Could Communism in Russia have been successful with Christianity instead of Atheism?

[PixyMisa]

And the World Ice Theory and other strangeness.

 

[JoeEllison]

Not even remotely true.

Unfettered capitalism certainly has its problems, because remote externalities are hard to factor into the calcations of local optima. However, it still produces wealth, whereas communism consumes it.

Communism reduces the total wealth in the system, and spreads the poverty equally among the populace except for the party favoured. Unfettered capitalism increases the total wealth of the system, but generates huge income disparities. It also, however, brings about a moderately affluent middle class, and allows for class mobility.

We've learned that it's best to moderate capitalism, to smooth out the boom/bust cycles a little and provide a social safety net. But to equate the effects of communism and those of capitalism is pure baloney.

Wrong. Sorry. Common mistake, of course, since we DO moderate capitalism. You were doing OK until you mentioned the middle class, something that exists ONLY because of restrictions on capitalism.

ETA: Sorry about the hijack... feel free to go back to bashing communism.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

There is no reason why the Chruch and Stae could not merge, allowing one feilty to both. See the ofical NAZI religion, or the Christianity of Fascist type regemes.

Only so long as you can convince everyone that the State's word is the word of God. The problem with keeping this going with Christianity is that religion's deep tradition of personal revelation. As soon as enough nutters (or even one sufficiently influential nutter) hear God say something in a dream contrary to official State doctrine, the system weakens, and eventually collapses. History gives no reason to think such dreams rare enough to sustain the situation for very long at all.

 

[Damien Evans]

If there were a Hell, Mother Theresa would no doubt be burning in its deepest depths right now. Apparently you form your opinion about things and people by watching television and listening to the propaganda from the Catholic Church. She was an evil woman who imposed untold suffering on the people she "helped" by refusing to spend money to cure them or spare them more suffering. She supported the Duvalier family in Haiti. If she is an example of a good Christian, other Christians should be ashamed.

You got any proof for any of that?

 

[Herzblut]

Well, originally it was this- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reich_Church

Wikipedia says:
Although initially supported by the regime, the Nazis eventually lost interest in the experiment after it failed to supplant or absorb traditional Christianity. After 1937, relations between the Reich Church and the Nazi government began to sour.

I can't find anything therein that qualifies this experiment to be named "official Nazi religion". What I find instead is that traditional Christianity resisted.

Later there was that strange mixture of neo-paganism, Christianity and Hitler worship.

The only "official" element herein is Hitler worship. Nazism regarded religions under the exclusive aspect of being beneficial or detrimental to the Nazi leadership. The Nazi ideology per se is non-religious, at least atheist. Except to Hitler himself, of course. Hitler worship served as pseudo-religious offer to the masses. The usual homely Herrgottswinkel (there is no english word for that I think; it is a corner of a room devoted to worship, provided with a crucifix, Jesus picture, Madonna figure or so) was replaced by an image of the Führer, decorated with fresh flowers. The Nazis even made up prayers replacing Jesus/God by and equating them to Hitler.

Führer, mein Führer, von Gott mir gegeben,
beschütz und erhalte noch lange mein Leben!
Du hast Deutschland errettet aus tiefster Not,
Dir verdank ich mein täglich Brot,
Führer, mein Führer, mein Glaube, mein Licht,
Führer mein Führer, verlasse mich nicht!

(Prayer from an orphanage)

THAT was the official Nazi religion.

Herzblut

 

[Freethinker]

You got any proof for any of that?

Since I never met her or went to her clinics, I could have no proof. I do have testimony from reliable sources. Read Hitchens for starters, The Missionary Position. Here's a quote from it from a volunteer regarding her operation: "My initial impression was of all the photographs and footage I've ever seen of Belsen [Nazi death camp] and places like that, because all the patients had shaved heads. No chairs anywhere, there were just these stretcher beds. They're like First World War stretcher beds. There's no garden, no yard even. No nothing. And I thought what is this? This is two rooms with fifty to sixty men in one, fifty to sixty women in another. They're dying. They're not being given a great deal of medical care. They're not being given painkillers really beyond aspirin...for the sort of pain that goes with terminal cancer..."

Dr. Robin Fox, editor of The Lancet visited Mother Theresa's clinic in Calcutta and found no strong pain medication was stocked. Apparently she (Mother Teresa) believed that the suffering of the poor brought god's blessings on humanity as evidenced by this quote: "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot . . . I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."

She also, despite vast sums of money in the bank, forced her nurses to reuse needles over and over again until they became so blunt the wouldn't penetrate the skin. Apparently she believed that increasing the suffering of her victims and clinging stubbornly to her vow of poverty was a good thing.

Evil bitch.

 

[PixyMisa]

Wrong. Sorry. Common mistake, of course, since we DO moderate capitalism. You were doing OK until you mentioned the middle class, something that exists ONLY because of restrictions on capitalism.

Again, not even remotely true. The middle class grows even under unfettered capitalism. I'll clarify one thing - the middle class arose much earlier than did capitalism. However, the point that the middle class grows under all forms of capitalism is established historical fact.

Now, one particular aspect of historical capitalism that is worth examining is extreme vertical integration - where the car maker owns the steel mills, and the houses the workers live in, and the stores they buy their food and clothing at. Such a system is clearly internally communist - it's a tightly centrally-planned economy. Haldane was actually wrong on this subject, but 1928 was too soon to know; such a system even on the scale of the early Ford company is actually less efficient than breaking the company up and having the independent units compete for business with one another. The reason companies don't often do this any more is that the ones that try it tend to lose out. (Where we do find large-scale vertical integration, we also find heavy government involvement.)

But that's capitalism for you.

 

[JoeEllison]

Again, not even remotely true. The middle class grows even under unfettered capitalism. I'll clarify one thing - the middle class arose much earlier than did capitalism. However, the point that the middle class grows under all forms of capitalism is established historical fact.

Now, one particular aspect of historical capitalism that is worth examining is extreme vertical integration - where the car maker owns the steel mills, and the houses the workers live in, and the stores they buy their food and clothing at. Such a system is clearly internally communist - it's a tightly centrally-planned economy. Haldane was actually wrong on this subject, but 1928 was too soon to know; such a system even on the scale of the early Ford company is actually less efficient than breaking the company up and having the independent units compete for business with one another. The reason companies don't often do this any more is that the ones that try it tend to lose out. (Where we do find large-scale vertical integration, we also find heavy government involvement.)

But that's capitalism for you.

I'll be honest with you... although I don't seem able to explain it, I think we're really talking about the same thing.

 

[DOC]

No. Communism requires absolute fealty to the state. There can be no competition. Christianity requires absolute fealty to God. There can be no competition. Choose ye this day whom ye will serve, DOC.

According to Wiki one of the goals of Communism is to achieve a "stateless" society. Wiki also has a article on Christian Communism.

From Wiki article on Communism

Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism


From Wiki article on Christian Communism

Communism, as such, implies not only the abolition of social classes and private property, but the state as well. Christian communists, like all communists, do not wish to abolish the state in the near future; rather, they seek to abate it gradually over a long period of time. Nevertheless, the fact that they do support the eventual dissolution of government has drawn criticism from other Christians who attribute an intrinsic, hierarchical government to the kingdom of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

According to Wiki one of the goals of Communism is to achieve a "stateless" society. Wiki also has a article on Christian Communism.

It takes a particularly naive idealism to believe communism could be carried out without a central authority.

But, if you like, replace "State" with "Community". The point stands. God, or the community. You cannot serve two masters.

 

[DOC]

It takes a particularly naive idealism to believe communism could be carried out without a central authority.

But, if you like, replace "State" with "Community". The point stands. God, or the community. You cannot serve two masters.

Isn't it generally accepted that the Christian God wants you to serve the community.

 

[PixyMisa]

I'll be honest with you... although I don't seem able to explain it, I think we're really talking about the same thing.

Okay then. I'm not saying that unfettered capitalism is ideal, or even good, just that the overall results of it are qualitatively and quantitatively distinct from those of communism.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Isn't it generally accepted that the Christian God wants you to serve the community.

Yes. Are you about to equivocate on serve? Because that will be fun to watch.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Well, Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II might be considered true Christians. I have a feeling the world would be a pretty nice place to live if everyone were like them.

One could ask would the world be better off if everyone was like Mother Theresa and John Paul II or would the world be better off if everyone was an atheist?

"Mother" Theresa was by her own words a mean-spirited, lying, deceitful, hypocrite. A perfect Christian? Her soon to be elevation to sainthood is based on a lie.

 

[Cleon]

Hey DOC,

Why just Christianity?

There have been faith-based communal societies in all sorts of religions. There are Jewish communes in Israel and the Occupied Territories called Kibbutzim. Lots of Hindu sects, including the Hare Krishna cult, run communal farms. You can even find some Wiccan communes if you hunt around for them. There are even Muslim communes.

So...What singles Christianity out for consideration, DOC?

 

[Complexity]

DOC is a Death Eater wannabe.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I have to feel a big part of the collapse of the Soviet Union had to do with corruption, and also a lack of enthusiasm, spirit, and direction amongst its people. If the official state doctrine of the former Soviet Union had been Christianity instead of Atheism is it possible it could have been successful?

I heard a rumor that a guy known as Martin Luther nailed 99 feces onto a church door as a protest against corruption in the Christian church, Doc.

You ever hear of that?

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

Maybe not for the state, but for life in general. And that's where the Atheistic doctrine comes in.

I mean why does Atheism have to be tied into Communism. Couldn't Christianity be just as easily tied into Communism as Atheism.

Take a look at a concept called "Liberation Theology" and the Catholic Church's relationship with it.

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

You mean like the so-called "free market capitalism" with zero government control that the idiot right-wingers claim will solve all of our problems? THAT sort of government system?

Since when is an anarchibertarian a right winger?

Both of them were celibate. If we were all to be like them, we would last only one generation.

Global Warming, solved.

DR

 

[joobz]

Global Warming, solved.
DR

Maybe it was shakerism that killed off the dinosaurs?