Is It Possible There Is An Afterlife?

[andyandy]

The reason your argument is open to such an attack is because you are claiming that some quite theoretical solutions to some parts of what we usually call "QM" throw-up apparently strange things like multiple universes and so on. Yet we know QM is wrong. How does science deal with using theories that are wrong - quite simple really it checks the theory against what we can observe. When we have done that we can say that "QM is accurate at describing X". That is why basing your reasoning on unverified parts of QM is nothing more then speculation, since we do not know if that is one of the descriptions that QM is just wrong about.

I'll try to summarise Greene on this, we have good experimental evidence which is in concordance with the predictions of inflationary cosmology. Basically all the theory requires is that quantum fluctuations are stretched out through inflation - and through measurements of the temperatures in space we can see evidence for this in minute temperature differences (2.7249K in one spot, 2.7251K in another) - predictions for how this temperature should vary using inflationary cosmology and the actual measurements have a remarkable agreement. This experimental success has convinced many physicists of the inflationary models' validity.

In a way yes but only in the sense of acknowledging what we already know i.e. not only are our theories incomplete but they are wrong. And we know they are wrong because they cannot describe the actual universe we observe.

We may be using different definitions of "wrong" here - they are only wrong if you regard a theory as a theory of everything - and thus every theory that does not describe everything by definition must be flawed. This logic does require that we abandon GR, QM, the standard model and everything else despite their spectacular predictive success within the areas in which they operate....and lots of physicists will go hungry

my position (1) is it....

1) based on what we know, this is what we think (about x)

trying to summarise your position;

2i) based on what we know we don't know, we shouldn't think (about x)
2ii) based on what we know we don't know, we don't know (about x)(strong)

we don't know (weak) would be (1)
we don't know (strong) would be that we can't use that which we know to form any opinion

or is it something else?

 

[Oppressed]

My point with this thread is not simple and thus covers many areas over which one can argue.

Just to make sure it is understood, I am not stating we are in fact living in some version of a virtual reality. What I am saying is that, given the Human Race does not become extinct first:
1) We will achieve the technology to live such long lives as to be virtually immortal
2) We will be able to create virtual realities so vivid and fully immersing that those actively in them will be only know of that reality until they come out.
3) Virtual realities that would reflect what we currently perceive of as reality will be made and the fact they are often so mundane will be highly prized because of their realism.

If this were a virtual reality, then our Universe is probably only as old as civilized history. The rest was just created to appear as it is to give us our realistic backdrop. We would be unable to pierce the veil to find proof our existence was not real.

That is, in fact, one of the important points of this idea.

It is impossible for supernatural events to be scientifically proven. God, spirits, angels, devils, souls and spirits can not be proven within science. But we do like to believe they exist.

If supernatural beings exist, why can’t we prove it? One way that could explain it is that the, what to us are, Immortal Spirits who control our existence do not want us to know and they actively use their power over our existence to prevent us from being able to prove the existence of the supernatural. If some mistake allows some proof to be known, that proof is discredited. If the mistake is too large to discredit, the event is erased from having happened and our reality is re-written so that the mistake never occurred.

If this has already happened, who is to say how the technology of those Immortal Beings works? Maybe it is unlike anything we know? To us it would be magic and supernatural power. But what is the difference between magic and technology? (Understanding how it works).

Who is to say that these Immortal Beings are headed up by a single originator themselves? This originator might then qualify for the being Christianity calls God. This God then creates other Immortals using power over creation that this originator understands. To this originator, the power used is technology to it but divine power to us.

In Christianity, do we not all have Immortal Souls? If you have an Immortal Soul, that means your Soul will exist for all eternity. All eternity is a very, very long time. A mortal life is very short.

It is clearly logical then that if you have an Immortal Soul and you are living a Mortal Life, then you will not only live many more Mortal Lives but you have already lived many Mortal Lives.

By our understanding, this would all work through supernatural power or the Divine Power of God. But to God, it is technology, because God understands how it works.

Realizing that the Human Race is heading towards having the technology to do this can then give us the realization that it may have already happened and thus actually give a logical way to support how Christianity can in fact be founded in truth.

It can also then lead us to think of a deeper reason as to what purpose our mortal lives serve. Doing this can benefit us whether or not we do have an Immortal existence beyond this Mortal one.

 

[calebprime]

...
It can also then lead us to think of a deeper reason as to what purpose our mortal lives serve. Doing this can benefit us whether or not we do have an Immortal existence beyond this Mortal one.

This post was a lot more clear than the last 2. Thank you for that.

There are several things in your post worth addressing. I'm going to answer only one.

In a sufficiently perfect VR simulation, there is no difference between simulation and reality. So there are absolutely no consequences.

Anything can lead us to think 'deeper'. I'm not being snarky. Picking my toes often puts me in a calm, reflective state of mind. Or maybe being in a calm, reflective state of mind causes me to pick my toes.

In any case, no one remembers a previous existence and in this VR it sure looks like we are mortal biological critters. So, what follows? Heroism, good works, kindness to children? Nihilism? Mayhem?

Answer: None of those follow. I'm kind to my child because I want to be and it makes me feel good. I compose because I must. Whether this is a VR or an RV I'm living in doesn't matter.

I'm a believer that philosophy is mostly disguised autobiography. What is it that gives you these ideas?

 

[Oppressed]

How many religions believe we have immortal souls or spirits which continue after our mortal lives cease?

If such immortal souls do exist in some supernatural world there would exist a society within which these immortal souls interact. Within their society they would have power to perform the things they do, just as we do in our world. To us, we would consider their power magic, because we do not understand how it works. To them, it would be technology, because they would understand it.

In some religions there is the belief our immortal soul is re-incarnated over and over again to live repeated mortal lives while our immortal soul learns and progresses up the ladder of enlightenment. In this belief, the person living any one particular incarnation normally does not remember their past lives. But, there are some that claim they do remember past lives.

The point I am trying to get at here is that according to many existing religions, if not most religions, in Human history there is the ability to consider that some beings we would consider immortal created our world, have power over our world and that we have immortal souls that after our mortal life go to exist in the supernatural world of the immortals that created this mortal world. For this to be true, these immortal beings had to have the power to create our world.

Skeptics of the supernatural base their skepticism upon the fact that it is not possible to prove the supernatural exists using the scientific process. This is in fact the beginning of the thought process by which I came up with the idea I am talking about. As a teen, many years ago, I tried to see if I could come up with a theory which could explain why we can not prove it is correct and yet we could prove it is possible.

If Immortal beings created our world and are living repeated mortal lives, they can have good reason to prevent us from gaining proof of their supernatural existence. You could call the power or rule they put in place to achieve this, the “Veil”. Because these immortal beings have such total control over our existence, they could enforce the veil and we could not prove the veil exists.

 

[Faithkills]

How many religions believe we have immortal souls or spirits which continue after our mortal lives cease?

How many ad campaigns feature hot babes?

How many cultures have invented sandwiches?

How many religions figured out the benefits of offering immortality as a reward for obedience?

People do things because they work. If religion offered people the ultimate truth on their deathbed, that they had been duped in the worst way their whole life, people wouldn't sign up now would they?

They tried beer commercials showing the average shlubs who drink beer. It didn't work so well. Hot babes sell more beer.

They tried religion without eternal life. If didn't work so well. Eternal life sells more religion.

 

[Anacoluthon64]

To us, we would consider their power magic, because we do not understand how it works. To them, it would be technology, because they would understand it.

Clarke's 3^rdLaw.

In some religions there is the belief our immortal soul is re-incarnated over and over again to live repeated mortal lives while our immortal soul learns and progresses up the ladder of enlightenment. In this belief, the person living any one particular incarnation normally does not remember their past lives. But, there are some that claim they do remember past lives.

What mechanism maps the identity of a living person (or animal) onto an insubstantial entity, one that supposedly never leaves any proverbial footprint in the material world? In other words, how can one say that this soul belongs to that individual?

The point I am trying to get at here is that according to many existing religions, if not most religions, in Human history there is the ability to consider that some beings we would consider immortal created our world, have power over our world and that we have immortal souls that after our mortal life go to exist in the supernatural world of the immortals that created this mortal world. For this to be true, these immortal beings had to have the power to create our world.

Our "ability to consider" also covers many impossible things. But your reasoning is circular here.

Skeptics of the supernatural base their skepticism upon the fact that it is not possible to prove the supernatural exists using the scientific process.

No. It is based on a dearth of good evidence and the dictum, "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem."

If Immortal beings created our world and are living repeated mortal lives, they can have good reason to prevent us from gaining proof of their supernatural existence. You could call the power or rule they put in place to achieve this, the “Veil”. Because these immortal beings have such total control over our existence, they could enforce the veil and we could not prove the veil exists.

And if they interact materially with the world in a manner counter to natural law, there would be physical evidence of that. If, on the other hand, they are constrained to act only within natural law, then their existence can hardly matter while we are alive.

'Luthon64

 

[Oppressed]

Given the Human Race does not become extinct.

We will develop the technology to create a virtual environment such as I am describing. Keep in mind what we have already developed and that we have but begun to scratch the surface of what we will be able to do.

For example, we have some limited idea of the processing ability of a Human brain and it is quite impressive even though it is not that big. At some point we will merge our non-biological technology with our biological technology at which point we will not only have the full processing capability of a Human brain through deliberate design but the ability to integrate and augment that ability with our most advanced computer technology. This will provide many things, one of them being vast processing power in a small space. Another will be the ability to totally interface with all the sensory input of ones brain. Yet another will be the ability to partition by design parts of the brains experiencing of things, something we already sometimes do in our dreams.

A quick point about dreams. We can dream of being someone else and in that dream have no conscious knowledge of who we really are or the fact that we are dreaming. Such dreams can be so real that when the person wakes up they can feel unsure as to whether or not it was a dream. Sometimes the person will decide it was a memory of a past life.

For example, we already know that to perform simulated realities from the standpoint of an individual interfacing with a larger world, you do not need to process every single detail of that world. You need only process enough detail as to supply the sensory input to that individual that creates a convincing virtual reality. Because an individual in such a virtual reality is totally immersed in it, they would be unable to perceive beyond it. If some piece of information was not kept in enough detail for purposes of data compression, when the individual needed that information, something close enough to what it was originally could be instantly re-created. How would the person know any difference? They could check their memory, but the simulation is in control of their memory, so they will remember whatever the simulation tells them to. They could check some detailed record, but the simulation is in control of that detailed record and so could make it be whatever was necessary. They could check the actual physical object, but that too would be under control of the simulation and be whatever was necessary to maintain the simulations integrity. Even if a mistake occurred, the minds, memories and physical evidence of the mistake could all be changed so that the mistake effectively never happened.

For example, eventually the entire crust of the Earth will be rebuilt into a contiguous structure. This contiguous structure will incorporate all the functions of our future society. One of the major things this structure will have is a massive living computer incorporated in and distributed through the structure encompassing the planet. Similar massive structures with massive living computers will be built out every planet in our solar system. Each of these now living planets in a solar system would be closely linked in communication with each other. I do not know how great the processing power will be, but it will be immense.

 

[MrFrankZito]

As long as brains die and rot, there shan't be an afterlife.

The brain is the place in which one's personality, memories and character are stored. Without personality, memories and character, what sort of afterlife might there be?

Make brain death a reversible process, and you have potential for an afterlife--although I presume it would need to be a corporeal one (whatever that might mean).

 

[arthwollipot]

Given the Human Race does not become extinct.

We will develop the technology to create a virtual environment such as I am describing.

How do you know that? Do you have some magical insight into what will and will not be possible in the future?

I contend that there are some things that we can imagine that we will not develop the capability for. This may be one of them. There's no way to know.

 

[Oroborus]

Lets take it a step further, would you really like there to be an afterlife? And more importantly, do they serve cake?

 

[Oppressed]

Arthwollipot,

We are already creating and using computer generated environments for a great many things and for a great many reasons. We have already interfaced silicon chips with living neural cells. We have programs going on right now on building an artificial Human brain.

Our technology in these areas is still in its infancy, at least from my point of view.

Without developing any new major scientific breakthroughs we can predict a lot of what we will be able to do, being only a matter of getting the techniques down. In other words, we already know it can be done, but exactly how to do it is a difficult puzzle which we know can be solved in time.

Just mastering the use of the scientific discoveries we have already made will give us the power to fully link with a Human Brain and create virtual realities so real that those inside them would be unaware they were in a virtual reality if that was part of the intended program.

I am not saying we are actually in such a virtual reality. But, if we were, we could not prove it because the program would prevent us from doing so.

If something like this were true, then we could potentially have an afterlife beyond this one.

 

[The Grave]

Christ waht a really stupid idea! I wish I'd thought of it!

I am writing this to challenge James Randi’s solid belief that there is no afterlife. At least, I read an article that indicated to me he believes that there is no afterlife.

I believe it is possible there can be an afterlife. I don’t know whether or not there is, but it could be possible and I will explain why.

To explain why I start first with looking at the future of Humanity with the following assumption, that Humanity does not kill itself off or become extinct due to some other reason before achieving mastery over Molecular Engineering.

As the Human Race masters molecular engineering, our society will change so drastically it is really impossible to say exactly what it will be like. However, there are a few things that are certain.

1. Some, if not all, Humans will become virtually Immortal, able to live open ended life spans which last for tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands or more years. The greatest cause of death will be suicide due to boredom and depression.
2. Virtual realities will be available where the connection to the user will be so complete that the user can become completely submersed in the identity of the character they are playing. The sensory input would be so detailed as to be undistinguishable from real life. The mind of the player while in the Virtual Reality would be so immersed as to fully believe and know only what the character being played is supposed to. Thus while living the mortal life, the Virtual Immortal will not know they are actually a Virtual Immortal. That would become a very important part of the Mortal lives lived.
3. The importance of such Virtual Realities will be tremendous, because they will help keep the Virtual Immortals from becoming bored, depressed and committing suicide. These Virtual Realities will also become very important because they will be able to teach moral concepts that Mortals learn but Immortals would have a very hard time learning. This would lead to the full Mortal Life Virtual Realities.

In effect, what this means is that, assuming the Human Race does not become extinct, we will become a race of virtually Immortal beings who repeatedly live Mortal Lives as a vitally important requirement to their mental health and ability to continue living an open ended life span.

Now, time is very long.

Who says this has not already occurred.

If it has already occurred, then we may be virtually immortal beings who are living multiple mortal lives and our current mortal life is but one of many we have lived.

If some thing lives at all it is termed life....... After life, is death!


Christ above, when are these clowns who pretend to be intellectual actually going to learn anything?

God give me strength to educated them....!

Life is life - in heaven/hell/a computer game etc as long as you fulfil the requirements of your definition of it.

There is no such thing as 'after' life; unless you mean dead!

Which is what your brain must be....

Griff...

PS it's indistinguishable!

 

[The Grave]

Nop!

Arthwollipot,

We are already creating and using computer generated environments for a great many things and for a great many reasons. We have already interfaced silicon chips with living neural cells. We have programs going on right now on building an artificial Human brain.

Our technology in these areas is still in its infancy, at least from my point of view.

Without developing any new major scientific breakthroughs we can predict a lot of what we will be able to do, being only a matter of getting the techniques down. In other words, we already know it can be done, but exactly how to do it is a difficult puzzle which we know can be solved in time.

Just mastering the use of the scientific discoveries we have already made will give us the power to fully link with a Human Brain and create virtual realities so real that those inside them would be unaware they were in a virtual reality if that was part of the intended program.

I am not saying we are actually in such a virtual reality. But, if we were, we could not prove it because the program would prevent us from doing so.

If something like this were true, then we could potentially have an afterlife {A LIFE EXTENDED - not an 'after' life} beyond this one.

Toot toot!

 

[Oppressed]

polaristutoring@tisc,

It is a shame you are responding. It is clear you have no interest in any kind of reasonable discussion, nor are you open to any ideas which might disagree with your viewpoint.

You are so fanatical over this that even when someone wants to discuss an unlikely but still possible idea, you simply want to shoot it down rather than consider anything outside your own viewpoint.

I’ve begun to notice that as a general trend on this forum. People posting here seem extremely closed to any viewpoint other than their own. If what is posted does not agree with their viewpoint, they don’t even want to hear about it.

Very closed minded, shallow, lacking of imagination and devoid of creativity.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Heck, I will.
I say that time has not yet been long enough for humans to have developed the science necessary to do this.

While it has not happened yet, science is most certainly working on it-and who dares doubt the power of science? Science is determined to prolong life, but in the process, it may create an afterlife. Afterall, our consciousness is located in our head, ever see the cartoon Futurama?

 

[arthwollipot]

Arthwollipot,

We are already creating and using computer generated environments for a great many things and for a great many reasons. We have already interfaced silicon chips with living neural cells. We have programs going on right now on building an artificial Human brain.

Certainly. But that doesn't mean we'll inevitably get to the point that you describe.

Our technology in these areas is still in its infancy, at least from my point of view.

Of course it is. But that doesn't mean we'll inevitably get to the point that you describe.

Without developing any new major scientific breakthroughs we can predict a lot of what we will be able to do, being only a matter of getting the techniques down. In other words, we already know it can be done, but exactly how to do it is a difficult puzzle which we know can be solved in time.

Absolutely. But that doesn't mean we'll inevitably get to the point that you describe.

Just mastering the use of the scientific discoveries we have already made will give us the power to fully link with a Human Brain and create virtual realities so real that those inside them would be unaware they were in a virtual reality if that was part of the intended program.

I am not saying we are actually in such a virtual reality. But, if we were, we could not prove it because the program would prevent us from doing so.

If something like this were true, then we could potentially have an afterlife beyond this one.

Potentially yes. If something like this were true. Unfortunately we have no way of knowing whether it is true or not, so I'm afraid I must remain agnostic.

 

[Oppressed]

I’m finding it very discouraging to post on this forum.

There seems to be little to no interest in hearing other people’s ideas or thoughts. To consider someone else’s viewpoint or even the consideration for a possible viewpoint seems to result in a massive effort to tear down what that person says with no attempt to consider what is said.

Perhaps that is the nature of this forum, the primary goal of the posters being to do their best at arguing against whatever is said unless it is exactly how they see it should be. I keep looking for examples of people being interested in hearing others viewpoints and I don’t see that here.

This seems a forum for the closed minded who want only to argue down any who disagree with them without making an effort to consider the other persons viewpoint.

Maybe this is not the case, but that sure is how it appears to me. The aggressive style of posting also makes me feel like posting in similar manner.

I’ll have to see if there is another forum with people of imagination that are interested in hearing of others ideas and sharing their ideas in a more friendly and open minded manner.

 

[Dorian Gray]

If we're immortal, how can we live mortal lives?

There is an afterlife. It's whatever happens after you stop being alive. It's not a place, though.

 

[Oppressed]

Dorian Gray,

Are you interested in considering the improbable and discussing it out of interest, for fun and the possibility it might give thought to some useful idea?

I’ll try again and see what happens.

Let us begin with an improbable set of circumstances:

You belong to a race of beings whose life span is such to us that we consider you to be immortal. You exist in a higher level existence than we do but your are able to exist in our world by joining in the life of a mortal Human.

When you join with the life of a mortal Human you do so at the point of conception and you stay bound to the mortal Human for the life of the Human. While joined with the Human you know only what the Human knows. When the Human dies, you awaken with your full memories plus the memories of the mortal life you just lived.

While you are joined with the mortal life of a Human you are referred to by Mortal Humans as the Immortal Soul of the person you are joined with.

This is a common theme for multiple religions.

It can also be a theme for some non-religious implausible theories to explain our existence. One of those implausible possibilities is that we are a virtually simulated existence by a very advanced race. I am not saying it has any reasonable probability of being true.

But, if this were true, there are a number of interesting ideas that can be discussed and considered.

Would you be interested in discussing some of the possible implications that something like this might entail.

For example, if you have a race of immortal beings, why would they want to live a mortal life like ours?

 

[edge]

When you join with the life of a mortal Human you do so at the point of conception and you stay bound to the mortal Human for the life of the Human. While joined with the Human you know only what the Human knows. When the Human dies, you awaken with your full memories plus the memories of the mortal life you just lived.

While you are joined with the mortal life of a Human you are referred to by Mortal Humans as the Immortal Soul of the person you are joined with.

This is a common theme for multiple religions.

It can also be a theme for some non-religious implausible theories to explain our existence. One of those implausible possibilities is that we are a virtually simulated existence by a very advanced race. I am not saying it has any reasonable probability of being true.

There is a war of principalities on the other side this is the proving ground to see which side we will take through faith.
Our memory chips have been wiped clean when we were born.
To see what our true nature really is.
Since we were there in the beginning, if we retained the memories we would be cheating the test.
The first humans let that war continue into this realm.
The teacher was in the room till they cheated.
He was going to expel all of us till a substitute volunteered.

That substitute is giving us the test as an open book test.
Because he knows we are blind and it’s in Braille since we can feel.
Feeling is what we do the best.
And he made it simple with one question and one answer.
The first test was for collage level and we were in kinter garden still.

What do we do when a computers program goes bad?
We wipe it clean and install a new operating system.
We start over; it’s kind of like Microsoft.
Now a days when the computer gets old it’s circuits burn out and we now have the capabilities to take the memories out and install them in a new computer.

Our transfer into the super computer has to have a virus scan by Jesus.10 free edition, the super God computer will not allow a sinful virus brought in by us to infect him.
That’s why there’s a firewall called hell.
For those stubborn viruses that purposefully reject the anti viruses programs attempt, to wipe it clean.
Have a nice day L>M>H>O>.

Almost forgot.
The viruse call Satin is still in cyber space so look out upgrade your viruse protection, it's not atomatic.::