Could Communism in Russia have been successful with Christianity instead of Atheism?

[Freethinker]

Couldn't Christianity be just as easily tied into Communism as Atheism.

I'd think Christianity could be used for the primary purpose of religion: To brainwash the unthinking sheep into following whatever instructions the church leaders gave them. That's been the primary function of religion through the ages. Leaders use it to control people, plus once someone swallows the stories of the bible, they'll believe almost anything you tell them because the actual thinking part of their brain has been turned off.

 

[IMST]

Maybe not for the state, but for life in general. And that's where the Atheistic doctrine comes in.

Many (most?) atheists would tell you they value life more, since it's all they get and xians value life less cause they get a second, eternal shot at it.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Can you provide us with an example of this "true" Christianity?

They're recognizable by their gear Christian garb.

 

[Foster Zygote]

...also a suppressive/oppressive attitude towards sex that prevented priests with sexual diviance predilections from seeking help.

And may even drive those with sexually deviant predilections into the priesthood in the first place. That's not to say that all priests are sexual deviants, of course. And I wonder how many in the priesthood are simply non-predatory, non-pedophilic homosexuals who were drawn to the celibacy of the clergy out of self loathing.

 

[davefoc]

I have to feel a big part of the collapse of the Soviet Union had to do with corruption, and also a lack of enthusiasm, spirit, and direction amongst its people. If the official state doctrine of the former Soviet Union had been Christianity instead of Atheism is it possible it could have been successful?

No.

I agree.

Many people, even to this day, assume that some sort of centrally run economy could be in the best interest of the general population.

There is not a scintilla of empirical evidence that would support this notion and anybody with even a passing understanding of the law of supply and demand and the nature of humans would not expect that an economy dominated by central control would ever be in the interest of the general population.

The OP does go to something that interests me. People who advocate left leaning economic policies tend to be less religious than people who advocate right leaning economic policies. Without the empirical evidence I would have expected the opposite. Christianity in particular seems to advocate for a shared wealth approach to life which in the extreme might be communism. But implicit in a lot of left wing thought is the idea that a powerful central government is a good thing based on the notion that a non-corrupt group of people will eventually find their way to power to act in the interest of the general population. So perhaps this provides some sort of underpinning for the extreme left to be OK with government suppressing religion.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

And may even drive those with sexually deviant predilections into the priesthood in the first place. That's not to say that all priests are sexual deviants, of course. And I wonder how many in the priesthood are simply non-predatory, non-pedophilic homosexuals who were drawn to the celibacy of the clergy out of self loathing.

Boy, do I have an anecdote for you.

Through a friend I was invited to a party of someone who runs a gay porn enterprise several years ago. The person running it was a former Jesuit Priest, and got his masters in theology while in serving in the Catholic church.

He told me he entered for the very reasons you list, but, eventually began a sexual relationship with a man while still in the church. That man convinced him to stop living a lie. Now, he's Seattle's famous Dr. Dick, purveyor of porn.

Link:
[nsfw] The page only contains a suggestive banner ad on top and cites his Jesuit school, but the site, of course, is the home of the porn production company.
[/nsfw]

 

[andyandy]

most interpretations of communist ideology would preclude the existence of a state religion by defininition. In communist countries the state has a tendency to become the religion - both Mao and Stalin were ruthless in their promotion of their own cult of personality.

A socialist totalitarian theocracy would seem somewhat oxymoronic

 

[Jon.]

I have to disagree with many posters here. There are plenty of passages in the New Testament in particular that are completely compatible with something like communism. There's no reason why some bastardized form of Christianity and some bastardized form of communism couldn't be brought together to create a pretty effective totalitarian regime.

Of course, it wouldn't be True Christianity(tm) or True Communism(tm) but what states have ever had either of those anyway?

 

[skeptifem]

No.

thread over

 

[Miss Anthrope]

Well, in that case!

thread over

It is?

YES!

 

[JoeEllison]

I agree.

Many people, even to this day, assume that some sort of centrally run economy could be in the best interest of the general population.

There is not a scintilla of empirical evidence that would support this notion and anybody with even a passing understanding of the law of supply and demand and the nature of humans would not expect that an economy dominated by central control would ever be in the interest of the general population.

The OP does go to something that interests me. People who advocate left leaning economic policies tend to be less religious than people who advocate right leaning economic policies. Without the empirical evidence I would have expected the opposite. Christianity in particular seems to advocate for a shared wealth approach to life which in the extreme might be communism. But implicit in a lot of left wing thought is the idea that a powerful central government is a good thing based on the notion that a non-corrupt group of people will eventually find their way to power to act in the interest of the general population. So perhaps this provides some sort of underpinning for the extreme left to be OK with government suppressing religion.

Nearly everything you posted seems between mildly incorrect and wildly inaccurate.
Screw it, I can't save the world without air conditioning.

 

[slingblade]

I'm going to share what I was taught by my Native American Anthro professor.

Many Amerind tribes practiced "reciprocity." This socio-economic system is much like communism: the community shares with one another, does for one another, and provides for one another, as each member would care for him- or herself. This is often thought of as "The Golden Rule," but it's at once more complicated and simpler than that.

For instance, among the La- Da- Nakota (three branches of basically the same peoples) was a concept known as mitakuye oyasin (mee-TAH-ku-yay oh-YAH-sin) or "all my relations." In this concept, everything is related to you, and you to it. Not just part of your family, but part of you.

When you share with another, there is no sense of obligation or repayment. You help your neighbor eat, because you are feeding yourself, and so on. This is a spiritual kind of connection, but it is important to note it is NOT RELIGIOUS in any sense. The pre-European La- Da- Nakota had no religion in the sense we tend to think of it. The Great Spirit you hear about so much wasn't a single god, but rather the mysterious whole of the spirits of everything. Everything is wakan, mystery. You are just as much the Great Spirit as a rock, or a bit of dung, or a baby, or a tree.

My professor taught us that Soviet Communism was modeled on the Amerind system, but left that spiritual part out. You can't instantly create a reciprocal system; it develops slowly. You can't just say, "Okay, now we're all going to share, and like it!"

However, if you have been born into a social system that tells you from day-one that everything is related to you, is a part of you, and must be cared for as you care for yourself, then reciprocity becomes the natural embodiment of that philosophy.

Christianity is too individualistic to function in that model.

Thus, Communism would have been no more successful with Christianity as a factor than without it.

 

[jimlintott]

I would have thought that the huge Muslim population in the Soviet Union might have made Christian doctrine in the government a little awkward.

 

[davefoc]

Nearly everything you posted seems between mildly incorrect and wildly inaccurate.
Screw it, I can't save the world without air conditioning.

My post might be divided into two general areas:
1. Government systems that involve highly centralized control of the economy are doomed to abject failure which will often include the imposition of vast human suffering as the country self destructs from within.

2. There is a tendency for left leaning people to be less religious than people who lean to the right on economic issues.

If your disagreement was with my first point then I disagree strongly. I believe my first claim is roughly as certain to be true as the law of gravity. Lots of people fantasize about how wonderful some centralized control system will be when the people they back achieve power. But the believers soon become disbelievers. Not in the sense that they question their underlying ideas about the benefits of centrally controlled governments but in the sense that they become convinced that the group of people that achieve power are flawed and the next time a socialist revolution happens things will be better because the right people will get into power. Of course the right people never do achieve power and the advocates for communism never realize that is because there are no "right" people who can centrally manage a vastly complex economy in a way that benefits the general population.

If your disagreement was with my second point then I agree somewhat. I oversimplified a complex situation in the interest of making a brief post to describe something that I have thought about a bit to see what other people might have to say about it.

 

[skeptifem]

what is with the communism obsession that fundies have??? I have never understood this.

 

[slingblade]

what is with the communism obsession that fundies have??? I have never understood this.

[frothing]

"You don't want a government based on religion/Christianity, but the world had a government based on atheism, and look how well that worked out!"

[/frothing]

 

[skeptifem]

[frothing]

"You don't want a government based on religion/Christianity, but the world had a government based on atheism, and look how well that worked out!"

[/frothing]

i sort of understand it when all that was going on, but now? wtf? a lot of the major political problems are stemming from the opposite problem.

 

[slingblade]

Now it just serves for them as proof that the model failed, and that, spectacularly.

For those who grasp constantly at straws, this is at least one they can grip.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

True Christianity, yes. Quasi-Christianity probably not.

True Scotsman anyone?

 

[strathmeyer]

I agree with the OP. If Christianity had been the prevalent religion in Russia, they would never had let the Communists become the best at taking advantage of the poor.