Could Communism in Russia have been successful with Christianity instead of Atheism?

[JoeEllison]

My post might be divided into two general areas:
1. Government systems that involve highly centralized control of the economy are doomed to abject failure which will often include the imposition of vast human suffering as the country self destructs from within.

You mean like the so-called "free market capitalism" with zero government control that the idiot right-wingers claim will solve all of our problems? THAT sort of government system?

 

[kellyb]

No. Since they would have believed they had supernatural (god) protection from nukes, they would have made some wrong move during the Cold War and gone down a LOT harder and faster.

 

[PixyMisa]

You mean like the so-called "free market capitalism" with zero government control that the idiot right-wingers claim will solve all of our problems? THAT sort of government system?

Did he say that?

No, he didn't say that.

Davefoc's right. The idea of centrally-planned economy is that you replace many local optima with one global optimum. The problem is, the scaling of the information processing is hugely superlinear.

Even if all of the information you receive about requirements and abilities is accurate; even if everyone at every step of the information-gathering, decision-making, and implementation process is honest; it just isn't possible to calculate the optimum strategy.

Communism always fails when implemented on a large scale.

Haldane didn't explain it in terms of complexity, since that wasn't an obvious model in 1928, but he was exactly right that it's a scaling problem.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

You mean like the so-called "free market capitalism" with zero government control that the idiot right-wingers claim will solve all of our problems? THAT sort of government system?

So let's see if I get this straight:

Atheists claim that you do not need a god to be "good" and disagree with the religionists notion that without "god" to keep humanity's so-called baser instincts in check, society will deteriorate to anarchy and ruin.

OK, I'm cool with you so far...

However, how is the fundy's argument about needing God morality any less silly than the Leftist's argument about economic freedom and "idiot right-wingers?" If we can trust human beings with their own moral choices with out a deity, why can't we trust "free market capitalists" to make their own economic choices without constant government robbery and meddling?

What's the difference between "Big Government" and "Big God." (Besides the fact that we can prove that the former exists?) I don't see it.

Personally, I don't see why Marxists (or even democratic socialists) have embraced atheism or secularism, seeing that socialism and religion share the same disrespect for human liberty be it personal or economic. Only I would imagine that DOC's Christianized Communism would have been much much worse than anything Lenin, Stalin, et al. would have dreamed up. I got a feeling that Lenin would have hung the blasphemers right next to the kulaks.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

I agree with the OP. If Christianity had been the prevalent religion in Russia, they would never had let the Communists become the best at taking advantage of the poor.

Mmmmm... on the off chance that you weren't being ironic (It's sometimes hard to tell on the net.) Christianity is, and was even back then, the prevalent religion in Russia.

 

[Cheesejoff]

Mmmmm... on the off chance that you weren't being ironic (It's sometimes hard to tell on the net.) Christianity is, and was even back then, the prevalent religion in Russia.

Did you read the section on communism in the article?

"The main target of the anti-religious campaign in the 1920s and 1930s was the Russian Orthodox Church, which had the largest number of faithful. Nearly all of its clergy, and many of its believers, were shot or sent to labor camps. Theological schools were closed, and church publications were prohibited.

In the period between 1927 and 1940, the number of Orthodox Churches in the Russian Republic fell from 29,584 to less than 500. Between 1917 and 1935, 130,000 Orthodox priests were arrested. Of these, 95,000 were put to death, executed by firing squad.[citation needed]"

 

[andyandy]

You mean like the so-called "free market capitalism" with zero government control that the idiot right-wingers claim will solve all of our problems? THAT sort of government system?

yeah, capitalism sucks....but compared to communism it's positively utopian

Communal systems work on a very small scale with sufficient intra-group personal bonds for group cohesion - but scaling up to country level requires strong authoritarian if not totalitarian state control. If totalitarian state control is your thing, then communism is for you

 

[andyandy]

Of these, 95,000 were put to death, executed by firing squad.[citation needed]"

We must strive for equality - in death all men are equal - thus we must kill all men.

 

[Herzblut]

most interpretations of communist ideology would preclude the existence of a state religion by defininition. In communist countries the state has a tendency to become the religion - both Mao and Stalin were ruthless in their promotion of their own cult of personality.

A socialist totalitarian theocracy would seem somewhat oxymoronic

Hello andyandy,

there are a few interesting aspects to it. First, I am not certain if the "dialectic materialism" (Marx, Engels) classifies as a religious belief system.

However, in real existing communism the state tends to declare itself as one-and-only authority which naturally leads to suppression of church. It fatally degenerates into totalitarism with a godlike leader the people are made to believe in in a rather religious way. This notion is in ful contrast to e.g. christian belief. No man shall put himself at God's place. Stalin had no qualms at all to commit ruthless mass massacre amongst the orthodox church. Of course, with the beginning of WWII Stalin had to re-establish the church exploiting its high powers of implanting a belief, the patriotic one.

Finally, I wonder if there has ever been a real existing atheist community/nation that did not become totalitarian in the end.

Herzblut

 

[DOC]

Can you provide us with an example of this "true" Christianity?

Well, Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II might be considered true Christians. I have a feeling the world would be a pretty nice place to live if everyone were like them.

One could ask would the world be better off if everyone was like Mother Theresa and John Paul II or would the world be better off if everyone was an atheist?

 

[JoeEllison]

Well, Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II might be considered true Christians. I have a feeling the world would be a pretty nice place to live if everyone were like them.

One could ask would the world be better off if everyone was like Mother Theresa and John Paul II or would the world be better off if everyone was an atheist?

They were both, from my understanding, really lousy people, who cause plenty of harm and not much good in the world. The world would be full of even more misery if there were more people like them in charge.

 

[andyandy]

there are a few interesting aspects to it. First, I am not certain if the "dialectic materialism" (Marx, Engels) classifies as a religious belief system. However, in real existing communism the state tends to declare itself as one-and-only authority which naturally leads to suppression of church. It fatally degenerates into totalitarism with a godlike leader the people are made to believe in in a rather religious way. This notion is in ful contrast to e.g. christian belief. No man shall put himself at God's place. Stalin had no qualms at all to commit ruthless mass massacre amongst the orthodox church. Of course, with the beginning of WWII Stalin had to re-establish the church exploiting its high powers of implanting a belief, the patriotic one.

yes, I was being a bit loose with the word "religion" - though it is fascinating to see the development of Mao and Stalin's cults of personality, an elevation of the man above masses, which along with doctrinal absolutism from prescribed texts (eg. Mao's red book) does mimic religion in most aspects apart from the obvious and explicit lack of God. Having said that, Mao could have some claim to a deference of almost demi-god status in China, he is still an omnipresence - and still commands thousands of pilgrimages daily to see his embalmed body....maybe one day he will become a god

 

[JoeEllison]

So let's see if I get this straight:

Atheists claim that you do not need a god to be "good" and disagree with the religionists notion that without "god" to keep humanity's so-called baser instincts in check, society will deteriorate to anarchy and ruin.

OK, I'm cool with you so far...

However, how is the fundy's argument about needing God morality any less silly than the Leftist's argument about economic freedom and "idiot right-wingers?" If we can trust human beings with their own moral choices with out a deity, why can't we trust "free market capitalists" to make their own economic choices without constant government robbery and meddling?

What's the difference between "Big Government" and "Big God." (Besides the fact that we can prove that the former exists?) I don't see it.

Personally, I don't see why Marxists (or even democratic socialists) have embraced atheism or secularism, seeing that socialism and religion share the same disrespect for human liberty be it personal or economic. Only I would imagine that DOC's Christianized Communism would have been much much worse than anything Lenin, Stalin, et al. would have dreamed up. I got a feeling that Lenin would have hung the blasphemers right next to the kulaks.

Thanks for falling into my trap... and sorry for the bruised knees you got while falling!

The point I was making is that people who think a pure system will fix their problems, whether that system is communism or capitalism, wind up with the exact same thing: less freedom, more centralized control, and a negative outcome for all but the elite.

Under a purely communist system, it is the party elite who control everything. In a purely capitalistic system, things run in ALMOST THE EXACT SAME WAY, except it it the financial elite who control all the resources and the government. 100% government regulation centralizes power in the hands of the people running the government. "Free market" deregulation puts that same power in the hands of the people with enough money to buy the government. Either way, you wind up with one or another form of totalitarianism, not freedom.

Two sides of a coin, both sure failures... and for the evidence, just look at America today. Heck, Fox "News" is a dead-ringer for the sort of communist propaganda those same folks were mocking 30 years ago.

 

[brodski]

No. Communism requires absolute fealty to the state. There can be no competition. Christianity requires absolute fealty to God. There can be no competition. Choose ye this day whom ye will serve, DOC.

There is no reason why the Chruch and Stae could not merge, allowing one feilty to both. See the ofical NAZI religion, or the Christianity of Fascist type regemes.

 

[Freethinker]

Well, Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II might be considered true Christians. I have a feeling the world would be a pretty nice place to live if everyone were like them.

One could ask would the world be better off if everyone was like Mother Theresa and John Paul II or would the world be better off if everyone was an atheist?

If there were a Hell, Mother Theresa would no doubt be burning in its deepest depths right now. Apparently you form your opinion about things and people by watching television and listening to the propaganda from the Catholic Church. She was an evil woman who imposed untold suffering on the people she "helped" by refusing to spend money to cure them or spare them more suffering. She supported the Duvalier family in Haiti. If she is an example of a good Christian, other Christians should be ashamed.

 

[joobz]

Well, Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II might be considered true Christians. I have a feeling the world would be a pretty nice place to live if everyone were like them.

One could ask would the world be better off if everyone was like Mother Theresa and John Paul II or would the world be better off if everyone was an atheist?

Both of them were celibate. If we were all to be like them, we would last only one generation.

 

[Herzblut]

.. it is fascinating to see the development of Mao and Stalin's cults of personality, an elevation of the man above masses, which along with doctrinal absolutism from prescribed texts (eg. Mao's red book) does mimic religion in most aspects apart from the obvious and explicit lack of God.

I agree, it's a quasi-religion. Let me describe my notion of Cuba in the respect, based on experience and the cuban girls people I know.

The cuban regime also preaches the usual leadership-cult in favor of Fidel. The obvious method is to apply to the national pride, cuban identity and associate that with the person of Fidel himself to guarantee obedience to the regime. Apart from that though, Fidel has modelled an even much stronger glorification scheme. Namely to Che Guevara which, thankfully, is dead and can't object any more. If any, then El Che serves as the one big cuban godfather. Cleverly constructed, since the successor of Fidel - which happens to be his brother coincidentially - just needs to refer to the "spirit of Che" or whatever to receive quasi-devine absolution.

Talking religion, Cuba abolished religion, esp. christianity, after the revolution in 1959. The strict anti-religious notion was never practised that strictly though as it was written on paper. In 1992, Cuba even changed constitutionally from an anti-religious to a secular nation. Means for instance that non-atheists can make political careers, which was impossible before. I find that quite interesting.

Catholicism rules (40%) in Cuba, at least on paper. Again, reality shows up to be a little different. The Santería cult is rampant in Cuba, well mixed up and joined together with catholic elements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santería

A funny brewage. Santerian orishas ("Gods") are identified with catholic santos (San Lazaro...). Santería has deep african roots and is a natural religion as such (with all its typical elements like magic, witchcraft, superstition, scrying...), but kinda glued in a catholic framework.

The local santero around the corner always welcomes you to help you out in your live's problems. And tell your future by throwing some frikkin mussels or so. I couldn't convince any Cuban I know in Germany to not consult those guys for their problems while vacationing in Cuba. At least no woman.

Herzblut

 

[Herzblut]

There is no reason why the Chruch and Stae could not merge, allowing one feilty to both. See the ofical NAZI religion, or the Christianity of Fascist type regemes.

What is that, the "official nazi religion"?

Herzblut

 

[PixyMisa]

The point I was making is that people who think a pure system will fix their problems, whether that system is communism or capitalism, wind up with the exact same thing: less freedom, more centralized control, and a negative outcome for all but the elite.

Not even remotely true.

Unfettered capitalism certainly has its problems, because remote externalities are hard to factor into the calcations of local optima. However, it still produces wealth, whereas communism consumes it.

Communism reduces the total wealth in the system, and spreads the poverty equally among the populace except for the party favoured. Unfettered capitalism increases the total wealth of the system, but generates huge income disparities. It also, however, brings about a moderately affluent middle class, and allows for class mobility.

We've learned that it's best to moderate capitalism, to smooth out the boom/bust cycles a little and provide a social safety net. But to equate the effects of communism and those of capitalism is pure baloney.

 

[brodski]

What is that, the "official nazi religion"?

Herzblut

Well, originally it was this- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reich_Church

Later there was that strange mixture of neo-paganism, Christianity and Hitler worship.