Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[Luminous]

I don't know. I think you should be able to do this by now. One posts a .gif here the same way as any still image. Try using the "Insert Image" button. This must always be a hyperlink, rather than a file on your hard drive.

Thanks William, I'll try that.

 

[Luminous]

Nope. The gif is 500.7kb it will only allow 47kb. I probably have to post it to a photo site and then attach it as a live link.

What's the purpose anyway? I haven't seen anything that resembles a true debate yet.

I don't mind considering what a true skeptic has to say as long as the skeptic also is open enough to sincerely consider the response. And if we have to, we can agree to disagree without disrespecting each other and move on to other topics and continue to debate. With a true skeptic there are none of the tactics which I listed earlier. Just a good and healthy dialog.

What I have been witnessing from many here is nothing more than immature school-yard tactics. It's chaos actually.

Thats my two cents anyway.

 

[William Parcher]

There was a time I posted regularly on BFF, but nothing recent.

Skeptics might want to know which BFF poster you were so that they can get an idea of your history of belief and advocacy.

We do have one thing in common, we both wish someone would produce a body. That is something I am personally frustrated about.

I might be the strangest BF skeptic you have ever encountered. This is because I hold two opposing wishes. I want Bigfoot to really exist because it would be a very interesting animal to add to the list of species on earth. But I also want it to not exist, because of my strong faith in the ability of humans to know about very large mammals that are living in the civilized world. This hope extends towards the scientific method of understanding the world that we live in. You see, if Bigfoot does exist, then the ways we have established of understanding the natural world and claims about it, are close to worthless. I don't sleep well with that notion. It's a personal thing, and I think it may ironically resemble a strong belief in Bigfoot. I think that people are happy and sleep best when their confidences are unchallenged. Yet each one of us decides which challenges are worthy of overthrowing our personal confidences.

Even some National Geographic quality pictures would be nice.

Something like this would be more than nice. They would be groundbreaking.

But as I posted earlier, I'm not sure how many TRUE skeptics are here. You seem to be able to conduct yourself in a mature manner. That's refreshing. Maybe there are some true skeptics here afterall...

I'm hesitant to agree with you based on your use of the term "true". As a true Bigfoot skeptic, I am truly skeptical that this creature exists outside of imaginations, legend, and promotion of that legend. Were you thinking (hoping) that a "true" BF skeptic is one who cuts a lot of slack for BF believers? I think I understand human nature a lot more than I understand the animal that is being proposed to exist.

Both of us are going to arrive at our deathbeds with a better understanding of what is going on with Bigfoot than we do now... no matter what the future situation may be.

 

[tube]

Deathbed!?

I'm afraid that this reminds me of UFO skeptic Phil Klass' infamous "UFO deathbed curse":

The Last Will and Testament of Philip J. Klass

To UFOlogists who publicly criticize me…or who even think unkind thoughts about me in private, I do hereby leave and bequeath THE UFO CURSE: No matter how long you live, you will never know any more about UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about UFOs that you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed you will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will remember this curse.

 

[William Parcher]

Nope. The gif is 500.7kb it will only allow 47kb. I probably have to post it to a photo site and then attach it as a live link.

I already told you that the only way to post still images and animated .gifs is by way of hyperlinks. These things must already exist somewhere on the internet before you can show them here. I had to open a PhotoBucket account to post my own favorite graphics. The "walking Patty" .gif I posted is 380KB. You can hyperlink to anything that already exists on almost any forum or posting site.

 

[kitakaze]

Anyone want a bet?

I bet no confirmation will come before September. In case of loosing, I shall use an "eating-the-crow" avatar untill kingdom comes. In case of winning, the oponents will have to use an avatar clearly written "there's no reliable evidence for bigfoot" untill reliable evidence is available.

Actually I proposed a much more challenging bet at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2732908&postcount=4974. Untill now, no one decided to take it. Not even the person who said confirmation will come in five or ten years.

A few suggestions:

Not bad, but I prefer this:

Or maybe with a little editing:

This is rather tempting as a regular avatar:

 

[William Parcher]

Deathbed!?

I'm afraid that this reminds me of UFO skeptic Phil Klass' infamous "UFO deathbed curse":

The Last Will and Testament of Philip J. Klass

To UFOlogists who publicly criticize me…or who even think unkind thoughts about me in private, I do hereby leave and bequeath THE UFO CURSE: No matter how long you live, you will never know any more about UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about UFOs that you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed you will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will remember this curse.

Wait a cotton-pickin' moment. This is bullcrap coming from a woo. Does he think that government employees are aliens too? Is this The Invasion of the Body Snatchers all over again? We should have learned by now that government people sing like canaries. Some extreme Bigfooters are so desperate to justify its existence that they will propose internal conspiracies that involve Feds knowing about (or possessing) Bigfoot while steadfastly remaining hush about it all. Ridiculous conspiracy theorists remind us all that any old belief in Bigfoot is not necessarily a typical train of thought. There has not yet been any study of the psychometrics of those who strongly believe in Bigfoot. It might turn out that a strong belief in Bigfoot is associated with other psychological indicators.

 

[LAL]

LAL - WRT the IM index. As others have noted, to calculate an accurate IM index you’d need measurements from an actual specimen/bones. The IM index of the “Bigfoot” in the Patterson film is only speculation and based on a single data source/set; there is no other credible evidence to compare it against.

I know that, but a good approximation can be made by measuring on Frame 72.

http://www.bfro.net/news/challenge/images/rearview.jpg

Napier estimated the IM index of the Minnesota Iceman from drawings and photos and came up with an IM index of 88. He thought both that and the figure in the PGF were a ridiculous mixture of human and ape. He was writing before the discovery of "Lucy". Australopiths showed the same ridiculous mixture.

As far as comparisons with other primates, you’ll note I argued against it. Again, without an actual specimen/bones or other credible physical evidence drawing parallels only interjects speculation and clouds the discussion.

Then there's no need for me to point out we don't look much like chimpanzees even though we're only a percent DNA away.

“Sightings” are frequently reported in the news….for example from “Bigfoot Sightings” (http://bigfootsightings.org/bigfoot-research/bigfoot-sightings/)31 MAR 07 a woman alone in the woods encountered a “Bigfoot” (no location given…though as she was walking and not hiking, this would suggest a non-remote area); [date not provided], sighting at Ft Bragg Calif (not a remote area), [date not provided] Highway 96, aka “Bigfoot Scenic Byway” multiple sightings.

Or say the ~2,947 reported sightings in the US and the ~ 207 in Canada, as taken from the BFRO Geographical Database of Bigfoot Sightings (http://www.bfro.net/GDB/).

US and Canada alone…all those sightings (most between 2000 – 2007) ranging from remote to populated areas, and no credible evidence; no additional footage, no still shots, no bodies or bones, etc. This simply seems inconceivable.

Dr. Fahrenbach's read about 10,000. John Green stopped collecting at about 4000. Many were backed up by physical evidence. The one that convinced me was, and it wasn't in a backyard.

Seen the recent cell phone vid yet?

 

[LAL]

What was Steindorf's height estimate again?

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=14316

I can't find where he ever gave one. The digitalized version shown in Meet the Sasquatch (it wasn't in LMS) was done to show what a hairless bigfoot might look like. Some features were a surprise, such as the high cheekbones. Nowhere do I see where it says it was done to scale, although the head was recontructed using several different methods..

The exact height doesn't matter; the IM index is a ratio and would be the same whether the figure was 7'3", 6'5" or 5'7".

 

[LAL]

What I have been witnessing from many here is nothing more than immature school-yard tactics. It's chaos actually.

Yes, usually, although sometimes they stop with the spitwads long enough to make an interesting point.

Just don't light any matches; you might set the strawmen on fire.

 

[LAL]

Pretty good blog, there, LTC. Whose is it?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

No. Why do you ask? Is there a picture I missed of Patty's doing this? I assume that's the reason you asked the question, am I correct?

I'll try this one more time..

I showed you where Patty's humongous right calf is not bisected by the Achilles tendon ...

But I'm sure you will fall back on the ' Bigfoot anatomy is different from anything we have had a chance to examine ' argument ..

Like I said, there is no point in discussing primate anatomy with you, since you obviously have little or no understanding of the morphology involved...

 

[Luminous]

Skeptics might want to know which BFF poster you were so that they can get an idea of your history of belief and advocacy.



I might be the strangest BF skeptic you have ever encountered. This is because I hold two opposing wishes. I want Bigfoot to really exist because it would be a very interesting animal to add to the list of species on earth. But I also want it to not exist, because of my strong faith in the ability of humans to know about very large mammals that are living in the civilized world. This hope extends toward the scientific method of understanding the world that we live in. You see, if Bigfoot does exist, then the ways we have established of understanding the natural world and claims about it, are close to worthless. I don't sleep well with that notion. It's a personal thing, and I think it may ironically resemble a strong belief in Bigfoot. I think that people are happy and sleep best when their confidences are unchallenged. Yet each one of us decides which challenges are worthy of overthrowing our personal confidences.



Something like this would be more than nice. They would be groundbreaking.



I'm hesitant to agree with you based on your use of the term "true". As a true Bigfoot skeptic, I am truly skeptical that this creature exists outside of imaginations, legend, and promotion of that legend. Were you thinking (hoping) that a "true" BF skeptic is one who cuts a lot of slack for BF believers? I think I understand human nature a lot more than I understand the animal that is being proposed to exist.

Both of us are going to arrive at our deathbeds with a better understanding of what is going on with Bigfoot than we do now... no matter what the future situation may be.

Thanks for sharing where you're coming from.

As far as cutting slack, that not what I mean at all. I guess what I'm trying to say that a true skeptic is honest about the evidence. They're honest enough to see that a bicep seems to be there. But they may come to a different conclusion as to what it is -- foam and rubber verses flesh and skin. They don't play the "I don't see it" game when something is blatantly staring them in the face. True skeptics don't call white black or black white just because they like being contrary. You can dialog with a true skeptic in a mature and stable fashion and you can learn from each other, and not get all riled up if someone disagrees. You can have an honest debate with a skeptic and actually be friends.

I'm currently friends with a skeptic who has major disagreements with my worldview, but I can talk about my belief system and she listens and even asks questions. I do the same with her, and I learn something new every time I'm with her. I've known her for over a year and we have never once fought. We go out to eat together all the time. I respect her belief system and she respects mine. My view sometimes challenges her and hers challenges mine. Yet we have had some fantastic conversations.

I don't see much of that here. I see a lot of attitudes and egos, arrogance and foolish games. You're really the first person I've met that doesn't seem to be caught up in the immaturity of these tactics and games.

I don't know if this is making sense or not, but this what I mean by using the word "true."

 

[Teresa.Hall]

If there's still time, please pick one of those:

(1) It is usually said that skeptics will only be satisfied with a specimen. Do you think this statement is true or the following types of evidence would receive a more than warm reception?
a. Good pictures or films obtained by people whose professional lives would be ruined if caught somehow involved in a hoax.
b. DNA assay pointing towards an unknown hominid or pongid genus.
c. Fossil remains of large North American apes from a time period roughly coincident with the megafauna or the arrival of the first human settlers.

(2) How do you see the reasonings about North American forests not being able to sustain a population of bigfoot-like animals?

(3) What do you think bigfoot enthusiasts/investigators must do to improve their work and be taken more seriously?

Thanks!

Oh I'm sorry about this. I didn't get this far into this thread until just now and the show is over. We'll have John back and I'll ask him those questions. I do apologize.

 

[tsig]

WTF are you supposed to be doing by posting all of this meaningless crap in this thread?

So you deny I was there!

Getting him into the suit was a hassle.

What are called "muscle ridges" are where we pulled on the cosume.

 

[Luminous]

I'll try this one more time..

I showed you where Patty's humongous right calf is not bisected by the Achilles tendon ...

But I'm sure you will fall back on the ' Bigfoot anatomy is different from anything we have had a chance to examine ' argument ..

Like I said, there is no point in discussing primate anatomy with you, since you obviously have little or no understanding of the morphology involved...

Well honestly, the anatomy could be different. We just don't know. And then again, it could be foam padding. I personally don't believe it is a costume for the reasons I already described. But when I look at my calf, it's not visibly bisected by the Achilles tendon like that jogger someone posted. My calf is overdeveloped from bike riding at a teen. It's shaped like Patty's, but it's nowhere near the size.

That comment about me not understanding the morphology involved is both ignorant and uncalled for. These are the very attitudes that prevent true debate from taking place here. You appear to think more highly of yourself than you ought. This is not wise or profitable for anyone.

 

[SweatyYeti]

Nope. The gif is 500.7kb it will only allow 47kb. I probably have to post it to a photo site and then attach it as a live link.

What's the purpose anyway? I haven't seen anything that resembles a true debate yet.

I don't mind considering what a true skeptic has to say as long as the skeptic also is open enough to sincerely consider the response. And if we have to, we can agree to disagree without disrespecting each other and move on to other topics and continue to debate. With a true skeptic there are none of the tactics which I listed earlier. Just a good and healthy dialog.

What I have been witnessing from many here is nothing more than immature school-yard tactics. It's chaos actually.

Thats my two cents anyway.

Want to see a "Jref special" debate, Luminous...
Here you go...

The following link goes to the start of a "debate" over whether or not Patty's fingers are actually bending in this 2-frame animated clip....or if it's just an illusion.

It begins with my post, #3680....

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70782&page=92

One would think it's obvious that the fingers are indeed bending.....but not so if one is a "skeptic" on Jref.


I heard that you heard that kitakaze is a real nice guy in real life....but here is a healthy dose of "real life kitakaze" for you to digest...in post #3251....

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70782&page=82


Enjoy!

 

[LTC8K6]

I know that, but a good approximation can be made by measuring on Frame 72.

Yes, but we skeptics know that's not true, and that's what we tell anyone who mentions it.

 

[Luminous]

I already told you that the only way to post still images and animated .gifs is by way of hyperlinks. These things must already exist somewhere on the internet before you can show them here. I had to open a PhotoBucket account to post my own favorite graphics. The "walking Patty" .gif I posted is 380KB. You can hyperlink to anything that already exists on almost any forum or posting site.

Yes you did mention something to that effect. I give honor to where honor is due. Thanks for the tip. I appreciate it.

 

[LTC8K6]

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig...

Is that wrong?

I kill myself...