I have applied for the challenge

robinson said:
I think you are missing the point. If one disagrees with Randi, on an issue, procedure, medical cure, or any device that he says is "paranormal by definition", based on his own page, there is no way to apply to win the Million Dollars.
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Your contention is that if Randi says 'X is paranormal', but you happen to consider X is not paranormal, you cannot apply for the challenge? Even though it's Randi's challenge and he gets to decide, for the purposes of the challenge, whether X is considered paranormal?

If that's your contention, please explain Randi's challenges in Swift to purveyors of things like 'magic' wine agers? IIUC they claim some weird science explains the device's operation.

If that's not your contention, please clarify what it is.
 
nathan said:
Your contention is that if Randi says 'X is paranormal', but you happen to consider X is not paranormal, you cannot apply for the challenge?
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Pretty much. The wording of the challenge rules does not allow for testing or demonstrations concerning devices, procedures, substances or events.

Yes, the Sniffex device was challenged, directly to the CEO of the company. Because it is a dowsing device, it is obvious the challenge was that dowsing doesn't work.

Even so, could ANYONE apply for that challenge? Or just the CEO of the company?

(For the record, I don't believe the Sniffex or any other dowsing device can allow dowsing)

Same question for the wine magnet, or any other "paranormal" device. Can anyone (with a Media presence) apply to demonstrate that said device does what is claimed?

There is both observation and questions in my commentary here. Looking at the application, can you figure out how to fill it out, concerning a device or substance, (as in, remedy or other "paranormal substance")?

Same for an event or a procedure. How do you fill out the application? It can't be changed, (that point is made clear), so how can you even apply? If you believe Randi is wrong, how do you get a chance to prove it?
 
You can certainly invite Randi to review your device. If he then takes exception to your claims you have grounds to initiate a challenge. It might in some cases require marketing or promoting your product in such a way that Randi feels a challenge would be a public service.
 
Hasn't it been stated time and time again that the personnal feelings of the applicant regarding weither or not his ability/power/device is paranormal or not is completely irrelevant and that the JREF's word on this is the final word?
 
robinson said:
Pretty much. The wording of the challenge rules does not allow for testing or demonstrations concerning devices, procedures, substances or events.
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er, I don't see what in:
1. This is the primary and most important of these rules: Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers and/or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result.
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... prevents one writing something like:
'I, Joe Applicant, will make young wine age artificially using an ACME-corp Magnetic Wine Ager. <details of double blind testing>'

robinson said:
Even so, could ANYONE apply for that challenge? Or just the CEO of the company?
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Prior to the rule change, it could be anybody (example Lisa Simpson and the CD thingy (and the guy before her, who dropped out)). Now, I guess it would have to be somebody associated with ACME Corp -- I don't see why it would need to be the CEO, any random salesman might do. Anyway, it's for the JREF to accept or reject such an application.

robinson said:
Same for an event or a procedure. How do you fill out the application? It can't be changed, (that point is made clear), so how can you even apply? If you believe Randi is wrong, how do you get a chance to prove it?
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By applying to say you can do what Randi believes is impossible without trickery. I don't see the difficulty.
 
Sorry I'm coming in so late here. I don't think I actually see the issue.

Anyone can apply. So asking if someone can apply for Sniffex or whatever it is makes no sense. However, the person must have a media presence.

A claim has the title of "paranormal" at the moment the application is accepted. You don't have to think it's paranormal. I don't have to think it's paranormal. If the application is accepted and moves to protocol negotiations, it is considered paranormal for the length of the process.

There is a woman at the beginning of the application process that I have been communicating with through e-mail who says she can make people urinate themselves with the power of her mind. This is indeed a phenomenon that centers around an event.

Perpetual motion machines are also permitted into the Challenge. It doesn't matter if they will eventually be scientific or not.

I hope this helps. Let me know if I've got the issue wrong. I got four pages in and couldn't take anymore ;)
 
I wave a gentle, lavender colored hello to the people of the group and I say, hello to your group!!!

Love,

Jason Lavender
 
robinson said:
Same question for the wine magnet, or any other "paranormal" device. Can anyone (with a Media presence) apply to demonstrate that said device does what is claimed?
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Just to back up what Remie said: "Yes".

Check out this message (and check out the whole thread), which details LostAngeles' run at the Challenge. She tested out the efficacy of the GSIC audio device but isn't involved with the company in any way. So it doesn't matter who you are, as long as you can do whatever you claim (with whatever). And, of course, as long as you have media presence.

Also, remember PeaceCrusader's Challenge -- although it was his spirit medium who was doing all of the hocus pocus, he was allowed to apply for the Challenge on the basis that he'd be doing the predictions with her as his assistance (of course, she backed out of it).
 
RemieV said:
A claim has the title of "paranormal" at the moment the application is accepted. You don't have to think it's paranormal. I don't have to think it's paranormal. If the application is accepted and moves to protocol negotiations, it is considered paranormal for the length of the process.
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Remie, correct me if I'm wrong, but the bottom line here is that James Randi has to think the claim is paranormal, yes? And from what I understand, the idea is that if the McGuffin (whatever it is) is actually paranormal -- that is, its operation runs counter to known principles of physics -- it's actually paranormal, no matter how much the person presenting it claims it's not (or uses pseudoscientific explanations ["It's Quantum!"]). Thusly, the folks who make the WineMagnet, Sniffex, etc., all claim that their devices work according to perfectly scientific principles, but they actually do not (and saying that they do doesn't make it so).

Peter Morris, on the other hand, has a genuinely non-paranormal claim. He wants to use geological surveys to find places where water will not be found. His sole purpose is to prove that James Randi is wrong when he says "find me a dry spot", although it's perfectly clear that Mr. Randi is talking about dowsing, to dowsers, and challenging them to use dowsing.
 
Whatever Jackalgirl said.
In paranormal we basically mean:
"paranormal

An event or perception is said to be paranormal if it involves forces or agencies that are beyond scientific explanation."​
From http://skepdic.com/paranormal.html

It has to be known science and that which is accepted by the scientific community. If someone says some claim is science but cannot prove it scientificaly then that's his/her problem but the claim should be legit for the $1M challenge.

Regards,
Yair
 
If Randi says "That's paranormal," for the sake of the challenge, it is. The "paranormal condition" is solely the JREF's to make. After all, it's our money. We can offer it to whomever we'd like.

In the end, all that matters is the protocol. If both parties agree to the protocol, and the claimant succeeds in performing the protocol, the claimant wins. Those are the only facts that matter at that point.

In the grand scheme of things, could someone discover a new "law of physics" or whatever, and win the challenge through non-paranormal means? Yes, it could happen. There doesn't seem to be much danger of that though, based on what we've seen.

Jackalgirl said:
Remie, correct me if I'm wrong, but the bottom line here is that James Randi has to think the claim is paranormal, yes? And from what I understand, the idea is that if the McGuffin (whatever it is) is actually paranormal -- that is, its operation runs counter to known principles of physics -- it's actually paranormal, no matter how much the person presenting it claims it's not (or uses pseudoscientific explanations ["It's Quantum!"]). Thusly, the folks who make the WineMagnet, Sniffex, etc., all claim that their devices work according to perfectly scientific principles, but they actually do not (and saying that they do doesn't make it so).

Peter Morris, on the other hand, has a genuinely non-paranormal claim. He wants to use geological surveys to find places where water will not be found. His sole purpose is to prove that James Randi is wrong when he says "find me a dry spot", although it's perfectly clear that Mr. Randi is talking about dowsing, to dowsers, and challenging them to use dowsing.
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Jeff Wagg said:
If Randi says "That's paranormal," for the sake of the challenge, it is. The "paranormal condition" is solely the JREF's to make. After all, it's our money. We can offer it to whomever we'd like.
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Is there a list somewhere of what is considered paranormal, as in, acceptable for th Challenge?
 
robinson said:
Is there a list somewhere of what is considered paranormal, as in, acceptable for th Challenge?
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A partial list is readily available through the FAQ.

An exhaustive list is obviously impossible to compile. Look at a list of the methods that have been used historically for divination (let's start with AEROMANCY, ALECTRYOMANCY, ALEUROMANCY, ALOMANCY, ALPHITOMANCY, ANTHROPOMANCY, APANTOMANCY, ARITHMANCY, ASTRAGLOMANCY ,
ASTROLOGY, AUSTROMANCY, and AXIOMANCY... and that's just the A's.), realize how any process could be used for divination, and you'll see that an exhaustive list is impossible.
 
robinson said:
Is there a list somewhere of what is considered paranormal, as in, acceptable for th Challenge?
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There is a list, as said, in the FAQ. But really, claims are approved or rejected on a case-by-case basis, and even if it is on the list, acceptance is not guaranteed.

For example, if someone claimed mediumistic capabilities but offered no verifiable information from the spirits, it would be an untestable claim even though mediums are invited to participate in the Challenge.

Some claims are rejected automatically, like cloudbusting, and claims that would potentially be harmful or fatal in a test.
 
Challenge@randi.org comes to me, not Jeff, and I'm looking ;)

I've penned a rough draft of the Challenge FAQ based off e-mailed questions and the new rules. The new FAQ (which is, of course, up for revision by JREF staff) does not contain a list, as the claims are reviewed case-by-case.
 
There is a woman at the beginning of the application process that I have been communicating with through e-mail who says she can make people urinate themselves with the power of her mind.

"The power of her mind"? The power of simply reading about her ability caused me to wet myself...
 
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