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AIDS (hah)

So why do you bring it up in the first place?
I didn't, it was kelly who wouldn't shut up about it.
Complete lack of proof? Methinks thou art confused.
I can imagine that you think that. But here's a task for you: Find a research study that conclusively proves that HIV irreversibly damages the human immune system in a significant number of cases. Not one that assumes that HIV causes AIDS, but a study that puts this proposition to a test.
ETA: Oh, and while we're on the subject... If HIV tests are performed adequately (surely you are not suggesting that they are always flawed), and they find essentially all AIDS patients to be infected with HIV, what would that tell you?
You aren't listening. You can't have AIDS without HIV. If you don't have HIV, you don't have AIDS, per definition. Even when your arms are rotting off. Which is why I think the whole thing is BS in the first place.
 
lilly.JPG
 
You aren't listening. You can't have AIDS without HIV. If you don't have HIV, you don't have AIDS, per definition. Even when your arms are rotting off. Which is why I think the whole thing is BS in the first place.

No- you aren't listening. Read my post above. The definition of AIDS is a playabout with word semantics and has nothing to do with whether the virus causes immune deficiency. You really have no reason to think the whole thing is BS. Doctors can modify and develop the definition of acute coronary syndrome by using troponin levels rather than EKGs - that doesn't mean angina is a myth.

Now, do you care to provide the reference for your claim that Gallo now thinks poppers cause Kaposi?
 
The term AIDS is rather redundant - I prefer "HIV infection", and then to go on and precisely qualify what stage or complications have resulted when describing it in more detail in a particular patient.

I actually think the term is redundant, clinically. HIV positive is how I always hear it described.

[qimg]http://h1.ripway.com/Apathia/lilly.JPG[/qimg]

I hadn't caught on that you were formerly Hyparxis.

Lovely bunch.
 
You aren't listening. You can't have AIDS without HIV. If you don't have HIV, you don't have AIDS, per definition. Even when your arms are rotting off. Which is why I think the whole thing is BS in the first place.

"You can't have Down's without an extra 21st chromosome. If you don't have an extra 21st chromosome, you don't have Down's, per definition. Even when you're deformed and severely mentally impared. Which is why it's all BS."

"You can't have bacterial meningitis without a CSF bacterial cluture. Without a CSF culture that shows bacteria, you don't have bacterial meningitis, per definition. Even when you're almost dead. Which is why it's all BS."

Etc, etc, etc.
 
It's hard to believe the nonsense being thrown around this thread without a shred of credible supporting evidence. The links to the actual scientific research and debunking of the nonsense is never addressed, just repeating of the inaccurate and discredited information as if no one really presented anything refuting the garbage.

Robinson, if HIV isn't a disease transmitted by basic heterosexual intercourse, how are you claiming it is spread and where's your supporting evidence? In addition, just because you have not seen how HIV is diagnosed in African countries does not mean the diagnoses are inaccurate. Your imagination is inaccurate. It may come as a shock to you but they actually draw blood and run legitimate lab tests in African countries. :rolleyes:

And where did you get this erroneous information:
HIV didn't spread like it was predicted. HIV didn't spread into the heterosexual population through sex, like other STDs. HIV didn't get spread through needle sticks and medical accidents, as predicted.
HIV didn't kill the massive populations in Africa, as reported, or predicted.
I have met and spoken with Dr Patricia Wetzel who was infected with HIV from a needlestick and Dr. Janine Jagger who started Epinet and the first safer needle campaign following the incident. And you have the gall to say, "HIV didn't get spread through needle sticks and medical accidents, as predicted"?

So who "predicted" what that you do not believe occurred? It takes a large inoculate to cause infection. Is that what makes you think something predicted didn't occur?

I've also cared for patients who were infected through heterosexual intercourse and through blood transfusions. So before I debunk your bizarre position, how about explaining a bit more clearly just what you believe and why you believe it?

And, Dabljuh, for your information, not that evidence means much to you, but HIV can be traced by the number of mutations between strains. That means when traced you can tell with an extremely high degree of certainty that a specific source of HIV caused a specific new infection in another person. The 6 patients of the Florida dentist who were infected with HIV (and there is strong circumstantial evidence he injected them with contaminated blood) all had clear evidence they were infected directly by his strain of HIV. The same is true for a number of lab and health care workers who were exposed to HIV infected blood, had lab tests showing they were not already infected, and seroconverted typically 10-12 weeks later. Their seroconversions are documented as well as some of them have confirmation they have the strain of their source patients.

Molecular Investigation of HIV Transmission
HIV has an unprecedentedly high mutation rate compared with other pathogens. Human immunodeficiency virus variation can be "tracked" by comparing either viral DNA sequences or viral protein sequences encoded by the DNA; in the case of DNA, the sequenced nucleotide strings typically consist of 300 or more characters (letters) that offer ample information for tracking purposes. We can, accordingly, determine a range of genetic relatedness for intrapatient variants (variants within a single person) and a decidedly different range of degree of relatedness for interpatient variants where there is no evidence of epidemiologic linkage.

Populations of viruses from the same infected person have DNA sequences that are typically 95% to 100% similar by an appropriate measure of sequence relatedness for the viral envelope gene [3, 9]. In contrast, the extent of dissimilarity of viruses from epidemiologically unlinked persons is greater, depending on the length of time a particular subtype of HIV has been circulating in a locale—the "viral diversification" factor—and on the array of highly distinct viral subtypes circulating in a locale—the "viral trafficking" factor. In Florida, for example, where there is currently only a single HIV-1 subtype, most HIV-1 sequences from ostensibly unlinked persons are 83% to 93% similar [3, 10]. In regions of the world where highly divergent viral subtypes are co-circulating, such as Russia, interpatient viral similarities can be as low as 70% or less [8].

The stupidity of accepting these decades old denier hypotheses is highlighted by the fact that genetic research has established not just the fact HIV causes AIDS, but also how it does it, how it is transmitted, some factors which facilitate and hinder transmission, and the same research has resulted in an arsenal of anti-retroviral drugs which are now keeping people with HIV alive for decades.

This is the same stupidity I see in the evolution deniers. They and the HIV deniers are completely ignorant of the entire field of genetic science and the revelations we have gained from genetic research in just the last 2 decades. No one is guessing HIV causes AIDS from epidemiology. We know it does from looking at the genetic and other molecular evidence.
 
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I think all we skeptics will find this article of particualr interest.

J Med Ethics 2004;30:53-60; © 2004 BMJ Publishing Group Ltd & Institute of Medical Ethics GLOBAL RESEARCH ETHICS; Professional responsibilities of biomedical scientists in public discourse; U Schüklenk
Correspondence to:
Dr U Schüklenk
Head, Division of Bioethics, Faculty of Health Sciences, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, Wits 2050, South Africa; udo@udo-schuklenk.org

Abstract

This article describes how a small but vocal group of biomedical scientists propagates the views that either HIV is not the cause of AIDS, or that it does not exist at all. When these views were rejected by mainstream science, this group took its views and arguments into the public domain, actively campaigning via newspapers, radio, and television to make its views known to the lay public. I describe some of the harmful consequences of the group’s activities, and ask two distinct ethical questions: what moral obligations do scientists who hold such minority views have with regard to a scientifically untrained lay audience, and what moral obligations do mainstream newspapers and government politicians have when it comes to such views. The latter question will be asked because the "dissidents" succeeded for a number of years in convincing the South African government of the soundness of their views. The consequences of their stance affected millions of HIV infected South Africans severely.

Introduction

Ever since the retrovirus HIV was declared to be the cause of AIDS, a small but vocal group of scientists has argued in professional journals and publicly either that HIV is not the cause of AIDS, or that there is no evidence that HIV exists at all.

Scientists should be aware of the social harm that can result from the premature proclamation of claims that are weakly founded. Scientists must be particularly careful when their science deals with questions of human import. They have entered the political arena.1

The self declared "HIV dissidents" blame other putative causes for AIDS, including the health consequences of highly active sex lives involving drug taking and multiple partners in developed countries, and/or poverty in developing countries.2 They allege that essential AIDS drugs are one of the real causes of AIDS. A corollary of this position has been the view that AIDS is not infectious at all.

Jürgen Habermas’s insights into our "erkenntnisleitendes Interesse" encourage me to come clear at this stage and declare that I was one of those vocal HIV dissident academics. Some years ago I changed sides in this dispute and accepted that mainstream views of HIV and AIDS are correct. Since I changed my views on this matter, I also happen to have changed my employer. I moved from developed world Australia with its rather small number of people with AIDS, to developing world South Africa, reportedly the country with the largest number of AIDS cases worldwide. Prevalence rates in the country among persons aged 15–49 years old are around 15%.3 Perhaps surprisingly for the uninitiated observer, the South African government’s publicly expressed views on HIV and AIDS, and its policies with regard to the provision of essential AIDS drugs have for a number of years mimicked, in important ways, the views of HIV dissidents. There is some evidence that the government stance on HIV/AIDS moved closer to mainstream views in 2002, but the question of whether this will translate into realistic HIV/AIDS policies remains unanswered at the time of writing. The publicly expressed views of the South African President, Mr Thabo Mbeki, and his health minister, medical doctor Manto Tshabalala Msimang, are very strongly influenced by the views of HIV dissidents.

In this article, I describe in some detail the inner workings of the HIV dissident group, and its impact on high risk groups in developed countries, as well as its impact on South African government policies. My attention will then turn to two interesting ethical questions that arise in this context. The first question is to do with the issue of what responsibilities biomedical professionals have towards a scientifically unqualified public. In the case under consideration, HIV dissidents took their initially scientific dispute out of the arena of biomedical journals, with their standard processes of anonymous peer review, into the public domain, campaigning on TV and in gay magazines, daily newspapers, and similar publications. Indeed, their internet based offerings4,5 persuaded South African President Thabo Mbeki to take their views seriously. The consequences for the provision of essential AIDS drugs to those HIV infected among the country’s impoverished masses were grave.

The question I should like to pose is this: if you are a biomedical scientist who fails to convince your peers of your views on a particular matter of legitimate scientific inquiry, is it acceptable that you take your minority views "to the streets" in order to drum up public and media support for your stance? I will also examine whether one can legitimately blame the proponent of such a minority position for decisions made by members of the public who decide to act on such a minority view.

The second ethical question is to do with the ethical responsibilities of leading politicians and government officials towards their sovereign, the citizens of their country. I shall argue that the South African government has, over many years, neglected its moral obligations towards HIV infected individuals and people with AIDS, while pursuing AIDS policies strongly influenced by dissident views.
 
I actually think the term is redundant, clinically. HIV positive is how I always hear it described.
HIV-AIDS is the generally accepted terminology for HIV infection which has advanced to AIDS and for the general discussion of the disease. There are several other immunodeficiencies though acquired types besides HIV are rare. (Immunosuppression is a different cookie.)

Idiopathic CD4+ T-Lymphocytopenia -- Immunodeficiency without Evidence of HIV Infection

Primary immunodeficiencies.
 
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Cats can catch H5N1 from eating dead birds. Doesn't make them sick at all. It kills birds by the millions, AND is highly infectious in them. It makes humans sick when humans get infected, etc. etc. etc.

Sheesh....
Actually I think HPAI H5N1 is highly lethal in cats. Of course we mostly know from the few dead ones that were tested. I'm not aware of any seroprevalence studies in house or feral cats. There were quite a few tigers killed in one zoo outbreak of H5N1.
 
Now, do you care to provide the reference for your claim that Gallo now thinks poppers cause Kaposi?
I was still referring to the Kary Mullis interview linked to earlier, but someone criticized my "Cross Referencing Skillz" so I found some other site saying that:

http://www.posh-uk.org.uk/gmh/data.html said:
Dr. Robert Gallo: "No longer is HIV believed to cause KAPOSI'S SARCOMA. by itself; at most it may aggravate KS after it has been caused by something else" and "No longer is HIV believed to kill T-cells: whatever damage it allegedly does, it does indirectly".

"You can't have Down's without an extra 21st chromosome. If you don't have an extra 21st chromosome, you don't have Down's, per definition. Even when you're deformed and severely mentally impared. Which is why it's all BS."
That's a different argument. You can remove the Trisomy-21 requirement from the down's syndrome's definition, and you still get a very accurate list of mental and physical impairments that someone with Trisomy-21 will suffer from. If "Down's Syndrome" was extended to include "Any sort of birth defect" in presence of a diagnosis of Trisomy-21, implying Trisomy-21 could cause *all* birth defects, and then using this "extended down syndrome" definition to prove that all "extended down syndrome" patients have trisomy-21, hence trisomy-21 causes all known birth defects, that's just horribly bad science. Yet you defend this logic when it's about HIV/AIDS.

Don't get me wrong: I don't deny the possibility that HIV causes a disease (despite lack of proof to that end), but even if it does, the AIDS definition is junk.

It's hard to believe the nonsense being thrown around this thread without a shred of credible supporting evidence. The links to the actual scientific research and debunking of the nonsense is never addressed, just repeating of the inaccurate and discredited information as if no one really presented anything refuting the garbage.
Um, when has someone posted anything that wasn't purely speculative, or didn't merely assert without proof?
A case study of a *single* patient that was diagnosed with HIV when she tried to enter the military services, and since all sex partners were tested negative for HIV, it was concluded that the HIV-positive dentist must have somehow infected her. The possibility of the patient to have been infected with HIV in utero is completely ignored. Junk Science. Go back treating your HIV patients, Ms. Nurse.

The stupidity of accepting these decades old denier hypotheses is highlighted by the fact that genetic research has established not just the fact HIV causes AIDS, but also how it does it, how it is transmitted, some factors which facilitate and hinder transmission, and the same research has resulted in an arsenal of anti-retroviral drugs which are now keeping people with HIV alive for decades.
Right now there's roughly a dozen of different, speculative theories on how HIV supposedly destroys the immune system. None of them seem to have any merit to them, other than asserting that HIV somehow HAS to do it.

This last piece, for the sake of simplicity, I will shorten and translate.
I think all we skeptics will find this article of particualr interest:

"I used to assert that the HIV/AIDS theory is flawed. Now I subscribe to the mainstream theory and I found a job. Yay!"
 
I've only looked at the first page or so of this, but it occurs to me that Dabljuh's silly pseudosemantic games, so far as I've seen them, could be applied to any immune deficiency.
 
Um, when has someone posted anything that wasn't purely speculative, or didn't merely assert without proof?
????? You lost me here. You and robinson have posted all sorts of unsupportable claims that HIV has not been proven as the cause of HIV-AIDS and that HIV has not been proven to be sexually transmitted, yadda yadda.

A case study of a *single* patient that was diagnosed with HIV when she tried to enter the military services, and since all sex partners were tested negative for HIV, it was concluded that the HIV-positive dentist must have somehow infected her. The possibility of the patient to have been infected with HIV in utero is completely ignored. Junk Science. Go back treating your HIV patients, Ms. Nurse.
That was the last of the 6 patients to be discovered. Really! You have no clue about Dr Acer, serial murderer?

And HIV in utero? I take it then the genetic research connecting the line of transmission just went over your head?

Right now there's roughly a dozen of different, speculative theories on how HIV supposedly destroys the immune system. None of them seem to have any merit to them, other than asserting that HIV somehow HAS to do it...
And another unsupported claim of fact leaks out of your apparently not so well read brain.
 
Only 3 of 40 cats were infected and only 2 developed antibodies. I think the study shows more about infection not being transmitted than about lethality. However, the three cats in question did not succumb.

But that wasn't the case in these other reports from your article's bib and a couple more from PubMed..

Influenza A Virus (H5N1) Infection in Cats Causes Systemic Disease with Potential Novel Routes of Virus Spread within and between Hosts
...To study its pathogenesis in a mammalian host, domestic cats were inoculated with H5N1 virus intratracheally (n = 3), by feeding on virus-infected chicks (n = 3), or by horizontal transmission (n = 2) and examined by virological and pathological assays. In all cats, virus replicated not only in the respiratory tract but also in multiple extra-respiratory tissues. Virus antigen expression in these tissues was associated with severe necrosis and inflammation 7 days after inoculation. In cats fed on virus-infected chicks only, virus-associated ganglioneuritis also occurred in the submucosal and myenteric plexi of the small intestine, suggesting direct infection from the intestinal lumen. All cats excreted virus not only via the respiratory tract but also via the digestive tract. This study in cats demonstrates that H5N1 virus infection causes systemic disease and spreads by potentially novel routes within and between mammalian hosts.

Avian H5N1 influenza in cats.
During the 2003 to 2004 outbreak of avian influenza A (H5N1) virus in Asia, there were anecdotal reports of fatal infection in domestic cats, although this species is considered resistant to influenza. We experimentally inoculated cats with H5N1 virus intratracheally and by feeding them virus-infected chickens. The cats excreted virus, developed severe diffuse alveolar damage, and transmitted virus to sentinel cats. These results show that domestic cats are at risk of disease or death from H5N1 virus, can be infected by horizontal transmission, and may play a role in the epidemiology of this virus.

Influenza virus is not known to affect wild felids. We demonstrate that avian influenza A (H5N1) virus caused severe pneumonia in tigers and leopards that fed on infected poultry carcasses.

Probable tiger-to-tiger transmission of avian influenza H5N1.

The H5N1 avian influenza virus outbreak among zoo tigers in mid-October 2004, with 45 animals dead, indicated that the avian influenza virus could cause lethal infection in a large mammalian species apart from humans.
 
Deetee: Now, do you care to provide the reference for your claim that Gallo now thinks poppers cause Kaposi?

I was still referring to the Kary Mullis interview linked to earlier, but someone criticized my "Cross Referencing Skillz" so I found some other site saying that:

Originally Posted by http://www.posh-uk.org.uk/gmh/data.html
Dr. Robert Gallo: "No longer is HIV believed to cause KAPOSI'S SARCOMA. by itself; at most it may aggravate KS after it has been caused by something else"
So, I take it this is a grudging admission you lied about this.

I have pinned you down to a single specific citation you used, and we now see this to be untrue. This pattern is replicated by AIDS denialists everywhere - you are no different. Should we examine your other lies?

You ARE a troll. Why are you posting here? You only make denialists look stupider than they are.

You started out here with some half-arsed claims, pretending you wanted a reasoned debate about the issues. However, in the face of evidence, your claims have become more extreme, strident and unsustainable. You say you have a science background - how about showing you cmprehend the scientific method and understand that scientists admit their errors and learn from their mistakes and from the mistakes and experiences of others? I have yet to see you stick to discussion of one single topic to its conclusion- like all denialists you skip on to another topic as soon as things get uncomfortable for you.

How about we examine in more depth your claim that HIV is only transmitted in utero. What evidence do you have for this statement?
 
According to W my sister-in-law did too! Weird!

Miss A and JQ, I'm sorry to hear about your loved ones. A young man I grew up with, lived across the street from my entire childhood died from AIDS very early on in the pandemic. I've recently thought about making an AIDS quilt panel for him but haven't yet done so.

Do either of the people you mention have a panel?
 
I didn't, it was kelly who wouldn't shut up about it.

Then what do you say to the tests which show that AIDS patients basically always have significant levels of HIVs?

I can imagine that you think that. But here's a task for you: Find a research study that conclusively proves that HIV irreversibly damages the human immune system in a significant number of cases. Not one that assumes that HIV causes AIDS, but a study that puts this proposition to a test.

Just a question: Do you know how viruses reproduce?

You aren't listening. You can't have AIDS without HIV. If you don't have HIV, you don't have AIDS, per definition. Even when your arms are rotting off. Which is why I think the whole thing is BS in the first place.

I'm sorry, but that is wrong. To my knowledge, the link between AIDS (a syndrome) and HIV (a Virus) is what is shown, and that is why it is the way it is. You can have HIV and not have AIDS. I guess it is possible to have AIDS and not have an HIV infection.
 

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