forums have you discussed the suffering of other people? When did you speak out against Saddam?

Another lie.
Sure Mateo, you regularly bemoan the suffering of people in Darfur, right? You are currently speaking out against North Korea, right? You give a damn about those who are being killed all around the world but you spend most if not all of your time here criticizing America. Forgive me if I'm skeptical as to your heartfelt concern for anyone suffering in an area not affected by America. I can only judge you on your actions.

Communists wanted to create the perfect world, and caused 20 million people to die.
Are you a Communist?
Well this would be a fallacy but let's skip that and deal just with the first proposition. I think the number is much higher but the point is that Stalin and Pol Pot intentionally killed or caused the death of citizens. America does not want people to die. Our intentions were not to kill citizens.

AMERICANS BEAR THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THOSE WHO HAVE DIED AS A RESULT OF THIS WAR! I started a thread to publicly apologize for my support of this war.

That being said, it is only intellectually honest to put the event in proper context. Comparing Iraq to Stalin's purges and Pol Pot's killing fields is intellectually dishonest. You should be careful who you call a liar.
 
America does not want people to die. Our intentions were not to kill citizens.


According to the CIA history, your sentence doesn't make much sense. For Americas interests, the CIA never cared much about lives or Dictators as long there is an advantage in it:

The Secrets of the CIA (SkyTwo, UK)
Google Video This video is not hosted by the ISF, the ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
 
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According to the CIA history, your sentence doesn't make much sense.
I hate to break the news to you Oliver but the CIA is not America. Much has been done without our knowledge. Americans really don't want to kill innocent people and I'm disapointed that you so easily accept that.

In any event, I'm not sure just how many innocent people the CIA intentionally targeted.
 
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I hate to break the news to you Oliver but the CIA is not America. Much has been done without our knowledge. Americans really don't want to kill innocent people and I'm disapointed that you so easily accept that.

In any event, I'm not sure just how many innocent people the CIA intentionally targeted.


Since the President and the Congressional Members of the National Security Council are your elected representatives - and they know about it: Yes, they are America. Now since these things are known today, why didn't someone reformed this issue if they're not acting in name of the citizens? (And I know it isn't in their name)
 
Osama, like you, sees the world in a black and white way. Americans are bad. I don't see ANY country that way. I don't see ANY group of people that way.

Again.
Another lie.
I never said that Americans are bad.

Really? What forums have you discussed the suffering of other people? When did you speak out against Saddam?

You are, like some opther people here, involved in the phishicatric problem of the two alternatives.
For the 100th time, why on Earth if I did not speak against Saddam, should you consider that I am in favour on him.
Why????????????????????????????????

Sure Mateo, you regularly bemoan the suffering of people in Darfur, right? You are currently speaking out against North Korea, right? You give a damn about those who are being killed all around the world but you spend most if not all of your time here criticizing America.

1) my name is not " Mateo "
2) you are completely .....
You are saying a gross, gross lie about " you give a damn about those who are being killed all around the world "
I do not know why I am keeping on replying to you..

Forgive me if I'm skeptical as to your heartfelt concern for anyone suffering in an area not affected by America. I can only judge you on your actions.

My actions??
Which actions??

Well this would be a fallacy but let's skip that and deal just with the first proposition. I think the number is much higher but the point is that Stalin and Pol Pot intentionally killed or caused the death of citizens. America does not want people to die. Our intentions were not to kill citizens.

I am not sure if the number is higher or lower.
I was stressing the point, that many times, the worst tragedies are caused by the best intentions.
But, you did not get it.
As always..

AMERICANS BEAR THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THOSE WHO HAVE DIED AS A RESULT OF THIS WAR!

Then, we partially agree.
It is not complete responsibility, it is partial responsibility, as American soldiers do not kill Iraqi civilians ( unless some exceptional cases ), and they have provided regular elections for the Iraqi people.

That being said, it is only intellectually honest to put the event in proper context. Comparing Iraq to Stalin's purges and Pol Pot's killing fields is intellectually dishonest. You should be careful who you call a liar.

I completely agree that " comparing Iraq to Stalin's purges and Pol Pot's killing fields is intellectually dishonest ", as I have never compared Iraq to Stalin's purges and Pol Pot's killing fields
And, I do not think I called you a liar.
 
Since the President and the Congressional Members of the National Security Council are your elected representatives - and they know about it: Yes, they are America. Now since these things are known today, why didn't someone reformed this issue if they're not acting in name of the citizens? (And I know it isn't in their name)
In the interests of Putting the E into JREF, the only two elected representatives on the NSC are the Pres and the Vice Pres. The rest are appointed cabinet officers or special assistants to the President, or senior State and Military staff, subject to the usual Congressional advice and consent processes in some cases.

The NSC is a function of the Executive Branch. There are no seats on this council for the Congress. The Congress has its own committees for Security and Defense matters.
The National Security Council is chaired by the President.

Its regular attendees (both statutory and non-statutory) are the Vice President, the Secretary of State, the Secretary of the Treasury, the Secretary of Defense, and the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs.

The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is the statutory military advisor to the Council, and the Director of National Intelligence is the intelligence advisor.

The Chief of Staff to the President, Counsel to the President, and the Assistant to the President for Economic Policy are invited to attend any NSC meeting.

The Attorney General and the Director of the Office of Management and Budget are invited to attend meetings pertaining to their responsibilities.

The heads of other executive departments and agencies, as well as other senior officials, are invited to attend meetings of the NSC when appropriate.

National Security Council's Function

The National Security Council is the President's principal forum for considering national security and foreign policy matters with his senior national security advisors and cabinet officials.

Since its inception under President Truman, the function of the Council has been to advise and assist the President on national security and foreign policies. The Council also serves as the President's principal arm for coordinating these policies among various government agencies.
FYI

http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/

DR
 
That is a good point.
But, I beg you to notice that, many times, having good intentions is not a good excuse for creating a mess, especially when the mess means tens of thousands of deaths.
So, in other words, what you're saying is that any attrocity can be ignored just in case interverntion might make it worse.

By your logic, if you saw a man raping a woman, you'd ignore it, because getting involved in stopping the assault, you COULD injure the assailant.

Your numbers are quite dubious.
What you are referring to are the number of civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
The number of the deaths, caused directly or indirectly, by the invasion are probably in the range of the hundreds of thousands.
Your claim of 'hundreds of thousands' has absolutely no backing.

During open conflict, I'm sure there are a lot of uncounted deaths. But we're not dealing with open war now, and we haven't been for years. There is ample time and opporutity to cound the victims of terrorist attacks.

Moreover, you forget that Saddam' s actions could have been diverted without taking him out of power, just with local attacks to his forces, more or less like George father did.
Under "George's father" (and Clinton), we saw:
- Repression/execution of the Marsh Arabs
- Continued starvation of the population
- Lack of political and personal freedoms


No.
I was talking about:
1) attacking Iraqi' s forces, at local level;
2) if Saddam attacks the Kurds, bomb his forces by air;
3) target potential military facilities of Saddam;
4) ..
So you have no problem with military action, but you like to pretend that such actions can be done magically so that nobody gets hurt. And you have no problem interfering with Iraq's sovereignty, as long as the leader stays in charge.

Tell me, what were you going to do about the military forces stationed near civilian infrastrctures? You going to risk bombing them and thus causing civilian casulties? What are you going to do about Saddam's secret police? What are you going to do about people not receiving food/medicine because money from oil sales is diverted to the military? You going to send in ground forces to ensure supplies get to the people who need them?

And more importantly, what are you going to do if the U.N. disagrees with your plan for "attacking Iraq's forces at the local level"? You going to say "Ok, I guess he an keep killing his own people".
No.
I say that the US and Europe should have worked within an international consensus before takling any military measure
Again, another non-answer from you.

I possed the situation (wish I could say it was hypothetical, but its not), where a country is engaging in genocide or similar attrocities, and attempts to work within the U.N. (your supposed measure of 'international consensus') has failed. By your logic, you have no moral objection to such attrocities continuing because the U.N. did not approve of action.

Simply saying "work on a diplomatic solution" is no anwer, since we have plenty of cases where the U.N. has failed to solve conflicts.
 
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In the interests of Putting the E into JREF, the only two elected representatives on the NSC are the Pres and the Vice Pres. The rest are appointed cabinet officers or special assistants to the President, or senior State and Military staff, subject to the usual Congressional advice and consent processes in some cases.

The NSC is a function of the Executive Branch. There are no seats on this council for the Congress. The Congress has its own committees for Security and Defense matters.

FYI

http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/

DR


So what? Isn't the President an elected representative of the American people? Of course he is - you're making my point here.

@Matteo Martini: What do you think about this? :

Threatening Petroeuro?
Oliver (Today)

(Read my first and last message in this thread)
 
So, in other words, what you're saying is that any attrocity can be ignored just in case interverntion might make it worse.

By your logic, if you saw a man raping a woman, you'd ignore it, because getting involved in stopping the assault, you COULD injure the assailant.

By your logic, if you saw a man raping a woman, you'd ignore it, because getting involved in stopping the assault, you COULD kill the victim.

Your claim of 'hundreds of thousands' has absolutely no backing.

During open conflict, I'm sure there are a lot of uncounted deaths. But we're not dealing with open war now, and we haven't been for years. There is ample time and opporutity to cound the victims of terrorist attacks.

Debatable.
Study: War blamed for 655,000 Iraqi deaths
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths/

Under "George's father" (and Clinton), we saw:
- Repression/execution of the Marsh Arabs
- Continued starvation of the population
- Lack of political and personal freedoms

Under George W. ,the situation has greatly improved.

So you have no problem with military action, but you like to pretend that such actions can be done magically so that nobody gets hurt. And you have no problem interfering with Iraq's sovereignty, as long as the leader stays in charge.

I never said such a thing.
Please, re-read and quyote where I wrote " you like to pretend that such actions can be done magically so that nobody gets hurt "

Tell me, what were you going to do about the military forces stationed near civilian infrastrctures? You going to risk bombing them and thus causing civilian casulties? What are you going to do about Saddam's secret police? What are you going to do about people not receiving food/medicine because money from oil sales is diverted to the military? You going to send in ground forces to ensure supplies get to the people who need them?

The best solution should be found for any circumstance

And more importantly, what are you going to do if the U.N. disagrees with your plan for "attacking Iraq's forces at the local level"? You going to say "Ok, I guess he an keep killing his own people".

Why the UN should be staying on Saddam' s side

Again, another non-answer from you.

I possed the situation (wish I could say it was hypothetical, but its not), where a country is engaging in genocide or similar attrocities, and attempts to work within the U.N. (your supposed measure of 'international consensus') has failed. By your logic, you have no moral objection to such attrocities continuing because the U.N. did not approve of action.

Why attempts to work within the UN should fail if US and Europe push hard enough?
 
Again.
Another lie.
I never said that Americans are bad.
I don't think RandFan is lying, he is responding to the words you have written, and the world view that those words infer.
For the 100th time, why on Earth if I did not speak against Saddam, should you consider that I am in favour on him.
Why?
The question is raised due to the slant on some of your comments. I accept that you are and were no big fan of Saddam, but are also not a fan of how America has dealt with Iraq.
You are saying a gross, gross lie about " you give a damn about those who are being killed all around the world " I do not know why I am keeping on replying to you.
The replies, or lack of them, are within your power to control.
My actions?? Which actions??
I think he is referring to the words written and points made in your posts, which in the frame of reference of a forum discussion are "actions."
I am not sure if the number is higher or lower. I was stressing the point, that many times, the worst tragedies are caused by the best intentions.
But, you did not get it.
I think RF gets it, and you will find that most people would agree with you on the problem of outcomes not always fitting intentions of a policy or action.
It is not complete responsibility, it is partial responsibility, as American soldiers do not kill Iraqi civilians ( unless some exceptional cases ), and they have provided regular elections for the Iraqi people.
Indeed, with the unfortunate problem of outcomes not always matching intentions in a dynamic environment. :(
I completely agree that " comparing Iraq to Stalin's purges and Pol Pot's killing fields is intellectually dishonest ", as I have never compared Iraq to Stalin's purges and Pol Pot's killing fields And, I do not think I called you a liar.
But you just did, see above. :confused:

DR
 
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So what? Isn't the President an elected representative of the American people? Of course he is - you're making my point here.
I was correcting your claim in your post that Congressional members were part of the NSC. That is all.

To elaborate, the US Congress and the US Executive Branch frequently clash over how the executive uses its agencies, to include the CIA, to implement US policy. The CIA was massively reformed in the 1970's due to a long process of Congressional hearings and oversight, and again under President Clinton's administration in response to concerns by the elected representatives of the people, the Congress, who were in disagreement with another elected rep of the people, the President/Executive Branch.

That is part of how our system is set up, under the idea of checks and balances. Some people call it "Democracy in action."

DR
 
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By your logic, if you saw a man raping a woman, you'd ignore it, because getting involved in stopping the assault, you COULD kill the victim.
Actually, no, I would get involved. you are the one that
Debatable.
Study: War blamed for 655,000 Iraqi deaths
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths/
Ah yes, the casualty estimate from the Lancet article. You should know that that particular article had many significant flaws:
- If you read the article, they only asked a small fraction of the people for death certificates.
- If I remember correctly, that particular survey used clustering in their sample taking, and the number of clusters was very small (47). What this means is that their surveys often distort results (especially in a place like Iraq, where conflicts will not be uniformly spread.) Other organizations had also used clustered samples, but they tend to use many more clusters (more than 3 times the number.)

A similar study was done several years back by the same team, and it was found that their estimates were 4 to 5 times higher than similar studies done by the U.N., but which used larger numbers of clusters.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009108

Tell me, what were you going to do about the military forces stationed near civilian infrastrctures? You going to risk bombing them and thus causing civilian casulties? What are you going to do about Saddam's secret police? What are you going to do about people not receiving food/medicine because money from oil sales is diverted to the military? You going to send in ground forces to ensure supplies get to the people who need them
The best solution should be found for any circumstance
So, in other words, you havent thought things through enough to actually come up with a coherent strategy for dealing with that stuff. Easier for you to say "A way will magically be found" than to say "I have no idea. Guess those people under Saddam or in Kosovo deserved to die."

Why the UN should be staying on Saddam' s side
Well, lets see... Russia was a major arms supplier to Iraq. Other european countries were beneficiaries under the oil-for-food scandals. Of course, there is also an anti-American bias in many countries (partially deserved, partially not) which may prevent some of them from supporting the U.S. even when it is acting in a 'good' manor.

Or perhaps the U.S. did not make its case for invasion as well as it should. I do believe that Bush made a big mistake by putting more emphasis on WMD and less on links to terrorism and human rights violations. However, if a country truly cared about human rights, they might be willing to say "I don't think the U.S. is right about WMD, but we should go along anyways because Saddam commits genocide".

Why attempts to work within the UN should fail if US and Europe push hard enough?
Because regardless of how hard the U.S. and/or Europe pushes, there is no guarantee that other countries will follow along (especially with China and Russia holding vetos.)

So, once again... I possed the situation (wish I could say it was hypothetical, but its not), where a country is engaging in genocide or similar attrocities, and attempts to work within the U.N. (your supposed measure of 'international consensus') has failed. By your logic, you have no moral objection to such attrocities continuing because the U.N. did not approve of action.
 
So, once again... I possed the situation (wish I could say it was hypothetical, but its not), where a country is engaging in genocide or similar attrocities, and attempts to work within the U.N. (your supposed measure of 'international consensus') has failed. By your logic, you have no moral objection to such attrocities continuing because the U.N. did not approve of action.
On the bright side, all those dead from the UN condoned (by inaction) atrocities can't contribute to Human Caused Global Warming. :p

"Always with the negative waves, Moriarty. Think beautiful thoughts."

DR
 
Debatable.
Study: War blamed for 655,000 Iraqi deaths
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths/

There is absolutely NO physical evidence to support the claim of 655,000 dead at that time in the war. The study was organized and run by a small group of researchers who from the start admitted they were against the war and disliked Bush (one even ran as a democRAT for Congress in the last election and another supported his campaign), who hired a bunch of Iraqis to do the legwork in Iraq who the researchers acknowledge "hated" Americans, and who published their reports in a medical journal (the Lancet) of another country whose editors admitted they wanted to influence our election against the war. In order to do that, the editors of the Lancet rushed the peer review process of the first report and allowed their website to claim the report found that 100,000 Iraqi CIVILIANS were killed (when the report said no such thing). All the anti-war wooriors picked up that 100,000 Iraqi CIVILIANS dead claim and regurgitated it ad-nauseum.

Here are some more criticisms that the researchers, liberal media and anti-war movement members simply ignored about that study:

*********************

1. The 655,000 estimate is many, many times larger than any other estimate out there (and there are about half a dozen others). Those other estimates were more like 50,000 (or less) at the time the John Hopkins study was published. Are they all wrong and only John Hopkins right? Even various anti-war groups such as Human Rights Watch and IraqBodyCount have indicated the John Hopkins' figures are outlandish.

2. The report and the peer reviewer of the report (the Lancet) ignored a major discrepancy between the pre-war mortality estimate derived by the John Hopkins team and the estimates derived by other organizations such as the UN and WHO. The UN and WHO, in larger studies, came up with rates between 7-8 per 1000 per year compared to the John Hopkins' rate of 5-5.5 per 1000 per year. And these larger rates were estimates that the Lancet had previously endorsed as accurate. This pre-war mortality number is one of the key numbers used in determining excess deaths. If it were as high as the UN and WHO found, then the number of excess deaths would be far less, perhaps a tenth as much. Why
didn't the researchers resolve the discrepancy?

3. A contemporary UN Development Program study, http://www.iq.undp.org/ILCS/PDF/Analytical Report - English.pdf , states that there were 24,000 war-related deaths (18,000-29,000, with a 95% confidence level) during the time covered by the Hopkins report. This is approximately one-fourth the number of excess deaths that Les Roberts' 2004 John Hopkins study found. And the UN used similar techniques - clusters, etc. - but with a much larger data set than John Hopkins. Dr Jon Pedersen, who headed that study, is quoted in both the NYTimes and WaPO saying the Lancet numbers are "high, and probably way too high. I would accept something in the vicinity of 100,000 but 600,000 is too much." Here is more onwhat Dr Pedersen thinks about the John Hopkins work: http://psychoanalystsopposewar.org/...-with-jon-pedersen-on-iraq-mortality-studies/.

4. According to the second John Hopkins report, 87 percent of those who claimed deaths were asked to prove it by providing death certificates. According to the researchers, they just forgot to ask the other 13 percent. And of those 87 percent, 92 percent (501 out of 545) were able to provide death certificates. Therefore, if the study is statistically valid, there should be death certificates available for about 92 percent of the total 655,000 estimated dead. But investigations by media sources that are not friendly to the Bush administration or the war have not found evidence of anywhere near that number. The Los Angeles Times, for example, in a comprehensive investigation found less than 50,000 certificates. Let me repeat what one of the authors of the LATimes story, Borzou Daragahi, said in an interview with PBS (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec06/iraq_10-11.html): "the Los Angeles Times thinks these numbers are too large, depending on the extensive research we've done. Earlier this year, around June, the report was published at least in June, but the reporting was done over weeks earlier. We went to morgues, cemeteries, hospitals, health officials, and we gathered as many statistics as we could on the actual dead bodies, and the number we came up with around June was about at least 50,000. And that kind of jibed with some of the news report that were out there, the accumulation of news reports, in terms of the numbers kill. The U.N. says that there's about 3,000 a month being killed; that also fits in with our numbers and with morgue numbers. This number of 600,000 or more killed since the beginning of the war, it's way off our charts." So in order to take the Johns Hopkins' results seriously, you have to believe that the Iraqi government recorded deaths occurring since the invasion with an accuracy of 92 percent, but then suppressed the bulk of those deaths when releasing official figures, with no one blowing the whistle. And you have to believe that all those dead bodies went unnoticed by the mainstream media and everyone else trying to keep track of the war casualties. Alternatively, you have to believe that the Iraqi government only issues death certificates for a small percentage of deaths, but this random sample happened to get 92 percent by pure chance. Or you have to believe that doctors issued death certificates without telling any authorities when so far NOT ONE Iraqi doctor has come forward to say he did that. Every one of those possibilities is ridiculous.

5. When media interviewers of the lead researchers completely misrepresented the results (for example, calling all the dead "civilians"), those researchers (one being Les Robert) made no effort to correct those falsehoods. And they went on to lie, both directly and by omission, about the methodology they used. This is indisputable. For example, here is what another of the John Hopkins researchers, Richard Garfield, told an interviewer: "First of all, very few people refused or were unable to take part in the sample, to our surprise most people had death certificates and we were able to confirm most of the deaths we investigated." That is a LIE since the first study (which is what he was talking about) indicates they confirmed only 7% of the deaths. Les Roberts did the exact same thing in another interview. And so did Burnham, the second studies lead author.

6. In the Garfield interview mentioned above, he stated "And here you see that deaths recorded in the Baghdad morgue were, for a long period, around 200 per month." Let me repeat that figure ... 200 A MONTH, in one of the most populated and most violent regions in the country during the time in question. And now Les Roberts and Burnham are asking us to believe that 15,000 (on average) were dying each month in the country since the war began. How could Garfield not have questions about this new estimate given his previous statement?

7. Richard Garfield is another of those who advocated mortality statistics before the war that are widely divergent from those derived using the Les Roberts/John Hopkins interviews. In fact, Richard Garfield said the most probable number of deaths of under-five children from August 1991 to June 2002 would be about 400,000. His *expert* opinion was that the rate in 2002 would was 9-10 percent. That is compared to the Les Robert's estimate of 2.9 percent. So why didn't Roberts or Garfield or Burnham address this disparity in the latest report? And note that the Lancet blessed and championed the conclusions of Garfield back in 2002. So why did they ignore the discrepancy during their peer reviews?

8. There is NO physical evidence whatsoever to support the claim that 655,000 Iraqis died from the beginning of the war to mid 2006. There are no killing fields filled with bodies or mass graves. There are no photos of these mountains of bodies. There are no videos of this slaughter or the funerals afterwords. There are no reporters, of ANY nationality, saying they saw these bodies or the slaughter. There are no US or foreign soldiers providing evidence of such a slaughter. There are no contractors or folks from any third party providing evidence of this. There is NO physical evidence. And how can that be in a country which has according to the researchers has seen 2.5 percent of its population killed (a percentage greater than the percentage of Germany's and Japan's population killed in World War 2 where there was plenty of physical evidence that such a slaughter had occurred).

9. Dahr Jamail is a viralently anti-American *journalist*. He has close ties to the insurgents and arabs. But look on his website (http://dahrjamailiraq.com/) for any indication that 500, much less 100 Iraqis were dying every single day on average back in 2003 and 2004 (which was during the period covered by not only the second but the first John Hopkins study) when he first started reporting from Iraq. You won't find any indication. Why not? He had access. They had cameras. Why not?

10. The last two years are arguably the most violent period since the invasion. Yet even the Iraqis reported the number killed in 2006 was on the order of 16,000 ... an average of 45 a day. That certainly stands in sharp constrast to the John Hopkins researchers (and their proponents) who claim that more than 500 a day have died every day on average since the invasion began. There are no news accounts of 500 dying in a day. How can this possibly be?

11. But the discrepancy is even worse than that. As noted in this source (http://www.claytoncramer.com/weblog/2006_10_08_archive.html#116069912405842066 ), "The claim is 654,965 excess deaths caused by the war from March 2003 through July 2006. That's 40 months, or 1200 days, so an average of 546 deaths per day. To get an average of 546 deaths per day means that there must have been either many hundreds of days with 1000 or more deaths per day (example: 200 days with 1000 deaths = 200,000 dead leaves 1000 days with an average of 450 deaths), or tens of days with at least 10,000 or more deaths per day (example: 20 days with 10,000 deaths = 200,000 dead leaves 1180 days with an average of 381 deaths). So, where are the news accounts of tens of days with 10,000 or more deaths?" Yes ... where are the news accounts of the many days that should have seen more than a 1000 or even 10,000 deaths? They just don't exist and it's not because reporters weren't in Iraq or had no interest in showing such slaughter. You know the reason.

12. The number of dead the John Hopkins methodology gives in Fallujah is so staggering that even the John Hopkins researchers had to discard the data point. Yet in interviews, Les Roberts has responded as if the Fallujah data was accurate. For example, in an interview with Socialist Workers Online (note who he uses to get his message out), when asked why two thirds of all violent deaths were concentrated in this city, Les Roberts didn't respond "the data was wrong or atypical in Fallujah" as it states in his report. No, instead he answered the question as if he thought the data point was representative of what happened in Fallujah as a whole. He said "we think that our findings, if anything, underestimated the number of deaths because of the number of empty and destroyed houses." If true, then why didn't they stick to their guns and keep the Fallujah data point?

13. John Hopkins claims "We estimate that as of July, 2006, there have been 654,965 (392,979 - 942,636) excess Iraqi deaths as a consequence of the war, which corresponds to 2.5% of the population in the study area. Of post-invasion deaths, 601,027 (426,369 - 793,663) were due to violence, the most common cause being gun fire." But as already mentioned, during World War II, the Allied air forces carpet bombed German cities, using high explosives and incendiaries, and according to The United States Strategic Bombing Survey Summary Report killed an estimated 305,000. So are we to believe that with gun fire (primarily) rather than bombs, twice as many Iraqis have been killed in the last 3 years as died in all Germany during WW2 due to strategic bombing of cities (which completely flattened cities)? Likewise, Japan had about 2 million citizens killed (about 2.7 percent of their population), both military and civilian. Many Japanese cities were firebombed during that war (for example, Tokyo had 100,000 people killed in just one raid). Two cities were attacked with nuclear weapons. And yet Les Roberts, Burnham and his crew want us to believe that just as large a percentage have died in Iraq ... where the Coalition has gone out of its way to avoid civilian deaths?

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Here's what IraqBodyCounts (not by any stretch of the imagination a pro-war or pro-Bush group) had to say about the John Hopkins' study:

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From http://www.iraqbodycount.org/press/pr14.php

A new study has been released by the Lancet medical journal estimating over 650,000 excess deaths in Iraq. The Iraqi mortality estimates published in the Lancet in October 2006 imply, among other things, that:

1. On average, a thousand Iraqis have been violently killed every single day in the first half of 2006, with less than a tenth of them being noticed by any public surveillance mechanisms;

2. Some 800,000 or more Iraqis suffered blast wounds and other serious conflict-related injuries in the past two years, but less than a tenth of them received any kind of hospital treatment;

3. Over 7% of the entire adult male population of Iraq has already been killed in violence, with no less than 10% in the worst affected areas covering most of central Iraq;

4. Half a million death certificates were received by families which were never officially recorded as having been issued;

5. The Coalition has killed far more Iraqis in the last year than in earlier years containing the initial massive "Shock and Awe" invasion and the major assaults on Falluja.

And this:

If these assertions are true, they further imply:

* incompetence and/or fraud on a truly massive scale by Iraqi officials in hospitals and ministries, on a local, regional and national level, perfectly coordinated from the moment the occupation began;

* bizarre and self-destructive behaviour on the part of all but a small minority of 800,000 injured, mostly non-combatant, Iraqis;

* the utter failure of local or external agencies to notice and respond to a decimation of the adult male population in key urban areas;

* an abject failure of the media, Iraqi as well as international, to observe that Coalition-caused events of the scale they reported during the three-week invasion in 2003 have been occurring every month for over a year.

In the light of such extreme and improbable implications, a rational alternative conclusion to be considered is that the authors have drawn conclusions from unrepresentative data. In addition, totals of the magnitude generated by this study are unnecessary to brand the invasion and occupation of Iraq a human and strategic tragedy.

************

If you want to believe nonsense, no one can stop you. But that's what wooriors do.
 

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