It's just a coincidence!!!

[-Fran-]

I like that Dawkins points out that he's fine with celebrating Christmas. Me too, and I'm an atheist. I also have no problem using the Gregorian Calendar without being Christian. Also, it doesn't bother me that the names of the days of the week in English derive mostly from Norse gods. You definitely can't read most western literature without a pretty good knowledge of Classical mythology and the Christian bible.

Yup. I have no problems with any of these things either. Christmas is nice and provides a welcome holiday in a dark and cold time of the year (at least it's dark and cold in Sweden) There's not much left of the Christian stuff in Christmas anyway these days. For my family at least, it's about giving presents and do some serious binge eating And I do think that even atheists need traditions. Christmas, for example, is just not of such importance that it is worthy to start a war against it in the name of Atheism. And some things it would just be too impractical to make a fuss about in the name of atheism (such as our calendar).

That the Norse gods managed to survive in the names of our weekdays under the deluge of Christianity is even kind of cool It amuses me in a very childish sort of way that even the most fundamental Christian nut in many western societies has to acknowledge Tyr, Oden, Tor and Frej in this way

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

There's not much left of the Christian stuff in Christmas anyway these days.

Not to mention that it had pre-Christian origins and still has pre-Christian elements. As they say, "Solstice is the reason for the season!"

Christmas, for example, is just not of such importance that it is worthy to start a war against it in the name of Atheism. And some things it would just be too impractical to make a fuss about in the name of atheism (such as our calendar).

An atheist crusade! Or would it be a jihad? In hoc signo vinces:

That the Norse gods managed to survive in the names of our weekdays under the deluge of Christianity is even kind of cool It amuses me in a very childish sort of way that even the most fundamental Christian nut in many western societies has to acknowledge Tyr, Oden, Tor and Frej in this way

I just read that at least some of these day names were loan-translations from classical mythology (Greek dios hemera or "day of Zeus" became Latin Jovis dies or "Jupiter's day" which became "Thor's Day").

And I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there were antecedents to the Greek.

 

[Rodney]

You're right. In fact, it would mean the wholesale scrapping of several major branches of science.

So what do you think is more likely, that these barely measurable effects that aren't reproducible in other labs are the result of methodological errors, bias and the like, or that nearly all the rest of the sciences are fundamentally wrong?

The latter, obviously. Talk to you in a week or so.

 

[-Fran-]

Not to mention that it had pre-Christian origins and still has pre-Christian elements. As they say, "Solstice is the reason for the season!"

Yup, that too. There's probably been some sort of festivities around that time since time immemorial. Christianity was just rather good at "stealing" the party In Sweden this holiday is called Jul (the old word Yule) and there's no Swedish equivalent for the word "Christmas", even.

An atheist crusade! Or would it be a jihad? In hoc signo vinces:

[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/78/FSM_logo2.svg/250px-FSM_logo2.svg.png[/qimg]

I am sure the FSM is prepared to send his hordes out at any time

I just read that at least some of these day names were loan-translations from classical mythology (Greek dios hemera or "day of Zeus" became Latin Jovis dies or "Jupiter's day" which became "Thor's Day").

And I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there were antecedents to the Greek.

Yeah, that sounds about right! Do you know if Saturday then has a connection to Saturn, saturnalis... ? In Sweden saturday is called Lördag, Lör really being the word Löga which means, washing up. So Saturday was the taking-a-bath-day. I am glad our viking ancestors bathed at least once a week

I'm always curious as to the origins of words, it's very interesting.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Yeah, that sounds about right! Do you know if Saturday then has a connection to Saturn, saturnalis... ?

Yep, it is.

Speaking of Christmas, another of those pre-Christian festivals around the solstice was the Roman Saturnalia. As my high school Latin teacher Sr. Karen explained it (well--to the best of my memory anyway), the persecuted Christians had to hide their festivities within the Roman holiday, and that's the reason they chose that date.

In Sweden saturday is called Lördag, Lör really being the word Löga which means, washing up. So Saturday was the taking-a-bath-day. I am glad our viking ancestors bathed at least once a week

Once a week, whether they needed one or not!

I like the Portuguese nomenclature for the weekdays best: Monday is segunda, Tuesday is terça, Wednesday is quarta, Thursday is quinta, and Friday is sexta.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I'm always curious as to the origins of words, it's very interesting.

An online etymology dictionary: http://www.etymonline.com/

 

[FSM]

This thread has been interesting. Thanks for sharing some of your personal stories, Fran. (And everyone else, too.) And thanks for the gratuitious mention of FSM, you will be blessed by the noodly appendage.

The stories here (and Fran saying, "nicer men of power have been assassinated") reminded me of when I was a kid and went to the JFK Assassination Museum in Dallas. On a wall inside the museum there was a huge discussion of the JFK/Lincoln similarities. I don't know if it is still there, but now I look back and think, "Why the hell would anyone think that it was important to have a bunch of coincidences prominently featured in a historic museum?" I am not sure if there is some sort of reincarnation theory going on or what... seeing as the museum is deep in the heart of Texas Bible Belt land, I doubt reincarnation would be a theory they would feel comfortable espousing.

In case any of you haven't seen it before, here's the list I found just a minute ago. It was entitled "EERIE Similarities Between..." so prepare yourselves for the eerieness...

Eerie Similarities Between
President John Kennedy & Abraham Lincoln

Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846.
John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946

Lincoln failed to win the Vice Presidential nomination in 1856.
Kennedy failed to win the Vice Presidential nomination in 1956.

Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860.
John F. Kennedy was elected President in 1960.

Lincoln defeated Stephen Douglas who was born in 1813.
Kennedy defeated Richard Nixon who was born in 1913.

Both were particularly concerned with civil rights.
Both wives lost children while in the White House.

Both Presidents were shot on a Friday.
Both Presidents were shot in the head.

Lincoln's secretary was named Kennedy.
Kennedy's secretary was named Lincoln.

Both were assassinated by Southerners.
Both were succeeded by Southerners.

Both Presidents had Vice Presidents named Johnson.

Lincoln's Vice President was called Andrew Johnson who served in the House of Representatives in 1847.
Kennedy's Vice President was called Lyndon Johnson who served in the House of Representatives in1947.

Both successors (their Vice Presidents) were named Johnson.
Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808.
Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908.

John Wilkes Booth, who assassinated Lincoln, was born in 1838. (not 1839)!
Lee Harvey Oswald, who assassinated Kennedy, was born in 1939.

Both assassins were known by the three names.
Both names are composed of fifteen letters.

Lincoln was shot at the theatre called "Ford."
Kennedy was shot in a car named "Lincoln", made by Ford.

Booth ran from the theater and was caught in a warehouse.
Oswald ran from a warehouse and was caught in a theater.

Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their trials.

 

[Warge]

Ahh, so that's what happened? Poor King! Well, do you have any nice recommendations?

Want me to recommend something? Oh dear, tough one... But The Stand (Pestens tid) is a classic. As is It (Det). And his first book Carrie, and...

Maybe I should stop - this thread isn't about King unfortunately...

 

[Warge]

Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846.
John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946

Isn't there an election every fourth year in the US? If so, it's not strange they were elected 25 elections apart. Also, Both were wlected in times of turmoil - 1846 it was the slavery, 1946 it was the communism fear.

Lincoln failed to win the Vice Presidential nomination in 1856.
Kennedy failed to win the Vice Presidential nomination in 1956.

Ok, that's cool/eerie. But still a coincidence.

Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860.
John F. Kennedy was elected President in 1960.

Once again, the election every fourth year. How many congressmen have actuall been elected president after 10 years?

Lincoln defeated Stephen Douglas who was born in 1813.
Kennedy defeated Richard Nixon who was born in 1913.

How many congressmen and politician overall were born those years? How many politicians were born different years?

Both were particularly concerned with civil rights.
Both wives lost children while in the White House.

Isn't not being interested in civil rights political suicide? Even if you aren't interested, wouldn't it be a pretty good idea to at least fake it?

For the childrens part, ok, give you that. Or did both kids fall down the same stairs?

Both Presidents were shot on a Friday.
Both Presidents were shot in the head.

Head shot is the way to go if you want a kill. Reagan was shot in the head too but survived amazingly enough.

Lincoln's secretary was named Kennedy.
Kennedy's secretary was named Lincoln.

How common are those names? I have got the impression that at least Kennedy is quite common.

Both were assassinated by Southerners.
Both were succeeded by Southerners.

Or, how many presidents have been from the south totally? How many presidents have come from Minnesota, Maine or Alaska? Hawaii? It seems to me it's a cultural thing - the southerners seems to be a little more, ahem, awake...

Both Presidents had Vice Presidents named Johnson.

Which is how common?

Lincoln's Vice President was called Andrew Johnson who served in the House of Representatives in 1847.
Kennedy's Vice President was called Lyndon Johnson who served in the House of Representatives in1947.

Both successors (their Vice Presidents) were named Johnson.
Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808.
Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908.

At the age of 39 then? How common is that age of politicians on the rise?

[/QUOTE=FSM;2820893]
John Wilkes Booth, who assassinated Lincoln, was born in 1838. (not 1839)!
Lee Harvey Oswald, who assassinated Kennedy, was born in 1939.
[/QUOTE]

And thus, I fail to see the connection here.

Both assassins were known by the three names.
Both names are composed of fifteen letters.

How many names are? And how common is it that people know people by their three names?

Lincoln was shot at the theatre called "Ford."
Kennedy was shot in a car named "Lincoln", made by Ford.

And the Lincoln car is how uncommon? Does the average Joe have it? Has any other president had it?

Booth ran from the theater and was caught in a warehouse.
Oswald ran from a warehouse and was caught in a theater.

With the difference that Oswald was caught in a movie theatre, right? The terms are the same, the actual thing IN the theatre different.

Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their trials.

Does many people like assassins killing presidents? And quite popular presidents then too.

---------

That said, I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here, just trying to think a little further. But if one really try, one can find connections between anything - the connections between the pyramids in Egypt and star constellations comes to mind.

Or, if that wouldn't have worked, why not trying to find a connection between the average sized McDonalds hamburger and the distance to the sun for example?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I can tell you three coincidences which had nothing to do with anything except coincidences, well, the point is some coincidences we attribute to thoughts and therefore a little mysterious, while with other coincidences, woo doesn't even cross our minds.

Years after I left Colorado, I ran into a friend from there at an acquaintance's house in WA State. Then years after that I ran into him again, hiking on Mt Rainier. It isn't like I've bumped into anyone else from my Colorado days.

And once when I was traveling with a friend in Canada, we were hitch-hiking near Banff and had walked quite a ways down the road from any civilization when my shoe fell apart. Not more than a few feet away sat a perfectly good pair of Puma tennis shoes that fit perfectly as well. Just on the side of the road, in the middle of the woods, right when my shoe fell apart and they fit. Now that was a really weird coincidence!

And on that same trip we walked off the road after dark and put down our sleeping bags for the night. It was not where any trails were and we had no light. In the morning we found ourselves surrounded by cacti but had not stepped or sat on a single one.

So coincidences happen all the time. It's just that we want to attribute meaning to some of them but it's really arbitrary.

 

[FSM]

Hey Warge, I agree with you. It's a bunch of interesting coincidences and you did a good job discussing each one.

The fact that they put this list up on the wall REALLY BIG inside a historical museum is a little woo woo for my taste...

 

[Cuddles]

Do you know if Saturday then has a connection to Saturn, saturnalis... ?

And don't forget Sunday and Monday, worshiping pretty much the original pagan gods of the Sun and the Moon.

 

[blobru]

... On a wall inside the museum there was a huge discussion of the JFK/Lincoln similarities. ... It was entitled... Eerie Similarities Between President John Kennedy & Abraham Lincoln ...

One more eerie Lincoln & Kennedy cowinkidink they may not have had room for:

Kennedy had sex with Marilyn Monroe.
Lincoln had a stove pipe hat.
Marilyn Monroe starred in "Seven Year Itch".
A stove pipe is a conductor of heat.
There are seven days in a week.
A conductor rides on a train.
Sunday begins each week.
Trains follow tracks.
Many people go to church on Sunday.
Smokey Robinson sang "Tracks of My Tears".
In church they read The Bible.
Smokey Robinson's backup group was called "The Miracles".
Many miracles occur in The Bible.
My favorite sandwich spread is mustard, with molasses a close second. But after that, if I had to choose one, it would probably have to be -- either peanut butter, or... Miracle Whip!
Whip was what owners did to runaway slaves. Slaves were freed by Lincoln. Mayonnaise tastes slightly better than Miracle Whip. As a teenager, Kennedy was diagnosed with colitis at... the Mayo Clinic.

There. Now if that don't make you believe in woo, you just ain't tryin...

 

[Warge]

Hey Warge, I agree with you. It's a bunch of interesting coincidences and you did a good job discussing each one.

The fact that they put this list up on the wall REALLY BIG inside a historical museum is a little woo woo for my taste...

But of course. How about just for kicks, we try to find the connections between the murder of say arch-duke Ferdinand and the murder of Lincoln? I bet we'll find a dozen there too.

 

[Warge]

One more eerie Lincoln & Kennedy cowinkidink they may not have had room for:

Kennedy had sex with Marilyn Monroe.
Lincoln had a stove pipe hat.
Marilyn Monroe starred in "Seven Year Itch".
A stove pipe is a conductor of heat.
There are seven days in a week.
A conductor rides on a train.
Sunday begins each week.
Trains follow tracks.
Many people go to church on Sunday.
Smokey Robinson sang "Tracks of My Tears".
In church they read The Bible.
Smokey Robinson's back up group was called "The Miracles".
Many miracles occur in The Bible.
My favorite sandwich spread is mustard, with molasses a close second. But after that, if I had to choose one, it would probably have to be -- either peanut butter, or... Miracle Whip!
Whip was what owners did to runaway slaves. Slaves were freed by Lincoln. Mayonaisse tastes slightly better than Miracle Whip. As a teenager, Kennedy was diagnosed with colitis at... the Mayo Clinic.

There. Now if that don't make you believe in woo, you just ain't tryin...

Thank you sir - I hope you realize I got an headache from that...

 

[-Fran-]

Want me to recommend something? Oh dear, tough one... But The Stand (Pestens tid) is a classic. As is It (Det). And his first book Carrie, and...

I saw Pestens tid on VHS a few years back, but never read the book. 'It' I have still to read. Carrie was the first book I ever read by King actually. I remember I had just started 7th grade and moved to a new school, and as I immediately ran to see what was in the library I found and read that one (among many other books). I had no idea who King was then, and it took a few more years, I think, before he became the really big thing, and all people I knew was reading him.

So, in the middle of the 80s I read, in quick succession, Carrie, Salem's Lot (Staden som försvann), Christine, Jurtjyrkogården (Pet Sematary), Varulvens år (Cycle of the Werewolf), Förbannelse (Thinner), Dödsbädden (Night Shift), and quite a few years later still Geralds lek (Gerald's Game). But I haven't read him now since the early 90s. I often have a problem staying true to an author I always jumps to other things, but sometime I do jump back Maybe I should try 'It'?

I think I have seen more films than read books though, when it comes to Stephen King.

Maybe I should stop - this thread isn't about King unfortunately...

That's OK. I am derailing to other subjects too, and it's my thread

 

[Curnir]

wow talk about coincidence. I aquired 'the stand' just last week, and will plow thru it ASAP

Some strange power must be affecting us.

 

[-Fran-]

The fact that they put this list up on the wall REALLY BIG inside a historical museum is a little woo woo for my taste...

I agree, it does seem a bit woo

And, as others have said already, you really want to find weird connections between two things... you probably will

 

[-Fran-]

One more eerie Lincoln & Kennedy cowinkidink they may not have had room for:

Kennedy had sex with Marilyn Monroe.
Lincoln had a stove pipe hat.
Marilyn Monroe starred in "Seven Year Itch".
A stove pipe is a conductor of heat.
There are seven days in a week.
A conductor rides on a train.
Sunday begins each week.
Trains follow tracks.
Many people go to church on Sunday.
Smokey Robinson sang "Tracks of My Tears".
In church they read The Bible.
Smokey Robinson's backup group was called "The Miracles".
Many miracles occur in The Bible.
My favorite sandwich spread is mustard, with molasses a close second. But after that, if I had to choose one, it would probably have to be -- either peanut butter, or... Miracle Whip!
Whip was what owners did to runaway slaves. Slaves were freed by Lincoln. Mayonnaise tastes slightly better than Miracle Whip. As a teenager, Kennedy was diagnosed with colitis at... the Mayo Clinic.

There. Now if that don't make you believe in woo, you just ain't tryin...

*LOL*

WOW, how can I not go woo after all this?

 

[-Fran-]

And don't forget Sunday and Monday, worshiping pretty much the original pagan gods of the Sun and the Moon.

Yup!

Söndag - Sunday (Sun Day)
Måndag - Monday (Moon Day)
Tisdag - Tuesday (Tyr's Day - The one handed god of war.)
Onsdag - Wednesday (One eyed Oden's Day)
Torsdag - Thursday (Tors Day - God of thunder)
Fredag - Friday (Frej or Frö's Day - God of fertility)

But Lördag differs from Saturday.

In Sweden saturday is called Lördag, Lör really being the word Löga which means, washing up. So Saturday was the taking-a-bath-day. I am glad our viking ancestors bathed at least once a week

Hey, didn't people bathe in the Satur- Day countries?

Seriously, I'm surprised I haven't seen fundemental Christian groups who fights for a change in names of the weekdays and similar things, to get rid of the evil paganry (sp?). Or have I just not looked around enough?