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Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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kitakaze wrote:
BTW Sweaty, is Shane (sasquatchfound) a skeptic of bigfoot existence or was he just not sold on the MDF?


I don't know what Shane thinks the likelihood...or "degree of probability"...of Bigfoot's existence is.

My guess is that he's more skeptical of the MD video being legit than he is of Bigfoot, in general.
 
..... and the owner of the forum Darkwing supports that power trip she's on.

Darkwing added leaders and trailers to the footage from LMS, declared it ' research material ', and posted it at Youtube ..

The ' MemorialDay' footage I linked to above, is an example..


No need to pay the copyright owners by purchasing the DVD ...
 
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Darkwing added leaders and trailers to the footage from LMS, declared it ' research material ', and posted it at Youtube ..

Darkwing also hacked the hell out of the video clip showing Heironimus walking in a cowboy hat. It's so speeded-up and short that nobody can see that he walks just like Patty. I think he's trying to hide that fact.
 
I wonder if everyone over there knows LAL is reading their private messages?

What? :eek:

Are you saying that a moderator on the Mid-America Bigfoot Research Center Forum can read private messages sent between registered users? Is this true for all bulletin board forums?
 
kitakaze wrote:
Sweaty is not a fan of Bill Appleton's enhancements that seems to clearly show a mask being removed and carried.

I reckon it's not really "clear" if one has to modify it with "seems"....I reckon. ;)

Actually, it seems to be a transparent mask :jaw-dropp ....as evidenced in this still....by the lack of anything visible at the end of the subject's arm....

NoMaskhere1.jpg


....nothing at the end of the arm, but the green green grass of home. (of Bigfoots, that is.)
 
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WTF big day in tiny town? I go run a couple errands and there's two more pages of this stuff by the time I get back.


carcharodon, to answer your questions;



"Why? He was a reknowned tracker and hunter wasn't he?"

Again laughable. Mack was a legend and a great hunting/fishing guide, but a great tracker/stalker, no. I believe he did have three record BC bear to his credit at one time, thou. Common knowledge says that one does not have to be a great tracker to be a great guide. Mack mostly worked the tributaries and flats, quite often doing his spotting from boat and/or air, he also had a network of locals spotting for him. Hunting flats and tribs is very basic, bears are habitual creatures. Again, Scott-Donelan, Brown and Hardin are in a league of their own, what these men can see is nothing short of phenomenal.

Macks true claim to fame was his storytelling, he was funnier than s#!t. But to be quite honest (IMO) very few would know of him today if American Sportsman had not done a few shows with him. Then Dr. Thommason (also a colorful fella) met Mack and instantly knew that not only could he get the Nuxalk history/legends from a very popular Elder but there was also this whole guide hook (celebrity/rich and famous name adventures) that could be used. There is a fair bit of embellishment in the books that these two had published. Unfortunately for Mack he never saw his stories in print.

Don't get me wrong, I have a great amount of respect for Mr. Mack, if the guy liked you he would give you the shirt off his back. It was common knowledge that on occasion he would let his guide fees slide simply telling the hunter to get to Bella Coola and he would take care of the rest.


"Presumably, by that analogy you'd disregard the likes of Jim Corbett too coz he was 'in the olden days when everything was black and white' and not as real as it is in colour today and shooting tigers back then was like shooting fish in a barrel."

Jim Corbett was a stalking/tactical tracker, Clayton Mack was not well known for this and came up empty many times because of it. He did on rare occasion track bear inland but again he almost always worked the tribs and flats. Mack tracked many blood trails but when following a blood trail one uses a completely different set of tactics. You simply cannot compare the two because they hunted using two distinctly different methods.


"Roger Patterson got something....and it's unlike any man in a bigfoot suit that I've ever seen....but still it's 'nothing' to the scoftics."

Roger Patterson certainly did get something on film, the question is what? Since there is no baseline for comparison one certainly cannot verify with any degree of certainty what it is. Simply because one is of the opinion that the film subject is indeed of a living breathing sasquatch does not make it so. No there is no comparable suit to date (IMO) but this does not create a problem for me. Why would there be? It could be as simple as no one has put as much effort into making a suit as Patterson, why would they? This was Pattersons claim to fame something that he possibly worked on for years, we know he researched bigfoot for many, many years. I would wager to guess that Patterson as well as most others living in the valleys and mountains around Yakima at that time were in fact quite handy with leather and awl. There is also the fact that anyone can go to Yakima, Wa., talk to the old timers and most will state that they believe it was a hoax.


In reality this film is of no value to anyone except the pro bigfoot community. This community is extremely small, the majority have at one time or another posted on these internet forums. Most of these people are simply regular folk like you and I that have opinions/speculations about this myth (very few of these people actually put serious dirt time in). At present date like it or not that is all we have, a myth.

For every Meldrum there are hundreds if not thousands in his discipline that do not see what he does, he (as well as Krantz) has tried very hard for years to convince his peers, to no avail. Green, Coleman, they're authors, they research and write about this subject for profit. Chilcutt, well IMO he was blown out of the water by Crowley. Nolls Skookum cast, Dr. Anton put a bullet in that, hell Noll probably still thinks there are tule elk in Wa. State.

Bigfoot had a good run (and I'm not embarrassed to admit that I ran right with it for the majority of my adult life) but science is catching up and placing some good kill shots on the poor guy/girl. I still entertain the possibility and I will continue to hold a couple threads of hope, but come on there just isn't much more than half-ass evidence out there.

The internet IMO has also contributed greatly to bigfoots slow demise, for me anyway. The fact that we are all here discussing this subject simply amazes me. To have both pro and con opinions on every frick-in detail no matter how minute is a great feat. I just wish that something credible would come along so I could dive back in.

One other tidbit, being that there are suppose to be so few sasquatch the number of sightings reported is astronomical compared to many/most other endangered/rare species. What's up with that?

I lied I have one more, no that's a reporters mistake, I only have time for one more. As far as MDF goes I do not believe it's ever been mentioned that there is in essence a campground at the head of Lake Chopaka, it's not maintained but it has been there for years and can hold several tents, homemade picnic table . . . there is also much evidence of folks bivouacking between the MDF subject area and Bowers Lake as well as everywhere from the BLM campground to the head of the lake. Now I'm not saying that the bigfoot was going to one of these camping spots I'm simply stating a reason for it to be on the upper trail. Just a few details that seemed to have been misplaced I guess.

BTW Patterson film-speed has not been established there is only speculation, this still remains a critical question. Crap I lied again, no, I must have been mistaken. :jaw-dropp


Carry-on


m
 
I'm sorry, but you lost me here. What exactly are you trying to say to me? I don't remember dodging your questions. It's more likely that I didn't see them. (Typical for me). Would you kindly cut and paste what you what you want me to read. I'm exhausted and my eyes are stinging. That was a fairly long post, and I'm trying to find what you're saying, but I'm starting to get cross-eyed. Would you please simplify this for me and briefly summarize your point? It has been a long day, and this is wearing me out. I'd really appreciate it if you would.

Luminous
Here are some of them:
-Lets suppose you are correct and P&G lacked the skills needed to build such a suit. Is there any reason to suppose they could not have bought or rented and eventually modified a costume?

-Have you seen any of those gorilla suits in action?

-What would those suits look like if they were filmed under conditions similar to PGF and the resulting images suffered te same image enhancement processes?

-Have you considered the options regarding Pattys possibly moving fingers that do not involve a real bigfoot or complex mechanisms?

-How can you be sure that your interpretation of the features seen in PGF's subject is better than mine (or anyone eles)?

I must also add that you more than once questioned me about age of FX costumes. I posted links to where you could find the information by yourself. An you say you have not seen evidence of their age?

Maintaining a dialogue with someone who wants information to be presented in a digested form and does not seem to be willing to check detailed information by him/herself is a bit frustrating.
 
charcarodon said:
That's Correa Neto all over. ...lies and ad homs snipped...

An that post, charcarodon all over.

Have no illusions, lies and offenses will not obfuscate your complete incapacity to present reliable evidence to back your claims regarding myself and bigfoot.

Repeat them as much as you want, you will only manage to embarass yourself more than you already have with new displays of utter immaturity ad incompetence. Its actually quite fun to watch.
 
Oooh yeah...

That MDF still is very enlightening...

Heck, judging from it, that thing could be a bigfoot or a dalek as well.

Reliable evidence, any available?
 
...LAL read PMs of mine... Darkwing led me to believe the post had been removed period... was available on the "Members" side of the forum for them to read...

This is cult behavior. Bigfoot is supposed to be an animal, not a cultish belief system.
 
Here is an excerpt from an article written about the rumours in Hollywood that John Chambers made the "suit" for the PG film....

http://www.strangemag.com/chambers17.html

I was working at Rick Baker's on Harry and the Hendersons and we were talking about Bigfoot and talking about that footage and Rick Baker told us that John Chambers had done that suit and that it was just a crappy walkaround suit he built.

The hollywood fx guys laugh at the so-called "suit".

But yet, strangely, other skeptics have a slightly ;) different view of the "suit"....

mangler wrote:
No there is no comparable suit to date (IMO) but this does not create a problem for me. Why would there be? It could be as simple as no one has put as much effort into making a suit as Patterson...This was Patterson's claim to fame something that he possibly worked on for years...

So.....a skeptic can always quote the hollywood fx guys, who say it's just a cheap, laughable, crappy suit. :D

Or....

If a skeptic is honest enough to admit the "suit" is not that laughable...(mangler and Teresa both have)....then it can be explained away as... "Roger possibly spent years working on his creation". :rolleyes:

WELCOME to Skeptic King...


burger-king1.jpg


Where you can always......


quick_burgur1.gif
 
I wonder what his thoughts are on the presence at the scene of footer Fred Bradshaw.

Fred Bradshaw was not at the scene. His own family says that's not his voice.
The voice Larry Lund says is Bradshaw's is that of the outfitter, Tom Lines.
 
If he dismounted with rifle in hand, he must have had it out of the scabbard before he dismounted.

Or are you sayng Roger yelled, "Cover me" and he didn't?

The point was, Gimlin was mounted while Roger was on the ground. The creature could have looked less large to Gimlin because of that.
Lu, do you understand that you're strengthening the point I'm making? I asked you to account for the discrepancy, why not try that? Am I to take it that the wikipedia entry is correct and Meldrum is not? I have no idea why you're mention Roger's 'cover me' part. You are presenting one account as truth. Why? Based on what? Can you or can you not explain these discrepancies? They're very important.
Bump. I was really hoping you'd address this post, Lu. It seems like you're quoting wikipedia against Meldrum which is, you know, kind of a new one.
 
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Okay, I've read the pertinent part of the interview, however, it wasn't months before that the tracks were found, according to Gimlin it was "just prior" (the Tuesday before Labor Day) to Patterson and Gimlin's arrival that three sets of tracks were seen and reported by telephone to Patterson's wife. Patterson and Gimlin were in the Mt. St. Helen's area of Washington at that time.

The tracks were found at the very end of August on the 29th. That would make it just over 7 weeks prior to the footage being taken. That's very close on 'a couple of months' before the footage was taken so I was correct in what I stated. What's a week here or there???

As you said, Green tried to contact Patterson but he was out of reach. He came back home sometime in September, and was then told about the tracks.

However, Gimlin says "By the time we got down there, these tracks supposedly were 3 different sizes and were just globs in the mud as far as I was concerned.
Apart from the tracks on Onion Mountain and Blue Creek Mountain, which would have been 'above the film site' there were also other tracks seen in August on a sandbar on Bluff Creek itself, less than a mile from the later film site. These could well have been the " just globs of mud" that Gimlin refered to.

Bob Gimlin doesn't call them tracks. From your very own quote he said "just globs of mud as far as I was concerned'. In his opinion there in that quote, they weren't tracks.


The film was taken on October 20th, but I don't know how long Patterson and Gimlin had been camping in Bluff Creek when the film was taken.
A week in that particular camp at B/C although they left for northern California on or around the 1st October.
 
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What's "whaa?" about it, Parcher????

John Green asked Gimlin if he saw tracks prior to the footage. Gimlin said no and that all he saw were as far as he was concerned just "globs of mud". He didn't think they were tracks. Gimlin didn't say he thought they were tracks.

So where is the contradiction that you and Teresa Hall see???

Wow. Gimlin saw Patty and must have seen the film, and yet he still says the arms hang below the knees. Gimlin sounds like Heironimus, but here only weeks after the encounter, right Lu?
LOL, the HUGE difference, clever cloggs, is that if Bob Gimlin is telling the truth (which he is) then his encounter was a heart stopping exciting heat of the moment adrenalin rush. In such circumstances where everything is happening bang bang bang you are bound to think things were a little different than they were. I know. I have experienced it myself.

If Bob Heironimus is telling the truth (which of course he isn't) then there was no bang bang bang, no adrenalin rush no excitement at seeing something extraordinary, nothing heart stopping. Heironimus would in fact have been in sober mood and would have had plenty of time to take proper note of evreything, including the suit. His description of the suit just doesn't jive with what we see in the footage. Bob H is clearly lying.
 
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That cannot be correct, imo. Roger has to be referring to the forest behind Patty, imo. Patty's quickest way to cover was to do a 180 and hit the woods behind her.

Nope. The trees were the trees in the log pile. The whole scenario took place in the middle of the Bluff Creek dried waterway. The only thing left after the summer was a stream. It was the central area and stream where the log pile was and where Patty was first encountered. It was in the middle of a clear area and not backed up against the forest.

I can't interpret "back up against the trees" any other way, and that's also what I see in the PGF.
Read Chris Murphy's book and look at the overhead shot taken by Dahinden. What you see in the background in the P/G footage is a forest that is in actual fact further away than it looks on the film.

Patty was at no point 'backed up against the forest'. She was however, right next to a bunch of downed trees at the log pile, and this is what is being refered to. The log pile/downed trees were in the middle of the dried Bluff Creek river/creek system right next to the stream that remained.

So Gimlin comes back to camp that morning and Roger is not there. Roger doesn't come back until 10am...
Gimlin made no mention of that being an unusual or strange circumstance. It's likely then, that that also occured on a number of other occasions.

then Roger wants to go back to a place they've already been,
They'd 'already been' over a number of the same places in the week they had been there.

and that's where they just happen across Patty?
What's all this 'just happen across Patty'? They were in northern California for nearly 3 weeks and in the Bluff Creek camp for a week.

It's likely there were other days where Patterson did similar things and they didn't come across Patty. When you have been out in the wilds with another person for weeks/months you aren't joined at the hip and you don't spend every minute of every day together.

Also, they had been to the film site already on this trip, yet Gimlin saw no tracks previously?
Why would he? If Patty hadn't ventured out to the stream at the film site prior to October 20th then why would Gimlin have seen tracks there before?

I thought there were tracks of a family in the area? I thought they were worried about a male?
These were seen by Green, Dahinden and Abbot in August higher up on the mountains above Bluff Creek, where Patterson and Gimlin were not searching at that point. Other tracks were seen by Green etc on a sandbar in August not far from the film site but according to Gimlin, he didn't think what he saw were tracks, just "globs of mud".
 
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No mention in that wiki article that Titmus could not find where Patty entered the film site. Patty's tracks just begin at the river where Roger started filming her. There are no tracks of her arriving.

BTW, the fact that Titmus could not spot Patty's arrival tracks at the river is one of the biggest reasons I think the film is a hoax.
Bob Titmus' own words:

" I also spent little time trying to backtrack Bigfoot from where his tracks appeared on the sandbar since it was soon obvious that he did not come up the creek but most probably came down the mountain, up the hard road a ways and then crossed the creek onto the sandbar.""

The Apes Among Us, page 121.

Now, if you'll note Titmus' map of the whole area (page 88 in Krantz' book) you'll see that the 'hard road' runs parallel and close to the creek itself (the stream where Patty was). All Patty had to do was follow this hard road (leaving no tracks) after coming down the mountain then cross the creek at the point where the downfall trees were. According to Titmus' map, the 'road' actually led to where these downfall trees were. It looks like just a few yards from the road to the creek and then onto the sandbar where Patty was. I see no reason why there should be tracks all over the place leading to the spot where P and G first saw Patty if she came this most likely way. The downfall trees were very close to the hard road and the stream was in between.....so just where were the 'arrival' tracks supposed to have been left??? There simply isn't any place they could have been left.

*Note. Crossing the stream would also account for Patty's wet feet and the fact that the dirt and top soil stuck to the undersides of her wet feet as she walked off, like sand clings to our wet bare feet when we are on the beach.

See? Everything adds up when you REALLY look at it. In fact, the more I look into it the more everything fits together. It's a good thing we have these independant witnesses to corroborate the whole story isn't it?
 
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Agreed, LTC. What blows my mind was that Titmus was able to create a map at-the-scene of where Roger walked when he filmed Patty. He was able to do this at least 8 days after the event and there were rains. When he comes upon the scene, he would see Patterson & Gimlin tracks going every which way including numerous tracks that would be alongside Patty's tracks. He would see horse tracks all over the place going every which way. He would see Laverty (and possibly his coworkers) tracks mixed in. Out of all that, he is somehow able to decide which set of tracks were made when Roger was holding the camera. Incredible!

You are forgetting also that when John Green and Jim McClarin visited the film site the following June (some 8 months or so later) there were still apparantely some depressions left where some tracks had been cast....and you're quibbling over 9 or 10 days???
 
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