Pentagon Attack Witnesses - dissecting their testimony and credibility

[Totovader]

From what angles do you think a sudden pull up and fly over would have been seen? Remember, what you claim wasn't witnessed by ANY witnesses, including yours.

While this is entirely true- it only allows Lyte to derail the thread away from the witnesses we are discussing.

Please do not continue to discuss his ridiculous fly-over theory. Doing so will only allow him to dismiss the witnesses at his leisure and disappear as he always does.

 

[Lyte Trip]

From what angles do you think a sudden pull up and fly over would have been seen? Remember, what you claim wasn't witnessed by ANY witnesses, including yours.

He was at the entrance. He didn't see either.

We don't know how high or low the plane was when it went over OR to the side of the building (yes there is a reporter account stating that a witness said this).

We know it was on the North side. That has been confirmed. The North side flight path disproves the impact.

Robert Turcios, a reliable and genuine witness who was in the best position to see it pull up and who thinks it hit, saw it pull up over Rt. 27.

Skarlet from Punkprincess.com said something made her think the plane "banked up at the last minute".

 

[Lyte Trip]

Do you have any evidence that he would have needed to "see around a corner" to describe what he described?

"South Parking lot about to walk and turn up to a sidewalk to an entrance"

You have to prove that his statements could not possibly be true. You have not done that. Saying that "the Pentagon is a five-sided structure" is non-sequitur. The number of sides of the structure has no bearing on whether the witness was accurate or not.

He told a reporter that the plane hit a helicopter on the Helipad, Toto.

 

[Lyte Trip]

From what angles do you think a sudden pull up and fly over would have been seen? Remember, what you claim wasn't witnessed by ANY witnesses, including yours.

Why didn't they report the 2nd plane shadowing it and flying over the Pentagon?

Does this prove it didn't really happen and that the people who reported this are all lying?

What is their motive to lie?

 

[Lyte Trip]

TAM,

Are you just going to let it go when people like toto insist that Hal Bidlack was a witness to the attack?

He was wrong and you know it.

Are you going to list people that were simply there on that day or did they have to actually witness the "attack" as stated in the OP?

You need to make this clear because toto is accepting anyone and everyone regardless of their claims and regardless of what they saw or where they were.

Here is the list so far:

1. Steve Anderson: about 2 miles away at old USA Today building in Rosslyn. Deduded impact. Didn't mention second plane/jet over the Pentagon, that was chasing shadowing all the way up to the wall.

2. Deb Anlauf: About 1 mile away at Sheraton. Could not see details of impact but did have a view of alleged impact wall. Didn't mention second plane/jet over the Pentagon, that was chasing shadowing all the way up to the wall.

3. Gary Bauer: On 395 headed toward DC. No clear view of alleged impact point. Deduced impact. Didn't mention second plane/jet over the Pentagon, that was chasing shadowing all the way up to the wall.

4. Hal Bidlack. Was inside building at the time of the attack. Deduced impact.

5. Licoln Leibner. At south entrance. Deduced impact. Didn't mention second plane/jet over the Pentagon, that was chasing shadowing all the way up to the wall.

6. Donald R. Bouchoux: Does not specifically claim he "saw" the impact. He states "the plane impacted the building" but unless you confirm with him that he "saw" it you can not fairly assume that he did. Plus his claim that the blast moved his car about a foot can not be true otherwise a lot more people on route 27 would have reported this especially those who were traveling north and were therefore CLOSER to the blast. Didn't mention second plane/jet over the Pentagon, that was chasing shadowing all the way up to the wall.

 

[Totovader]

"South Parking lot about to walk and turn up to a sidewalk to an entrance"

This is not an answer to my question. I asked if you have any information or evidence that what he was describing was not possible.

He told a reporter that the plane hit a helicopter on the Helipad, Toto.

Again, not an answer to my question. I'm aware that the reporter said this- however we do not have a quote from him on this. I think it would be reasonable to assume that the reporter was misstating him- that he probably said something a bit less confident, possibly along the lines of "I think it must have hit a helicopter on the helipad".

Regardless- let's stipulate that he actually did say that he saw a helicopter get hit on the helipad. Well, then- Lyte, what evidence do you have that he's wrong?


Note to everyone else: Let Lyte walk into this on his own- please do not answer the question for him.

 

[Lyte Trip]

Again, not an answer to my question. I'm aware that the reporter said this- however we do not have a quote from him on this. I think it would be reasonable to assume that the reporter was misstating him- that he probably said something a bit less confident, possibly along the lines of "I think it must have hit a helicopter on the helipad".

Regardless- let's stipulate that he actually did say that he saw a helicopter get hit on the helipad. Well, then- Lyte, what evidence do you have that he's wrong?


Note to everyone else: Let Lyte walk into this on his own- please do not answer the question for him.

Do not assume. Confirm. Record it too so we can hear how you clarified it.

 

[Totovader]

TAM,

Are you just going to let it go when people like toto insist that Hal Bidlack was a witness to the attack?

He was wrong and you know it.

Are you going to list people that were simply there on that day or did they have to actually witness the "attack" as stated in the OP?

You need to make this clear because toto is accepting anyone and everyone regardless of their claims and regardless of what they saw or where they were.

Here is the list so far:

1. Steve Anderson: about 2 miles away at old USA Today building in Rosslyn. Deduded impact.

2. Deb Anlauf: About 1 mile away at Sheraton. Could not see details of impact but did have a view of alleged impact wall.

3. Gary Bauer: On 395 headed toward DC. No clear view of alleged impact point. Deduced impact.

4. Hal Bidlack. Was inside building at the time of the attack. Deduced impact.

5. Licoln Leibner. At south entrance. Deduced impact.

6. Donald R. Bouchoux: Does not specifically claim he "saw" the impact. He states "the plane impacted the building" but unless you confirm with him that he "saw" it you can not fairly assume that he did. Plus his claim that the blast moved his car about a foot can not be true otherwise a lot more people on route 27 would have reported this especially those who were traveling north and were therefore CLOSER to the blast.

Your statements do not reflect whether these witnesses are credible or not. We have asserted that you are unable to address this, and instead have a desire to derail this thread. This is evidenced by your refusal to answer direct questions.

Whether they "deduced" impact based on your personal feelings is not the topic of this discussion. Please reread the OP.

The list, instead should read as follows:

1. Steve Anderson: Credible
2. Deb Anlauf: Credible
3. Gary Bauer: Credible
4. Hal Bidlack. Credible- not that there was ever any question of it
5. Licoln Leibner. Credible
6. Donald R. Bouchoux: Credible

You have offered no information to the contrary, and a reasoned investigation into their statements proves them to be accurate, with a few minor differences on insignificant details. But... that's how witnesses go.

Shall we continue?

 

[Totovader]

Do not assume. Confirm. Record it too so we can hear how you clarified it.

There's no need to.

You did not answer my question.

Again, the question was: "Regardless- let's stipulate that he actually did say that he saw a helicopter get hit on the helipad. Well, then- Lyte, what evidence do you have that he's wrong?"

You've avoided enough questions during this discussion. This one needs to be answered.

 

[T.A.M.]

Lyte:

Please check at the bottom of the page to see if I am online at the forum. If I am not, do not assume I am "allowing" anything. I started thread, and I am trying to moderate it, to a degree, to keep it from official moderation, but I do not own it.

That said, i do wish to keep this examination of witnesses to those who in some way or another claim to have witnessed the crash, or those who saw enough that we could deduce that the crash had to occur as they discribe it. Hal Bidlack, while a hero, and an honorable man, has not testified to actually seeing the plane hit, so we should not be debating his testimony. he did make comment in this thread, so if the rebuttal/discussion focuses on that, and is brief, I think it is ok.

TAM

 

[Lyte Trip]

This is not an answer to my question. I asked if you have any information or evidence that what he was describing was not possible.

Um yes I did. Are you not getting this?

Where was Lincoln Liebner when he saw the plane? Did you read his account?

Place him where he is at based on what his account states, then tell me he could have seen the impact and not deduced it.

 

[Lyte Trip]

The list, instead should read as follows:

1. Steve Anderson: Credible
2. Deb Anlauf: Credible
3. Gary Bauer: Credible
4. Hal Bidlack. Credible- not that there was ever any question of it
5. Licoln Leibner. Credible
6. Donald R. Bouchoux: Credible

Like a drunk on a steamroller huh?

Just curious how many of those witnesses saw the plane on the South side of the Citgo, which is requred for the impact?

 

[T.A.M.]

I also wish to change the wording of Witness classification here. I would like to go with:

1. Witness saw impact.
2. Witness saw enough to reasonably assume impact.

Fair enough?

TAM

 

[T.A.M.]

Like a drunk on a steamroller huh?

Just curious how many of those witnesses saw the plane on the South side of the Citgo, which is requred for the impact?

South of Citgo is not required for impact. It is allegedly required to fit the damage done in the pentagon as described in the reports.

TAM

 

[Totovader]

Um yes I did. Are you not getting this?

Where was Lincoln Liebner when he saw the plane? Did you read his account?

Place him where he is at based on what his account states, then tell me he could have seen the impact and not deduced it.

No, you did not. I asked you if you had any information which would prove that his statements were not possible. I read the account, and your reply offers no evidence that would contradict his statements at all.

You instead provided your personal beliefs as to how he deduced impact- which is related to your stupid fly-over theory, not the discussion of this thread.

I'm going to assume that you cannot answer the question, just so that we can move on.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

I have a new theory. Hugo Chavez is behind 9/11. He fired the rockets from the Citgo station.


What....?

 

[Totovader]

Like a drunk on a steamroller huh?

As usual- this rebuttal is insufficient.

Just curious how many of those witnesses saw the plane on the South side of the Citgo, which is requred for the impact?

Your curiosity is not my concern, nor is it the discussion of this thread.

You have no rebuttal to the list- as corrected. As such, we'll move on.

 

[T.A.M.]

I have the list as follows:

1.. Steve Anderson - saw enough to reasonably assume impact.

2. Deb Anlauf: - saw impact.

3. David Battle - saw enough to reasonably assume impact.

4. Gary Bauer: - saw enough to reasonably assume impact.

5. Hal Bidlack. - not a visual witness to impact.

6. Licoln Leibner. - saw enough to reasonably assume impact.

7. Donald Bouchoux - Undetermined as of yet.

TAM

 

[Lyte Trip]

Let's see if toto concedes he was incorrect or continues to count Hal Bidlack as a "credible" witness to the attack.

 

[T.A.M.]

Lets settle it, and move on...next witness is Donald Bouchoux, as Arus has listed up at the top of this thread.

TAM