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The Problem With The Supernatural

Is "we're computers of a sort" in that bad lot?

Yes.

Why is that worse or not in the "bad lot"?

Because to the best of our knowledge, no other computers are conscious, nor do we have any serious idea of how to make them so. We explain our possession of property P by membership in a group that otherwise doesn't include P.

Imagine how that would fly if we tried it with other categories and properties.

"Why do duck-billed platypuses lay eggs"? "Because they're mammals of a sort."

"Why is TIger Woods the best golfer alive today?" "Because he's an American."

"Why does glass break so easily?" "Because it's made of silicon oxide, just like this piece of granite and that piece of basalt."

"Why do we eat tomatoes?" "Because they're members of the nightshade family, which has some of the most deadly poisons known to mankind."
 
That's true, but we are also part of a continuum of animals that, at least in my opinion, appears to span a continuum of mindless machines to fully conscious.

Despite your legitimate objections, how does "we have a soul" still turn out to be better?

Paraphrasing: We explain our possession of property P by membership in a group that otherwise is (circularly)defined as possessing property S which is the group that possesses property P.
 
I don't need a "mathematical equation" for consciousness, but a causal explanation would be nice. "God created our souls in his image" is at least causal. "Luck" isn't, nor is a vague wave of the hands and a muttering of the mystic incantation "neural architecture."

I hate to say it, but you, drkitten, role model for many JREF members, talk favorably of god and souls and that might make you a woo in the eyes of judgemental skeptics. Believe me, I'm not one to point the finger at a theist, you still have time to make your point more clear.

If you choose to hold your ground I stick by my opinion creation will be explained by math someday and will continue the discusion if you wish. Just remember you are now the woo guy believing in souls.
 
That's true, but we are also part of a continuum of animals that, at least in my opinion, appears to span a continuum of mindless machines to fully conscious.

Yes. That's probably the best naturalistic/materialistic argument out there. But it's still unsatisfactory, since it doesn't actually explain.


Despite your legitimate objections, how does "we have a soul" still turn out to be better?

Paraphrasing: We explain our possession of property P by membership in a group that otherwise is (circularly)defined as possessing property S which is the group that possesses property P.

Well, it's not quite that bad, although I admit it comes close. The problem is not that the "soul" is circularly-defined, but that it's ill-defined to the point of being nearly useless. We have, for example, no tests by which we can detect the presence or absence of a soul. We do, however, have a general-if-vague idea of what a soul is, and a laundry list of properties we attribute to it. Whatever else we may not know about souls, we know that they are immaterial, eternal, timeless --- and both rational and conscious.

So the "soul" argument works out to be "we are conscious because we alone possess a supernatural object that is by definition conscious." That leaves a lot unexplained -- why, for example, souls are conscious -- but it also at least explains why we are conscious and coffee cups, for example, are not.
 
I hate to say it, but you, drkitten, role model for many JREF members, talk favorably of god and souls and that might make you a woo in the eyes of judgemental skeptics.

[shrug] Let fools believe what they like.

Believe me, I'm not one to point the finger at a theist, you still have time to make your point more clear.

If you choose to hold your ground I stick by my opinion creation will be explained by math someday and will continue the discusion if you wish. Just remember you are now the woo guy believing in souls.

You're welcome to continue to hold your opinion, and in fact, I'm of much the same opinion myself. But I recognize that it is an opinion, and simply being of a different opinion on this matter doesn't render a person irrational or unreasonable. Rembember this statement of yours? "At this point in time there is no phenomenon that a reasonable person might think is caused by the supernatural."

Whether or not consciousness is caused by the supernatural is a matter of opinion on which "reasonable" people might differ. There is no evidence one can cite to render the opinion that the soul exists and causes consciousness irrational. I can cheerfully dismiss claims of telekinesis because I believe in the law of conservation of momentum and the underlying Noether symmetry. But no such cheerful dismissal exists for a soul. Even if I don't believe in "souls," I can't tell you which law of physics they would violate or what experiments disprove them.
 
[shrug] Let fools believe what they like.
There is no evidence one can cite to render the opinion that the soul exists and causes consciousness irrational.
What is your definition of "soul" please?
 
What is your definition of "soul" please?

The Oxford English Dictionary suggests : "The principle of thought and action in man, commonly regarded as an entity distinct from the body; the spiritual part of man in contrast to the purely physical."

Good enough for me.
 
Yes. That's probably the best naturalistic/materialistic argument out there. But it's still unsatisfactory, since it doesn't actually explain.
Well, I think it does explain. The unsatisifactory nature is that the demonstration and proof are beyond our technological means. At the moment I view this in similar categories as interstellar travel or a future collider that could simulate the first trillionth of a second of the big bang: They are things that I can conceive of as extrapolations of our current technology, but which are so far removed from current technology that there's a good chance they may reveal failures in our understanding along the way. That's a bit different from, say, building a rocket with ten times the capacity of the Saturn V. Don't expect any major failures in understand along the way to doing that. It's also, more interestingly, in a different category from FTL travel which I can't conceive of as an extension of current technology or understanding.
We do, however, have a general-if-vague idea of what a soul is, and a laundry list of properties we attribute to it. Whatever else we may not know about souls, we know that they are immaterial, eternal, timeless --- and both rational and conscious.
Immaterial, eternal, timeless? How do we know that?

I would think we know the soul must be material. It's alleged properties include the ability to cause things to happen in the physical world. To my way of thinking "material" means anything posessing mass, energy, charge or momentum and being able to exchange those things with other material particles. If everything in the chain from soul to actions isn't material then souls can't cause manifestations in the real world.
So the "soul" argument works out to be "we are conscious because we alone possess a supernatural object that is by definition conscious."
Why not leave out the soul and just say "we posess consciousness"? I still haven't heard an articulation of what adding "soul" in to the chain of definitions adds to anything.

And what do you mean "we alone"?
That leaves a lot unexplained -- why, for example, souls are conscious -- but it also at least explains why we are conscious and coffee cups, for example, are not.
Well, if it leaves all that unexplained then I still fail to see what it offers beyond "we posess consciousness and coffee cups to do not".
 
Well, I think it does explain. The unsatisifactory nature is that the demonstration and proof are beyond our technological means.

No. It's not a technological question, but a philosophical one.

At the moment I view this in similar categories as interstellar travel or a future collider that could simulate the first trillionth of a second of the big bang: They are things that I can conceive of as extrapolations of our current technology, but which are so far removed from current technology that there's a good chance they may reveal failures in our understanding along the way.

I think that's entirely the wrong end of the stick. We actually have a fair idea, for example, of how to build such a large collider, and we have a reasonable guess as to what we could find when we built it. We can't build it, because we don't have the budget, and we don't have the materials. But we also know what kind of budget we would need in order to build it, and we know what kind of materials we would need. Any decent engineer could cost the project out, even if it ends up with an astronomical number of zeros.

It's also, more interestingly, in a different category from FTL travel which I can't conceive of as an extension of current technology or understanding.

That's a better analogy for "consciousness." There's no current technology or understanding that can possibly be extended to produce it; we simply don't know enough about it.

Immaterial, eternal, timeless? How do we know that?

Part of the traditional definitions, going back to Aristotle and before.

Broadly, in the same way we know that unicorns have one horn, are attracted to virgins, and can cure poison with their horns. Because that's how the concept is defined, whether unicorns actually exist or not. If I dug some wierd two-horned beast out of the depths of the Black Forest and claimed it was a unicorn, you wouldn't accept my claim, even if it were a new beast you'd never seen before.

I would think we know the soul must be material. It's alleged properties include the ability to cause things to happen in the physical world.

But the same list of alleged properties (see? You do know how we know the properties of the soul!) also include that it's immaterial. That's not an argument that the soul is material, it's a reductio ad absurdam to show that the soul doesn't exist. On the other hand, since your attempted proof assumes materialism to be true (only material things can influence the material world), a non-materialist (such as a Cartesian dualist) will not find the reductio convincing.

And what do you mean "we alone"?

Traditionally,only humans possess souls; animals do not. The question of whether animals are "conscious" is at best controversial, even among animal behavior specialists. The question of whether animals possess qualia is entirely open.

ETA: As to the advantage,... well it's the difference between saying "this drink tastes sweet" and "this drink tastes sweet because it has sugar in it." We've identify the causitive element involved. We still don't know why sugar tastes sweet (that's the qualia problem again), but we know what the element is that produces the quale.

This sort of explanation has been around a long time; objects were hot because they had phlogiston in them, for example. The concept of "heat" was reified (incorrectly) to a substance called "phlogiston." Upon further investigation, "phlogiston" turned out not to exist. But the same process led to the discovery of MSG; a Japanese chemist reasoned that there was a specific substance that tasted "delicious" and spent several years analyzing "delicious" food until he found MSG, which of course is a general purpose flavor enhancer. For reasons that we still don't fully understand.

Sugar causes sweetness. Phlogiston causes heat. MSG causes deliciousness. Soul causes consciousness. In each case, we've got a hypothesis about an underlying and unifying cause.
 
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No. It's not a technological question, but a philosophical one.
No. It's not a philosophical question, but a technological one.
I think that's entirely the wrong end of the stick. We actually have a fair idea, for example, of how to build such a large collider, and we have a reasonable guess as to what we could find when we built it. We can't build it, because we don't have the budget, and we don't have the materials. But we also know what kind of budget we would need in order to build it, and we know what kind of materials we would need. Any decent engineer could cost the project out, even if it ends up with an astronomical number of zeros.
Doesn't all that apply to a computer with connections similar to the brain also?
That's a better analogy for "consciousness." There's no current technology or understanding that can possibly be extended to produce it; we simply don't know enough about it.
What aspect of our consciousness isn't simply a bit of information?
But the same list of alleged properties (see? You do know how we know the properties of the soul!) also include that it's immaterial. That's not an argument that the soul is material, it's a reductio ad absurdam to show that the soul doesn't exist
Or merely that the one attribute is wrong, but since I don't really see any benefit to rescuing the concept of a "soul" that's not really worth pursuing.
On the other hand, since your attempted proof assumes materialism to be true (only material things can influence the material world), a non-materialist (such as a Cartesian dualist) will not find the reductio convincing.
I think that dualism is what the reduction to absurdity refutes.
ETA: As to the advantage,... well it's the difference between saying "this drink tastes sweet" and "this drink tastes sweet because it has sugar in it." We've identify the causitive element involved.
No. In this case we have not identified "the" causitive element of sweetness, we've identified a causitive element. Other "elements" can also cause sweetness.

We've also identified causitive elements of consciousness: brains built of neurons. We've identified this to a similar degree of certainty that sugar causes sweetness. And since neurons are switching elements we can guess that other switching elements might be built into brains capable of consciousness. And, meager as they may be, this line of thought has lead to far more success at building intelligent entities than an assumption of a soul has.
 
No. It's not a philosophical question, but a technological one.

Doesn't all that apply to a computer with connections similar to the brain also?

No, it doesn't. Because we have no evidence that suggests that "a computer with connections similar to the brain" would be conscious.

What aspect of our consciousness isn't simply a bit of information?

We don't know. Literally. Which is why an engineer can't simply cost out a conscious system.


I think that dualism is what the reduction to absurdity refutes.

Yes. And a dualist would think that the reduction to absurdity refutes your assumption of the truth of materialism. And so the circle of life continues.

We've also identified causitive elements of consciousness: brains built of neurons.

We have not. We have no evidence whatsoever to suggest that, and any such evidence would almost certainly earn the discoverer a Nobel prize. We have a metaphor for the brain -- "the brain is a computer" -- which is simply the latest in a long line of nonexplanatory brain metaphors. In the 1800s, philosophers described brains as either clockwork or as waterworks; I'm sure you wouldn't want to assert today that if we simply used enough lead piping, we could build an intelligent system.
 
No, it doesn't. Because we have no evidence that suggests that "a computer with connections similar to the brain" would be conscious.

Yes, we do. The fact that we've emulated intelligence is evidence. It may not be proof but it is evidence.

We have not. We have no evidence whatsoever to suggest that, and any such evidence would almost certainly earn the discoverer a Nobel prize.
I'm totally baffled by this. The fact that when you damage your brain you also damage your consciousness is evidence. Again, it may not be proof, but it certainly is evidence. That, and thousand of other similar points of evidence, don't earn Nobel's for the obvious reason that they were mundane knowledge before Nobel ever lived.
We have a metaphor for the brain -- "the brain is a computer" -- which is simply the latest in a long line of nonexplanatory brain metaphors. In the 1800s, philosophers described brains as either clockwork or as waterworks; I'm sure you wouldn't want to assert today that if we simply used enough lead piping, we could build an intelligent system.
No, but you're citing the metaphor that made no progress. I'd be perfectly comfortable acknowledging that the clockwork metaphor made some progress in emulating one aspect of intelligience (time perception).
 
The Oxford English Dictionary suggests : "The principle of thought and action in man, commonly regarded as an entity distinct from the body; the spiritual part of man in contrast to the purely physical."

Good enough for me.

Thank you.

There is a quote you may find interesting "But it's still unsatisfactory, since it doesn't actually explain."

Which bring two questions immediately to mind - 1. Do you hold yourself to the same standards as you expect from others and 2. What is the rational evidence one can cite to render the opinion that the soul exists and causes consciousness?
 
I might side with dr K. on this one...

Is it the limitation of our ability to "know" which keeps consciousness in the realm of philosophy, rather than technology?

Here's the thinking machine angle:

Given that one can imagine that even other 'conscious' humans are not real, does one have to accept that a machine which merely 'acts conscious' is really 'conscious?'

That is, it may be possible to build a machine which demands its rights, long before the question of consciousness is settled philosophically... we may even engage them on the question. The technology is not a resolution...

...

uhh... is this okay?
 
Is it the limitation of our ability to "know" which keeps consciousness in the realm of philosophy, rather than technology?
I would contend that all avenues of understanding could be kept in the realm of philosophy forever if one is so inclined to arrange their definitions in order to make it so.
 
I would contend that all avenues of understanding could be kept in the realm of philosophy forever if one is so inclined to arrange their definitions in order to make it so.

In a philosophical sense, I agree with this, actually.

On the other hand, technological people (myself included) just tend to 'get on with business.' My counter to the consciousness as philosophy thing boils down to the following sci-fi scenario:

Consciousness is a deeply philosophical question. However, when the robots have sued for their rights, are attacking us and feeding our remains to the post-apocalyptic mutants... will it matter? :D
 
Yes, we do. The fact that we've emulated intelligence is evidence. It may not be proof but it is evidence.

But, um, intelligence != consciousness. See Searle's Chinese Room, for example.



I'm totally baffled by this. The fact that when you damage your brain you also damage your consciousness is evidence.

When you damage your TV antenna, you damage the picture. Therefore, the antenna is the picture?

No, but you're citing the metaphor that made no progress. I'd be perfectly comfortable acknowledging that the clockwork metaphor made some progress in emulating one aspect of intelligience (time perception).

That's (ahem) not how the metaphor was used.
 
There is a quote you may find interesting "But it's still unsatisfactory, since it doesn't actually explain."

Yup. I believe I more or less stated that myself. It does, however, provide a deeper explanation than simply "consciousness exists."

Telling me that the drink is sweet explains nothing. Telling me that the drink is sweet because it contains sugar at least provides an explanation for the aspect in terms of its constituents. I still don't know why sugar tastes sweet, but I do know why the drink is.

Which bring two questions immediately to mind - 1. Do you hold yourself to the same standards as you expect from others and 2. What is the rational evidence one can cite to render the opinion that the soul exists and causes consciousness?

Yes, and "traditional philosophical analysis." I recommend starting with Aristotle and working your way forward.
 
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I'll refresh myself on the Chinese room argument later but unless something major has happened recently it's certainly not an ironclad argument.
 
I might side with dr K. on this one...

Is it the limitation of our ability to "know" which keeps consciousness in the realm of philosophy, rather than technology?

If by "know" you mean "observe" or "test empirically," then I would agree that that's a major part of it. As I said in my opening statement on this subject, the only reason I know that consciousness exists is from personal experience, which is by definition unshared.

But that applies to all qualia, of course.

Here's the thinking machine angle:

Given that one can imagine that even other 'conscious' humans are not real, does one have to accept that a machine which merely 'acts conscious' is really 'conscious?'

That's Alan Turing's argument and the basis of the Turing Test. Acceptance of the Turing Test, even as proof of "intelligence," not of "consciousness," is far from universal; I mentioned Searle and his Chinese Room in an earlier post. Penrose is another noted (if semi-bonkers, IMNSHO) scholar who believes that consciousness does not derive from computational equivalence; he thinks it's a specific QM effect that computers do not have. Lucas is another one who would disagree that "acting conscious" is not the same as being "conscious."

So "does one have to accept"? Not at all; I've named three counterexamples. I, of course, could name several proponents of the Turing Test as counter-counter-examples. The point is that there is no "clearly right" answer such that any disagreement is a priori unreasonable or irrational.

Given a better definition of "consciousness," perhaps we could prepare some sort of objective test equipment and wave it over a cat or a Pentium to see if it's "conscious."
 

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