Revolutionary91
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Ok, champ, you win. Well done on winning something against a 15 year old on the internet. Be sure to tell your buddies about it tomorrow and get plenty of high fives.
[Merged]architects and engineers for 9/11 truth = SCAM!
- Thread starter MarkyX
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Ok, champ, you win. Well done on winning something against a 15 year old on the internet. Be sure to tell your buddies about it tomorrow and get plenty of high fives.
Revolutionary91
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We can all provide anecdotes about our peers. 911 truth is buzzing round my school. If you look carefully at the poll qarnos linked to it states that 65% of the young demographic believe in an inside job. The young are the future too so it can only grow.
qarnos
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qarnos
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Ok, champ, you win. Well done on winning something against a 15 year old on the internet. Be sure to tell your buddies about it tomorrow and get plenty of high fives.
If you insist on being treated like an adult, you can't hide behind your age when things don't go your way.
Jonnyclueless
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And if you manufacture a poll that shows 75% instead of 65% it's even bigger. Creating illusions can be so much fun!
qarnos
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I wonder how many children 10 years and under believe in Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy and The Easter Bunny.
Hey, they're the future!! It can only grow!
chillzero
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A reminder about the enhanced moderation status of this forum:
Please remember to address the points being raised, and not direct your criticisms at the people raising them.
Please remember to address the points being raised, and not direct your criticisms at the people raising them.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By: chillzero
Rolfe
Adult human female
I apologise for continuing the derail, but as Traci hasn't shown up in the thread Gravy started for the purpose, then I don't see much alternative.
I know others have already said this, but as I'm a vet I'll chip in with some reinforcement.
First, I think you're way overestimating the probable costs of veterinary treatment for parvovirus. Only a very sick puppy needing an extended period as an inpatient in a veterinary clinic would run up that sort of bill. For most - well, you quoted $45, and also potentially $50 shipping on top of that, for the potion you sell, well, in my money that's around £50, that would go a long way towards a consultation and basic treatment and advice for a case of parvovirus. But of course it suits the unqualified peddlers of content-free potions to exaggerate veterinary costs. My main concern on that front is that if somebody who isn't well off chooses to purchase the potion, that's possibly $95 they don't have if the pet deteriorates and veterinary treatment (for example i/v fluids) becomes imperative.
Second, while dogs do die of parvo, you're vastly overestimating the mortality. Two points to note. One, most dogs with parvo will recover with sensible nursing and good attention to fluid therapy. Two, there is no specific "cure" for parvo that a vet can hand out. Much of what you're paying for at the vet's is diagnostic work, treatment to support the dog while nature does its work (fluid replacement and that sort of thing), and advice. A lot of this can be accomplished by an intelligent and knowledgeable pet owner without specific professional input. There simply isn't an expensive "cure" that you can have from the vet, but which you have to do without if you can't afford it. [Edited to add: I see Traci's potion isn't just advertised to treat Parvo, but other conditions with similar symptoms but quite different causes. Some of these conditions do have specific cures, Giardia for one, and frankly a course of metronidazole doesn't cost $95 of anybody's money, so this really makes it even worse.]
So yes, it's good to have professional advice and treatment if you can afford it, and it's not in fact likely to be as expensive as you seem to think. But it's not a magic bullet. Most of what the vet will provide is good nursing and supportive care, and the owner can do a lot of that.
What nobody needs is expensive but useless potions (sorry, but $95 or even $45 is expensive in my book, even for effective treatment - doubly so when you realise that there's nothing in these potions), and this goes double for people who are hard up.
62% of dogs as a "success rate"? Does that mean that 38% actually died? I'd be unhappy about that too, because it's more than I'd expect to die of parvo even without professional treatment. Since I very much doubt that the potion is harmful, what could be going on? As I said, much of the battle with parvo is nursing and fluid replacement. It takes work. If owners understand this and know what to do, they usually manage fairly well. However, I speculate that if someone has purchased an expensive potion that's advertised to treat the condition, do they perhaps feel they can rely on that to do the job, and fail to appreciate the vital importance of nursing? Just a thought. (You don't sit and watch a dog with parvo "die before your eyes", you get off your backside and nurse it!)
85% success rate advertised by the manufacturers? So, do we take it that means only 15% of dogs actually died? That's about what I'd expect with decent quality amateur nursing and supportive care. So maybe the manufacturers have been supporting their product with some sensible nursing advice at the same time?
But really, what do we make of these statistics? If "success" simply means that the patient survived, then to claim credit for all these survivals is grossly misleading. To do that implies that 100% of dogs would have died without treatment, which is simply nonsense.
What these studies lack is a control group. What is the survival rate of dogs treated with home nursing care only, compared to home nursing care plus the potion? Unless we know that, we can come to no conclusions on effectiveness. Just because you used the potion, and your dog survived, doesn't mean the potion "worked". The probability is that your dog would have survived anyway.
What we can do, however, is examine the probability that this potion has any likely method of action. Now, is this potion herbal, or is it homoeopathic?
If it's herbal, it's likely to have some actual ingredients. However, are they likely to do any good? Veterinary medicine would kill for a drug which was effective in parvovirus and similar acute viral conditions. (So would human medicine come to that.) Much research has gone into finding such a compound, including examining promising compounds in traditional plant remedies. Nothing doing. There simply isn't some magic ingredient in a commonly-used plant preparation that the veterinary pharmaceutical industry is unaware of.
If it's homoeopathic - well, read up a bit about homoeopathy. The potion will be so dilute that there is nothing there but the basic carrier material (the solvent). How much good is that going to do? Homoeopathy is a whole other can of worms, with bizarre beliefs such as "like cures like", miasms, and the conviction that the correct remedy for any patient can only be arrived at after a careful and painstaking examination of the individual symptoms of that particular patient. The concept of an off-the-shelf cure-all which will treat all case of a given disease entity is totally foreign to homoeopathic doctrine, and although we do see these preparations on sale, not only do we realise in rational terms that they can't work (because there's nothing in them), but they also can't work according to the principles and beliefs of homoeopathy itself.
I'm glad you're getting out of this area. It's far too easy to be misled by a personal experience of coincidental recovery into believing that such preparations have some efficacy. Then naive and uncritical believers become the next generation of pushers. However, it's fundamentally fraud which takes advantage of a particularly vulnerable group of people - pet owners who don't have much money - and depending on where you are and what sort of claims you make for the product, there's a good chance it may actually be illegal.
Rolfe.
PS. Two more comments.
1. Vaccination. While not 100% effective (often due to problems timing the vaccine doses correctly), provides very good protection against parvo. If a pet owner can't afford vaccination, I would question whether he or she should be keeping an animal at all.
2. Insurance. Yes, the premiums cost money, but if you have insurance then you will get the necessary treatment if your pet falls ill. If you don't have much spare cash, it's doubly important to budget for regular insurance payments to avoid having to "sit and watch your dog die" if it gets something nasty.
Either of those routes is money well spent, and I'd repeat, if you can't afford either vaccination or basic insurance, then it's questionable whether you should be keeping an animal. What isn't money well spent, is throwing it away on content-free patent potions.
I know others have already said this, but as I'm a vet I'll chip in with some reinforcement.
First, I think you're way overestimating the probable costs of veterinary treatment for parvovirus. Only a very sick puppy needing an extended period as an inpatient in a veterinary clinic would run up that sort of bill. For most - well, you quoted $45, and also potentially $50 shipping on top of that, for the potion you sell, well, in my money that's around £50, that would go a long way towards a consultation and basic treatment and advice for a case of parvovirus. But of course it suits the unqualified peddlers of content-free potions to exaggerate veterinary costs. My main concern on that front is that if somebody who isn't well off chooses to purchase the potion, that's possibly $95 they don't have if the pet deteriorates and veterinary treatment (for example i/v fluids) becomes imperative.
Second, while dogs do die of parvo, you're vastly overestimating the mortality. Two points to note. One, most dogs with parvo will recover with sensible nursing and good attention to fluid therapy. Two, there is no specific "cure" for parvo that a vet can hand out. Much of what you're paying for at the vet's is diagnostic work, treatment to support the dog while nature does its work (fluid replacement and that sort of thing), and advice. A lot of this can be accomplished by an intelligent and knowledgeable pet owner without specific professional input. There simply isn't an expensive "cure" that you can have from the vet, but which you have to do without if you can't afford it. [Edited to add: I see Traci's potion isn't just advertised to treat Parvo, but other conditions with similar symptoms but quite different causes. Some of these conditions do have specific cures, Giardia for one, and frankly a course of metronidazole doesn't cost $95 of anybody's money, so this really makes it even worse.]
So yes, it's good to have professional advice and treatment if you can afford it, and it's not in fact likely to be as expensive as you seem to think. But it's not a magic bullet. Most of what the vet will provide is good nursing and supportive care, and the owner can do a lot of that.
What nobody needs is expensive but useless potions (sorry, but $95 or even $45 is expensive in my book, even for effective treatment - doubly so when you realise that there's nothing in these potions), and this goes double for people who are hard up.
62% of dogs as a "success rate"? Does that mean that 38% actually died? I'd be unhappy about that too, because it's more than I'd expect to die of parvo even without professional treatment. Since I very much doubt that the potion is harmful, what could be going on? As I said, much of the battle with parvo is nursing and fluid replacement. It takes work. If owners understand this and know what to do, they usually manage fairly well. However, I speculate that if someone has purchased an expensive potion that's advertised to treat the condition, do they perhaps feel they can rely on that to do the job, and fail to appreciate the vital importance of nursing? Just a thought. (You don't sit and watch a dog with parvo "die before your eyes", you get off your backside and nurse it!)
85% success rate advertised by the manufacturers? So, do we take it that means only 15% of dogs actually died? That's about what I'd expect with decent quality amateur nursing and supportive care. So maybe the manufacturers have been supporting their product with some sensible nursing advice at the same time?
But really, what do we make of these statistics? If "success" simply means that the patient survived, then to claim credit for all these survivals is grossly misleading. To do that implies that 100% of dogs would have died without treatment, which is simply nonsense.
What these studies lack is a control group. What is the survival rate of dogs treated with home nursing care only, compared to home nursing care plus the potion? Unless we know that, we can come to no conclusions on effectiveness. Just because you used the potion, and your dog survived, doesn't mean the potion "worked". The probability is that your dog would have survived anyway.
What we can do, however, is examine the probability that this potion has any likely method of action. Now, is this potion herbal, or is it homoeopathic?
If it's herbal, it's likely to have some actual ingredients. However, are they likely to do any good? Veterinary medicine would kill for a drug which was effective in parvovirus and similar acute viral conditions. (So would human medicine come to that.) Much research has gone into finding such a compound, including examining promising compounds in traditional plant remedies. Nothing doing. There simply isn't some magic ingredient in a commonly-used plant preparation that the veterinary pharmaceutical industry is unaware of.
If it's homoeopathic - well, read up a bit about homoeopathy. The potion will be so dilute that there is nothing there but the basic carrier material (the solvent). How much good is that going to do? Homoeopathy is a whole other can of worms, with bizarre beliefs such as "like cures like", miasms, and the conviction that the correct remedy for any patient can only be arrived at after a careful and painstaking examination of the individual symptoms of that particular patient. The concept of an off-the-shelf cure-all which will treat all case of a given disease entity is totally foreign to homoeopathic doctrine, and although we do see these preparations on sale, not only do we realise in rational terms that they can't work (because there's nothing in them), but they also can't work according to the principles and beliefs of homoeopathy itself.
I'm glad you're getting out of this area. It's far too easy to be misled by a personal experience of coincidental recovery into believing that such preparations have some efficacy. Then naive and uncritical believers become the next generation of pushers. However, it's fundamentally fraud which takes advantage of a particularly vulnerable group of people - pet owners who don't have much money - and depending on where you are and what sort of claims you make for the product, there's a good chance it may actually be illegal.
Rolfe.
PS. Two more comments.
1. Vaccination. While not 100% effective (often due to problems timing the vaccine doses correctly), provides very good protection against parvo. If a pet owner can't afford vaccination, I would question whether he or she should be keeping an animal at all.
2. Insurance. Yes, the premiums cost money, but if you have insurance then you will get the necessary treatment if your pet falls ill. If you don't have much spare cash, it's doubly important to budget for regular insurance payments to avoid having to "sit and watch your dog die" if it gets something nasty.
Either of those routes is money well spent, and I'd repeat, if you can't afford either vaccination or basic insurance, then it's questionable whether you should be keeping an animal. What isn't money well spent, is throwing it away on content-free patent potions.
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Undesired Walrus
Penultimate Amazing
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MarkyX
Master Poster
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If the majority of Americans believed 9/11 was an inside job, there would be no reason for promotions or spraying graffiti near traffic areas. Your group constantly promotes because it doesn't have enough members.
The Silver Shadow
Graduate Poster
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- Jan 13, 2007
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- 1,060
The young are the future but I would suggest that you look at the type of person you were, the opinions you had 5 years ago, and compare them with today. 5 years from now, you should look at the type of person you were today and compare yourself to the 20 year old you have become. Opinions and the overall outlook of life changes with age. You're 15, you are in high school, a sheltered environment. When you leave for university or college or the real world, you will see how different it is out here vs. in there.
Revolution91:
You do not need an "ONLINE POLL" to prove my assertion. Go out to your local mall, and ask 100 people, both sexes, with some young, some old, some seniors, the question...
"Were 19 Arab terrorists working for Al-Qaeda responsible for the 9/11 attacks", and see what your results are.
As for your age of 15, I do not doubt your intellect, I have met lots of extremely intelligent 15 years olds, but wisdom and insight come with age, as does a more worldly perspective. This you lack, but you will hopefull gain as time goes on. If you do not like this or appreciate the comments, than I appologize, but the comments are true, none the less.
TAM
You do not need an "ONLINE POLL" to prove my assertion. Go out to your local mall, and ask 100 people, both sexes, with some young, some old, some seniors, the question...
"Were 19 Arab terrorists working for Al-Qaeda responsible for the 9/11 attacks", and see what your results are.
As for your age of 15, I do not doubt your intellect, I have met lots of extremely intelligent 15 years olds, but wisdom and insight come with age, as does a more worldly perspective. This you lack, but you will hopefull gain as time goes on. If you do not like this or appreciate the comments, than I appologize, but the comments are true, none the less.
TAM
Revolutionary91
Banned
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- Feb 20, 2007
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- 838
Revolution91:
You do not need an "ONLINE POLL" to prove my assertion. Go out to your local mall, and ask 100 people, both sexes, with some young, some old, some seniors, the question...
"Were 19 Arab terrorists working for Al-Qaeda responsible for the 9/11 attacks", and see what your results are.
As for your age of 15, I do not doubt your intellect, I have met lots of extremely intelligent 15 years olds, but wisdom and insight come with age, as does a more worldly perspective. This you lack, but you will hopefull gain as time goes on. If you do not like this or appreciate the comments, than I appologize, but the comments are true, none the less.
TAM
But, as Gravy pointed out, those 100 people in a mall would mostly say god exists. They would mostly say that JFK wasa conspiracy. Half would probably say they believe in UFOs. So how can you justify the misfit comment?
CHF
Illuminator
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- Oct 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,871
Revolutionary91,
you can argue all you want about the kind of support the 911 twoof movement has. But it means absolutely nothing if you fail to mobilize the support you supposedly have.
At yesterday's twoofer rally in Toronto I could count the attendees on one hand.
On 9/11/06, in a city of 8 million+ the twoofers drew a crowd of 800-1,000.
Your movement insists that its growing and yet apparently still feels the need to spray messages on overpasses and wave signs at concerts in the hope of getting a few seconds of coverage on TV. How do you figure this to be the case if you really have the support you claim?
What your movement fails to understand is that not supporting the "official story" does NOT mean someone believes in an "inside job."
If you were to ask me "Do you support the OS?" My answer would be no. I don't believe the terrorists simply hate "our way of life." I don't believe the government is honest about the fact that our Saudi "allies" fund and propagate the very Wahabbism we're at war with. I don't believe the Iraq war has anything to do with 9/11. So in that sense I don't agree with what you'd call the "official story" as told by the White House.
Yet you won't find me at a rally waving signs next to some half-wit who thinks the towers were demolitions.
I suspect that many opponents of the OS are in the same boat.
you can argue all you want about the kind of support the 911 twoof movement has. But it means absolutely nothing if you fail to mobilize the support you supposedly have.
At yesterday's twoofer rally in Toronto I could count the attendees on one hand.
On 9/11/06, in a city of 8 million+ the twoofers drew a crowd of 800-1,000.
Your movement insists that its growing and yet apparently still feels the need to spray messages on overpasses and wave signs at concerts in the hope of getting a few seconds of coverage on TV. How do you figure this to be the case if you really have the support you claim?
What your movement fails to understand is that not supporting the "official story" does NOT mean someone believes in an "inside job."
If you were to ask me "Do you support the OS?" My answer would be no. I don't believe the terrorists simply hate "our way of life." I don't believe the government is honest about the fact that our Saudi "allies" fund and propagate the very Wahabbism we're at war with. I don't believe the Iraq war has anything to do with 9/11. So in that sense I don't agree with what you'd call the "official story" as told by the White House.
Yet you won't find me at a rally waving signs next to some half-wit who thinks the towers were demolitions.
I suspect that many opponents of the OS are in the same boat.
The "misfit" labeling has nothing to do with you being right or wrong. Personally, on 9/11 I think you are wrong. The word misfit...miss fit, means you do not fit in with the majority.
On the question of what the majority of americans believe occured on 9/11 compared to what you believe, you are a misfit, or technically, your opinion is a "misfit" if that makes you feel better.
TAM
Revolutionary91
Banned
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- 838
The "misfit" labeling has nothing to do with you being right or wrong. Personally, on 9/11 I think you are wrong. The word misfit...miss fit, means you do not fit in with the majority.
On the question of what the majority of americans believe occured on 9/11 compared to what you believe, you are a misfit, or technically, your opinion is a "misfit" if that makes you feel better.
TAM
I will accept that. My point that people who believe oswald acted alone are also misfits still stands.
I have an interesting experiment for you.
As someone mentioned above, go to the mall this weekend. If you have any friends who believe Oswald DID act alone, take one with you. This is so they can help to ensure the experiment isn't tainted. On a card or sheet of paper, print the question,
"In the JFK assination, do you believe Oswald acted alone?"
Randomly ask 100 various types of people (young, old, minorities, housewives, etc) if they would mind answering a quick yes/no question for an experiment you're doing. If they say Ok then simply show them the card. Do not verbally ask the question as your tone could be an influence.
Then record the answers.
As an aside, when you get people who answer for you, show them a second piece of paper which says, "Do you believe 9-11 was an inside job?"
ONLY count the yes/no answers. If they say "I don't understand the question" or "I don't know" then ignore the answer.
Lastly, do NOT debate with anyone. If they answer "yes" to the first question or "no" to the second, do NOT reply with "you're kidding..." etc.
ETA: BTW, I'm guessing that a mall poll like this would actually be more favorable to your position(s) than if you were to conduct the same poll of people walking into your local grocery store, library, or post office.
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It depends upon the strength of that belief. Does the person who believes Oswald wasn't a lone gunman have any research with which to back up their belief, or did they just watch JFK one time?
Also, a belief in the JFK assasination conspiracy places no imperative for action upon the believer. It's fun. Lots of people in the shadows. ooooooo mysterious.
But a belief in the 911 conspiracy should place a duty upon the believer to actually go and bloody well do something about it. It's NOW! The perps are still in office!!
So, you ask a random sample of people if they believe the US government has told everything about 911 and they'll say "of course not!" because that's what we say when we want to show our credentials as free thinking cynics with no time for those greasy politicos in power (you know, the ones the majority of our fellow citizens voted for?). But ask them if that belief extends to the government being responsible for 911 and you'll get a very different response. And those who say "yes" to the govt being responsible, the next question should always be "So, what're you doing about it?".
Because, unlike JFK, 911 isn't fun. People still mourn, people accused of being liars are still alive, people accused of prostituting their professional ethics are still working in their specialist fields. This isn't some black&white grainy film from the late 60's, this is 6 years ago.
And if you seriously believe that your government is the murderer of 3000 of your fellow citizens and yet you carry on your life paying your taxes, working 9:00 to 5:00, and the sole extent of your action against this crime is to spend your nights on internet forum and chat rooms bitching about it, then you're a coward and a creep.
Not you, of course, Revolutionary91. You have a perfect excuse: your age.
And I'm not being condescending in saying that. You don't pay taxes or have a job to give up, or a house to sell. You're not in a position to take to the hills and put your life on the line to fight for what you believe.
But many of the people you associate with are in a position to do this. And yet they don't. Interesting, eh?
Think they really believe, or do you think that perhaps the lack of personal sacrifice, whether financial or bodily, might be an indication that deep down, they don't really believe the 911 fantasy either. They just get a kick talking about it.
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
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- Dec 27, 2006
- Messages
- 9,778
You just compared a professional workplace comprised of people with real-world experience and, I assume, an advanced education to... your high school.
High school is not the real world. Not even close.
I love this. It's almost as if you think you've learned everything there is to know; that what you believe now will hold true forever and change the world.
I honestly don't expect anything less from someone your age. All you've done is learn how to "sound" like an adult. Your beliefs and experiences are still that of a high school kid.
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Rev:
Also, if you conduct the study in the mall, as we have suggested, make sure next to each answer, you note the age, sex, etc... of the answerer, so you can obtain some demographic breakdowns.
As for highschool mimicing the real world...not a chance. I am only 36, so I can still remember highschool quite well. It does not, in any way I can think of, mimic the real world. Highschool is more comparable to a co-ed prison environment, than the real world...lol.
People grow up, and the alleged 65% that feel it was an inside job, will not be the same percentage once the testosterone and other hormones settle out...trust me.
TAM
Also, if you conduct the study in the mall, as we have suggested, make sure next to each answer, you note the age, sex, etc... of the answerer, so you can obtain some demographic breakdowns.
As for highschool mimicing the real world...not a chance. I am only 36, so I can still remember highschool quite well. It does not, in any way I can think of, mimic the real world. Highschool is more comparable to a co-ed prison environment, than the real world...lol.
People grow up, and the alleged 65% that feel it was an inside job, will not be the same percentage once the testosterone and other hormones settle out...trust me.
TAM