Proof of God

My contention is that a belief in unicorns-as-god would have the same salutary effect on humans as does belief in god. Belief is the culprit, not the entity believed in.
Huh? What causes a "salutary effect on humans" - that is called a "culprit"?

I'm even willing to entertain the idea that, as an artifact of self-consciousness, god-belief is socially useful.
Wow, you are even willing to remotely consider overwhelming evidence although it contradicts your ideology.
But OK, could be worse.

I would define truth as that that holds regardless of human notions.
What is that? You're defining an unknown by another unknown!

Since you have obviously not looked into this problem (intellectual laziness?) let me present to you the truth model I think is closest to your mindset:

Correspondence theory of truth

The correspondence theory of truth states that something (for example, a proposition or statement or sentence) is rendered true by the existence of a fact with corresponding elements and a similar structure. The theory maintains that the truth or falsity of a statement is determined only by how it relates to the world, and whether it accurately describes (i.e., corresponds with) that world. The theory presupposes an objective world and is therefore antagonistic to theories that problematise objectivity


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correspondence_theory_of_truth

This model basically supports an objective reality and says that our statement about an object is true when it accurately represents that object.

Good?

Your problem is, you don't know Kant. And how he slaughtered this approach with crystal clear, relentless logic:

"Truth is said to consist in the agreement of knowledge with the object. According to this mere verbal definition, then, my knowledge, in order to be true, must agree with the object. Now, I can only compare the object with my knowledge by this means, namely, by taking knowledge of it. My knowledge, then, is to be verified by itself, which is far from being sufficient for truth. For as the object is external to me, and the knowledge is in me, I can only judge whether my knowledge of the object agrees with my knowledge of the object. :D
[Kant - you're da man!]

... this account of truth was as if a man before a judicial tribunal should make a statement, and appeal in support of it to a witness whom no one knows, but who defends his own credibility by saying that the man who had called him as a witness is an honourable man. :D"

You're dusted. Try next.

The difficulty is separating human "notions" of truth from the empirical reality of truth.
There is no such thing. There is only empirical reality of .. reality. Truth is basically an intersubjective agreement between humans about in how far a human assertion reflects reality in a good way.

But it is an ongoing and possibly never-ending process where "truth" must constantly be re-evaluated in light of new evidence.
Good. You are getting a glimpse that "truth" is not within nature, but within humans minds.

Herzblut
 
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What causes "salutary effect on humans" is a "culprit"?

Yup. Because it is a delusion. A useful delusion is still a delusion.


Wow, you are even willing to remotely consider overwhelming evidence although it contradicts your ideology. You're the true thinker!
What is it that you think is my ideology? Communist? Anarchist? Libertarian? Liberal? When did politics come into this discussion? I have never stated in this thread what ideology, if any, that I subscribe to. You are veering way off course.


What is that? You're defining an unknown by another unknown!
You are defining it by what makes you, or a majority of people, happy. Are you a utilitarian?

Since you have obviously not looked into this problem (intellectual lazyness?)
You are such a friendly chap aren't you? Are you this pleasant when not hiding behind your keyboard?
let me present to you the truth model I think is closest to your mindset:

Correspondence theory of truth

The correspondence theory of truth states that something (for example, a proposition or statement or sentence) is rendered true by the existence of a fact with corresponding elements and a similar structure. The theory maintains that the truth or falsity of a statement is determined only by how it relates to the world, and whether it accurately describes (i.e., corresponds with) that world. The theory presupposes an objective world and is therefore antagonistic to theories that problematise objectivity


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correspondence_theory_of_truth

This model supports an objective reality and assumes that (human!) statements are true when they accurately represent that reality.

Good?

Your problem is, you don't know Kant. And how he slaughtered this nonsense with crystal clear, relentless logic:

"Truth is said to consist in the agreement of knowledge with the object. According to this mere verbal definition, then, my knowledge, in order to be true, must agree with the object. Now, I can only compare the object with my knowledge by this means, namely, by taking knowledge of it. My knowledge, then, is to be verified by itself, which is far from being sufficient for truth. For as the object is external to me, and the knowledge is in me, I can only judge whether my knowledge of the object agrees with my knowledge of the object. :D
[Kant - you're da man!]

... this account of truth was as if a man before a judicial tribunal should make a statement, and appeal in support of it to a witness whom no one knows, but who defends his own credibility by saying that the man who had called him as a witness is an honourable man. :D"

You're dusted. Try next.
I'll see your Kant and raise you one Hegel. He claimed to definitely overcome the Subject/Object problem. He says of his system:

"In my view, which can be justified only by the exposition of the system itself, everything turns on grasping and expressing the True, not only as Substance, but equally as Subject."

He would seem to agree with Kant's criticism of empiricism here:

“It is not difficult to see that the way of asserting a proposition, adducing reasons for it, and in the same way refuting its opposite by reasons, is not the form in which truth can appear. A table of contents is all that it offers, the content itself it does not offer at all."

But then he has this to say about synthetic truth:

The pedantry and pomposity of science are not to be replaced by the non-method of pre-sentiment and inspiration, or by the arbitrariness of prophetic utterance, both of which despise not only scientific pomposity, but scientific procedure of all kinds."

Sound familiar? I think Herr Hegel may have your truth model pegged.

Hegel claimed to have a system that could reveal Absolute Knowledge by successfully merging Subject and Object. I, however, make no such claims. I actually agree much more with Kant, as you have partially observed. I agree that empiricism is fallible...I simply think it is the best we can do.

I'm not sure Kant agrees with you though, because...

There is no such thing. There is only empirical reality of .. reality. Truth is an intersubjective agreement between humans in how far a human proportion reflects reality in a good way.
I defined Truth in a quasi-Hegelian or perhaps quasi-Platonic sense - i.e., the essence of what is, separate from all subjectivity. Or, as you put it, "the empirical reality of...reality" I then said that complete knowledge of this was not possible to achieve, but that the evidence-based paradigm was the best we can do.

I am quite aware that we impose our categories of understanding onto what is. My claim is that the evidence-based paradigm results in the smallest degree of imposition. Through your interpretation of Kant, you seem to be saying that it is not possible to make claims of that nature at all - i.e., that the claim itself is an imposition of the categories of understanding onto reality, therefore we should just go with what makes us happy, or reflects reality "in a good way".

Are you sure that Kant allows you to do this? There is one thing that we may be able to use to determine which approach imposes the least onto reality and is most successful in reflecting what is - results.

And by results, I don't mean the happy-happy-joy-joy of god-belief or any of the social-bonding group benefits it may confer. I mean the successful ongoing conquest of nature, the results of which you can see all around you.


You start to get a glimpse that "truth" is not within nature, but within human's minds.
You reveal yourself as a relativist and a nihilist. I don't think this is a Kantian perspective at all.

Truth is within nature, but we may never be capable of fully uncovering it. There is an objective universe about which we can make true statements. The means to do this is empirical science, Kant or no Kant, although we will likely never reveal truth in its entirety. Faith does not have this capacity in even the smallest degree.
 
There are unicorns, who said this, "there are no unicorns" liar!

They have evolved and crawled back into the sea.

This should prove evolution once and for all.
Unicorns and Peter Pan have something in common we eat them both.
Unicorn steaks for everybody!
Except paul.
 

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Much better, your last post! Not bad. You fall into some well known traps, as you will see, but that doesn't matter. You are keen to learn, that's what counts.
Yup. Because it is a delusion. A useful delusion is still a delusion.
Discrediting a notion beneficial for so many people is wiked. Your Weltanschauung is lacking a moral codex that reserves Humanism its due place. This is a huge gap.

What is it that you think is my ideology? Communist? Anarchist? Libertarian? Liberal? When did politics come into this discussion?
Check out the definition of ideology to find out that ideology is by no means restricted to politics.

You are defining it by what makes you, or a majority of people, happy. Are you a utilitarian?
Don't distract. Your definition draft of "truth" is useless. Don't distort what I have said. I talked about "agreement", not happiness. If nothing else, check at least Wikipedia: A common dictionary definition of truth is "agreement with fact or reality". Yeah, happiness, pfffff!

Hegel claimed to have a system that could reveal Absolute Knowledge by successfully merging Subject and Object. I, however, make no such claims. I actually agree much more with Kant, as you have partially observed.
That's fine. We cannot disagree in everything!

I agree that empiricism is fallible...I simply think it is the best we can do.
Trap: You're thinking is self-refuting!

I defined Truth in a quasi-Hegelian or perhaps quasi-Platonic sense - i.e., the essence of what is, separate from all subjectivity.
Why truth? That is nature I believe.

I then said that complete knowledge of this was not possible to achieve, but that the evidence-based paradigm was the best we can do.
Trap 1: with per se incomplete knowledge you cannot exclude you are fully wrong.
Trap 2: self-refuting again! (You assert evidence-based paradigm is best, which refutes your own assertion by not being evidence-based)

I am quite aware that we impose our categories of understanding onto what is. My claim is that the evidence-based paradigm results in the smallest degree of imposition.
Trap: self-refuting again!!

Through your interpretation of Kant, you seem to be saying that it is not possible to make claims of that nature at all
I don't.

You reveal yourself as a relativist and a nihilist.
Nonsense.

Truth is within nature, but we may never be capable of fully uncovering it.
What is your worldview? Can't be naturalistic since you seem to be assigning some mental properties to the world. Nature also has got, say, consciousness or a free will?

Herzblut
 
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There are unicorns, who said this, "there are no unicorns" liar!

They have evolved and crawled back into the sea.

This should prove evolution once and for all.
Unicorns and Peter Pan have something in common we eat them both.
Unicorn steaks for everybody!
Except paul.
First of all edge, that is not a horn, that is a tooth.

Paul

:) :) :)

go back to school..............
 
Herzblut,

Which of these two statements do you consider as closer to being a true statement - i.e., a reflection of what is (or nature, if you prefer), and why:

1. The sun is a luminous ball of plasma composed largely of hydrogen and helium that generates energy through nuclear fusion.

2. Ra, god of the sun, travels by boat so that he is protected from the primordial waters during his journey through the underworld thus allowing his successful rebirth in the sky.

In addition, by what means was the knowledge contained in this true statement (or nearly true statement, if you prefer) determined?
 
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Hallelujah, praise the BillyJoe!

I would like to announce to everyone that BillyJoe is one-hundred percent right!

I will never, ever again say, "There is no god." Thank you, BillyJoe, for showing me the error of my ways! Since I cannot prove a negative, I will simply be agnostic from now on.

Furthermore, I will consistently apply this new logical paradigm to every aspect of my life. As such, I am now completely agnostic about unicorns, fairies, bigfoot, the aether, ghosts, goblins and Glinda the Good Witch!

I also am now an ardent supporter of homeopathy, after all - no one has ever proven that it doesn't exist! Who's to say that everything we think we know about science isn't completely wrong? On top of that, I now support perpetual motion machines, magnet therapy, acupuncture, reiki, iridology and anything that claims to be removing 'toxins' from my body!

Unfortunately, I will be unable to leave my house or use my computer anymore, as I cannot prove that CIA agents are not outside my house waiting to assassinate me, or that my computer is not actually a mind control device planted in my home by ASIO. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that somebody is permanently standing behind me, watching my every move - even as I type this now! When I turn around they aren't there anymore, but I can't conclusively prove that they able to spontaneously turn invisible, or that they don't have super-human speed that allows them to hide behind objects in the time it takes me to turn around or raise a mirror, so I had better not rule out the existence of this stalker entirely...

Isn't taking an argument to its logical conclusion fun, ladies and gentlemen?
 
Don't distract. Explain why the statement "(I believe) God exists" is within the realm of science.

Because it is making a claim as to the existence of an entity. If there are additional claims as to effects the entity is said to produce, these should also be dealt with by science.

Also explain why the following "claims about the world" are within the realm of science:

- "Murder is wrong"
- "I could have been a rock star"
- "Chocolate ice-scream tastes better than vanilla ice-scream"

These are not scientific claims. I should have been more exact with my original definition - perhaps, "Science deals with observable phenomena," would be a more appropriate definition. Still not perfect, but more appropriate.

Please provide evidence to what science cares about or respects. Explain what science has to do with care and respect in the first place.

Justify why science should follow your advices.

Science cares about and respects nothing. It is simply a framework, put in place to test hypothesis. That is why it is arrogant to assume religion is 'above' science.

What do you mean by science? Human beings can care but not the entity called science. Please explain.

This is entirely my point. Science doesn't care because it cannot care. It is NOT an entity!

Why did you all of a sudden jump to normative statements about who and what should do? Should..should..should..

Please give scientific evidence to all of your normative statements!

It is not me claiming that religion should be above science though!

Science is a framework that works. It produces real, observable, quantifiable results. That the god hypothesis fails at the first hurdle (evidence for existence) is not a failing of science, but rather a failing of religion.

Especially explain why anybody should give a **** about what you think he/she should do.

Strawman - I never said that anybody should give an asterix about what I think they should do.
 
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You mean like this paul,
In the Middle Ages, people thought the narwhal’s tusk was the horn of a unicorn and it was in demand as an antidote to poisons. The narwhal is actually a small whale and its tusks, which are only found on males and can grow to as much as three metres long, are actually extended teeth.

It was a joke Paul.
Lighten up.
 
Hallelujah, praise the BillyJoe!

I would like to announce to everyone that BillyJoe is one-hundred percent right!

I will never, ever again say, "There is no god." Thank you, BillyJoe, for showing me the error of my ways! Since I cannot prove a negative, I will simply be agnostic from now on.

Furthermore, I will consistently apply this new logical paradigm to every aspect of my life. As such, I am now completely agnostic about unicorns, fairies, bigfoot, the aether, ghosts, goblins and Glinda the Good Witch!

I also am now an ardent supporter of homeopathy, after all - no one has ever proven that it doesn't exist! Who's to say that everything we think we know about science isn't completely wrong? On top of that, I now support perpetual motion machines, magnet therapy, acupuncture, reiki, iridology and anything that claims to be removing 'toxins' from my body!

Unfortunately, I will be unable to leave my house or use my computer anymore, as I cannot prove that CIA agents are not outside my house waiting to assassinate me, or that my computer is not actually a mind control device planted in my home by ASIO. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that somebody is permanently standing behind me, watching my every move - even as I type this now! When I turn around they aren't there anymore, but I can't conclusively prove that they able to spontaneously turn invisible, or that they don't have super-human speed that allows them to hide behind objects in the time it takes me to turn around or raise a mirror, so I had better not rule out the existence of this stalker entirely...

Isn't taking an argument to its logical conclusion fun, ladies and gentlemen?


No mention of dragons. I'm offended.
 
Hallelujah, praise the BillyJoe!

I would like to announce to everyone that BillyJoe is one-hundred percent right!

I will never, ever again say, "There is no god." Thank you, BillyJoe, for showing me the error of my ways! Since I cannot prove a negative, I will simply be agnostic from now on.

Furthermore, I will consistently apply this new logical paradigm to every aspect of my life. As such, I am now completely agnostic about unicorns, fairies, bigfoot, the aether, ghosts, goblins and Glinda the Good Witch!

I also am now an ardent supporter of homeopathy, after all - no one has ever proven that it doesn't exist! Who's to say that everything we think we know about science isn't completely wrong? On top of that, I now support perpetual motion machines, magnet therapy, acupuncture, reiki, iridology and anything that claims to be removing 'toxins' from my body!

Unfortunately, I will be unable to leave my house or use my computer anymore, as I cannot prove that CIA agents are not outside my house waiting to assassinate me, or that my computer is not actually a mind control device planted in my home by ASIO. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that somebody is permanently standing behind me, watching my every move - even as I type this now! When I turn around they aren't there anymore, but I can't conclusively prove that they able to spontaneously turn invisible, or that they don't have super-human speed that allows them to hide behind objects in the time it takes me to turn around or raise a mirror, so I had better not rule out the existence of this stalker entirely...

Isn't taking an argument to its logical conclusion fun, ladies and gentlemen?

I enjoyed it!
 
Because it is making a claim as to the existence of an entity.
My gosh! Is "There is an invincible dragon in my garage" a scientific claim? NO. Because it is by no means falsifiable. Same as "God exists".

Thus: "God exists" is a non-falsifiable claim and therefore outside the realm of science!

I'm glad I could help you out of your mental deadlock.

These are not scientific claims.
Why? By what definition?

I should have been more exact with my original definition - perhaps, "Science deals with observable phenomena," would be a more appropriate definition.
The Big Bang is observable, you say?

Science cares about and respects nothing.
Then quit making bottomless speculations about it.

It is simply a framework, put in place to test hypothesis. That is why it is arrogant to assume religion is 'above' science.
Who said so?

Science is a framework that works. It produces real, observable, quantifiable results.
Religion also. Religious people are healthier and happier. This is a promise religions make, and they keep it. These are real, observable, quantifiable results.

That the god hypothesis fails at the first hurdle (evidence for existence) is not a failing of science, but rather a failing of religion.
Nonsense. Religious beliefs are mostly outside of the realm of science, pls. see above to refresh your ever-blocking mind.

"God exists" is a non-falsifiable claim and therefore outside the realm of science!

Religions make metaphysical/philosophical claims. Same as your view of the world is based on a philosophy that cannot by judged scientifically. Wanna try? WHAT is your fundamental worldview? Come on!

Strawman - I never said that anybody should give an asterix about what I think they should do.
Of course you did! You said "A should do this" or "B should not do that". Quit giving orders, please.

Herzblut
 
Religion also. Religious people are healthier and happier. This is a promise religions make, and they keep it. These are real, observable, quantifiable results.
That is a lie, so living a lie makes people happier, funny they sure don't sound happier to me when I talk to them, if anything they have a funny way of looking at the world that is false. Please come to the states and hear some people talking about how dinosaurs were walking with people 6 thousand years ago when the earth was new, that is the crap that my mother hears at her Born-again church, among the many more lies that she is taught to be true.
Religions make metaphysical/philosophical claims. Same as your view of the world is based on a philosophy that cannot by judged scientifically. Wanna try? WHAT is your fundamental worldview? Come on!
That is an other lie, there is something called the Social Sciences. You are the one with a ever-blocking mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_sciences

Oh, we are so happy are in the States because religious people made a good chose in making Bush our president on false ideas based on religion. Now how many have died because of that good old religion in the Middle-East.

Paul

:) :) :)

Happy happy happy happy
 
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Hallelujah, praise the BillyJoe!


Why, thank you. :)

I would like to announce to everyone that BillyJoe is one-hundred percent right!


No, really, you are too kind. :o

I will never, ever again say, "There is no god." Thank you, BillyJoe, for showing me the error of my ways! Since I cannot prove a negative, I will simply be agnostic from now on.


Oh no, atheism is fine, really. :confused:


Furthermore, I will consistently apply this new logical paradigm to every aspect of my life. As such, I am now completely agnostic about unicorns, fairies, bigfoot, the aether, ghosts, goblins and Glinda the Good Witch!


No, no, you don't have to worry about those characters, really. :rolleyes:

I also am now an ardent supporter of homeopathy, after all - no one has ever proven that it doesn't exist! Who's to say that everything we think we know about science isn't completely wrong? On top of that, I now support perpetual motion machines, magnet therapy, acupuncture, reiki, iridology and anything that claims to be removing 'toxins' from my body!


:eek:

Unfortunately, I will be unable to leave my house or use my computer anymore, as I cannot prove that CIA agents are not outside my house waiting to assassinate me, or that my computer is not actually a mind control device planted in my home by ASIO. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that somebody is permanently standing behind me, watching my every move - even as I type this now! When I turn around they aren't there anymore, but I can't conclusively prove that they able to spontaneously turn invisible, or that they don't have super-human speed that allows them to hide behind objects in the time it takes me to turn around or raise a mirror, so I had better not rule out the existence of this stalker entirely...


:jaw-dropp

Isn't taking an argument to its logical conclusion fun, ladies and gentlemen?


...of the circle jerk. :D
 
Mobydick,

It's not all bad.

You've convinced me of one thing at least....
.....masturbation does send you blind!


regards all,
BillyJoe

(It's been an interesting experience)
 
That is a lie, that must be a lie, you are a liar, why do you lie to me, lie, lie, lie, lie.
Stop your screeching franzy. It's wimpy. Face reality.

David Sloan Wilson: "Why Richard Dawkins is Wrong About Religion"
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86452

Or keep dreaming your narrow-minded, stubborn, discriminatory worldview and face people's mockery against you.

so living a lie makes people happier, funny they sure don't sound happier to me when I talk to them, if anything they have a funny way of looking at the world that is false. Please come to the states and hear some people talking about how dinosaurs were walking with people 6 thousand years ago when the earth was new, that is the crap that my
mother hears at her Born-again church, among the many more lies that she is taught to be true.
The anecdotes about your poor life honestly stir me to tears <sniff><sniff>. On the other hand they're totally irrelevant and putting them up against scientific evidence is outright insane.

That is an other lie,
Nonsense. Stop screeching and start thinking. If possible.

:):)

Herzblut
 
The only part of that claim that is a property is eternal existence. So now we have an imaginary being that has the property of eternal existence combined with the claim that this being created the universe. How will you provide evidence for this being?


I don't intend to.
I don't need to.
I do not claim that god exists.

How is this being's existence more worthy of belief than that of unicorns? How is disbelief in this being's existence less reasonable than disbelief in the existence of unicorns?


Refer to previous answer to this question.

The deist god is the demiurge. He has your "special attribute". Zooterkin asked why you would accept the statement "there are no unicorns" but not "there is no god".


Please refer me to where I have stated "there are no unicorns".

You answered that it is because god has this "special attribute" and unicorns do not. This "special attribute" thus somehow makes the ridiculous fantasy of god more believable then the ridiculous fantasy of unicorns.


If you can show me where science has answered the question "how do you get something out of nothing?" or, alternatively, "how can there be time without beginning".....

Do you understand the question now?


The question is do you understand the answer?

Nonetheless, let's parse this sentence a little: "It's ok to accept the non-existence of god." According to this sentence, god does not exist - i.e., there is no god. Or do you have an alternate interpretation of "the non-existence of god"? The point of the sentence is to assure the reader that accepting this fact (god's non-existence) is perfectly alright...


"It's ok to accept the non-existence of god."
"the non-existence of god" = "there is no god"
"It's ok to accept that there is no god"

I submit that the statement: "It's ok to accept that there is no god" is a whole lot less forceful that:

"THERE IS NO GOD"

And that's all I've been trying for in this thread.

I can't. But it is funny how my god is subject to positive claims for evidence before you will believe, but deist god is not.


Everytime you make a statement of my beliefs which I have specifically told you I do not hold I am going to say"


"LIAR"

You have not made the claim that deist god has the "special attribute"? I'm afraid you are contradicting yourself quite extraordinarily.


"LIAR"
(hint: it was a definition not a claim)

According to you in your response to zooterkin:
Unicorns = legitimate disbelief
God = illegitimate disbelief.


"LIAR"

You have asked me to be less sceptical in god than I am in unicorns because the god has the "special attribute". This is reason to be more sceptical about the existence of god, not less.


"LIAR"
(hint:I have asked you to be more sceptical and refrain from making statement for which you have no evidence.)

Sigh. "There is no god" is not a positive claim, it is a negative one. In the absence of evidence for the positive claim "there is a god", I am perfectly justified in making the negative claim. This is your stumbling block in this whole fiasco of a thread.


"YOU ARE A LIAR"

(See how easy it is to exaggerate your position)
 
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