More Fun with Homeopath Dana Ullman, MPH(!)

This is boring.

Where's Ullman ? I want to discuss "epitaxy" and thermodynamics.

the Kemist
 
It is sweet to know that I am missed...

I couldn't help but notice that Linda posted 3 links to replicated studies on the homeopathic treatment of influenza, and yet, no one here has the courage to acknowledge that these studies have confirmed the efficacy of a homeopathic medicine (Oscillococcinum) in the treatment of the flu. While I appreciated Linda's references, I couldn't help but notice that she provided NO positive words about the body of replicated studies (from 3 independent groups of researchers).

This is a common pattern here: You nitpick any (!) possible and even extremely minor problem with a clinical trial and make it seem that ANY minor problem is worthy enough to throw out the entire trial's information. Everyone here does all they can to NEVER acknowledge anything potentially positive about a trial testing homeopathy, unless it had a negative outcome.

Someone referred to Orac's critique of the CHEST study, and yet, this critique was so weak that it was surprising that CHEST chose to publish his "letter to the editor." However, because the authors replied to him (and blew his weak critique out of the water), I was pleased to see this in print. And yet, no one here acknowledged the incredible weakness of Orac's analysis.

You cannot have it both ways: you cannot be intellectually honest by applying your analysis to critique homeopathy unless you apply a similar level of analysis to the critique of the critique.

I just want some intellectual honesty...and sadly, I'm not getting it at this site.
 
Oliver Wendell Holmes...Intellectually Dishonest

Speaking of intellectual dishonesty, Dr. Oliver Wendell Holmes won the prize for this in the 19th century. Although skeptics of homeopathy at that time and even today (!) consider Dr. Holmes' book to be one of the strongest critiques of homeopathy ever written, I will be curious what the seemingly smart and seemingly hyper-vigilent participants at this site will say about his knowledge of and criticisms about homeopathy.

It is more than a tad ironic that you "defenders of the scientific paradigm" maintain such an unscientific attitude towards homeopathy. This is not a homeopathic dose of chutzpah...it is a very crude dose of it...read for yourself...


Oliver Wendell Holmes and His Attack on Homeopathy

The most famous anti-homeopathy book written in the 19th century was by Oliver Wendell Holmes, MD (1809-1894). Called Homoeopathy and Its Kindred Delusions, this book was written just six years after Dr. Holmes graduated from medical school. Before Holmes went to medical school, he authored a famous poem in 1830 called Old Ironside as well as two articles in 1832 and 1833 entitled Autocrat at the Breakfast Table (published in The Atlantic Monthly), which gave him a national reputation as a leading American writer and scholar.

Although Holmes had become a professor at Harvard Medical School and although he was a respected poet and author, he actually had very little direct experience practicing medicine before he wrote this attack on homeopathy. Dr. Holmes’ essay on homeopathy gained a lot of attention, and this book today is commonly referred to as a “strong” critique of homeopathy. However, this book should actually be a significant embarrassment to its author and to those who are seriously antagonistic to homeopathy because it is so full of obvious errors of fact, which authors today still quote as though this book was factual.

It is amazing to note, first, that Dr. Holmes wrote that the one physician who typifies the good American medical thinking and practice of that time was Benjamin Rush, MD (1745-1813), a signer of the Declaration of Independence and the surgeon general of the Continental Army. Dr. Rush was one of the leading advocates of “heroic medicine,” that is, the frequent and aggressive use of including bloodletting, intestinal purging (with mercury), vomiting (with the caustic agent tartar emetic), and blistering of the skin.

Dr. Rush recommended bloodletting for virtually every patient, and he considered it quackery if a physician did not bloodlet his patients. He even once boasted that he had drawn enough blood to float a 74-gun man-of-war ship (Transactions, 1882).

Rush was also an advocate of forced psychiatric treatment, which in part explains why his portrait is on the emblem of the American Psychiatric Association. One of Rush's favorite methods of treatment was to tie a patient to a wooden board and rapidly spin it until significant amounts of blood flowed to the head. He placed his own son in one of his insane asylum hospitals for 27 years until he died. Rush also believed that being black was a hereditary illness which he referred to as “negroidism.”

In addition to Dr. Holmes’ glorification of Dr. Rush’s heroic medicine, Holmes had the audacity to say that homeopathic medicine is “barbaric” because it uses various snake venoms (p. x). This statement is more than a tad ironic when you consider that one of Dr. Holmes’ most famous quotes was his own critique of conventional medical drugs when he said, “I firmly believe that if the whole materia medica (materials of medicine), as now used, could be sunk to the bottom of the sea, it would be all the better for mankind,--and all the worse for the fishes” (Holmes, 1860).

Dr. Holmes’ primary attack was on the extremely small doses that are used in homeopathic medicine. However, Dr. Holmes had seemingly never read a single book on homeopathy or had any meaningful dialogue with a homeopath because he committed a classic error of calculation. When a homeopathic pharmacy makes a medicine, they take one part of the original substance and dilute it in nine or 99 parts water (considered a 1:10 or 1:100 dilution); the glass bottle is then vigorously shaken approximately 40 times, and then, the medicinal solution is again diluted 1:10 or 1:100. Ultimately, to make a homeopathic medicine to the 30X or 30C (“X” is a Roman numeral for 10, and “C” means 100; the letter next to the number refers to the type of dilution), the total amount of water needed is 30 test tubes of water (considerably less than a simple gallon of water).

However, Dr. Holmes got his calculations confused, and he incorrectly assumed that the homeopathic manufacturer had to have 10 times or 100 times more water than in the previous dilution. Dr. Holmes estimated that the 9th dilution would require ten billion gallons of water and the 17th dilution required a quantity equal to 10,000 Adriatic seas. Dr. Holmes could have easily corrected his error if he had simply gone into one homeopathic pharmacy or had a simple short conversation with a homeopath. Sadly and strangely, Dr. Holmes and other conventional doctors of that age prided themselves on never talking with a homeopath. What is even more ironic is that Dr. Holmes arranged for the reprinting of this article in various books from 1842 to 1891 without changing a single word, despite this and numerous other errors of fact in his work.

Dr. Holmes explained in his book that the growth of homeopathy was primarily because conventional physicians tended to over-medicate their patients, even though Holmes later wrote that the public itself “insists on being poisoned” (Holmes, 1860, 186).

Dr. Holmes also attempted to “prove” that homeopathic medicines do not work by quoting a “scientific study.” To do this, Holmes referenced a “study” by a Dr. Gabriel Andral, professor of medicine in the School of Paris. Holmes referred to Andral “a man of great kindness of character…of unquestioned integrity.” Holmes reported on Andral’s experiment on 130-140 patients using homeopathic medicines, and Holmes quoted Andral saying, “not one of them did it have the slightest influence” (Holmes, 1842, 80).

Although Dr. Holmes and others have asserted that Andral’s experiment provided strong evidence for disproving homeopathy, it must be noted that later in his life, Andral himself acknowledged the serious problems in his study. Although Andral claimed to have used Hahnemann’s Materia Medica Pura as his guide, he neglected to mention at the time that the book was in German and that he could not read German. One other book by Hahnemann was translated into French at the time of this study, but Andral did not prescribe any of the 22 homeopathic medicines in this book for any patients in his study. Even Andral’s assistant for this study acknowledged that Andral did not know how to select homeopathic medicines for patients and that he “excuses his ignorance by saying it was unavoidable” (Dean, 2004, 112).

Additional evidence of Andral’s complete ignorance of homeopathy was revealed in a review of each of his prescriptions and his use of dosages. He never prescribed any homeopathic medicines for any patient’s unique syndrome of symptoms. Instead, he selected a single symptom of his own idiosyncratic choosing and then guessed at the medicine for it. For instance, his prescriptions of Arnica for one woman with painful menstruation and for one man with tuberculosis were guesses that were not based on any homeopathic textbook. Further, 75% of the patients were given just one dose of one remedy without any follow-up remedy (Irvine, 1844). If patients were not immediately cured by this one dose, he considered homeopathy a failure and then referred the patient for conventional medical treatment.
Andral later asserted that he had never formally granted anyone permission to publish his report on homeopathy, and further, by 1852 he had changed his mind about homeopathy and asserted that it deserved the closest examination by every physician (Dean, 2004, 112). Despite these facts, Dr. Holmes never changed a word of his essay on homeopathy to avoid misinformation.

When you consider that this book by Dr. Holmes was considered the best critique of homeopathy written in the 19th century, one must rightfully acknowledge that serious or sophisticated criticism of homeopathy at this time was neither rational nor accurate.

In 1861, Dr. Holmes finally confessed that homeopathy “has taught us a lesson of the healing faculty of Nature which was needed, and for which many of us have made proper acknowledgements” (Holmes, 1891, x, xiii-xiv). However, he still never instructed his publisher to change a word of his previous writings on homeopathy.
 
He's back! Yay! We can start playing again!

OK, first question. What the hell did that post have to do with anything? Seriously, no-one here has mentioned a book over 100 years old as proof of anything. I take it this means you have nothing to say about all the criticism actually presented in this thread? Kind of sad that the best you can do is attack something written by a dead guy over a century ago really.
 
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He's back! Yay! We can start playing again!

OK, first question. What the hell did that post have to do with anything? Seriously, no-one here has mentioned a book over 100 years old as proof of anything. I take it this means you have nothing to say about all the criticism actually presented in this thread? Kind of sad that the best you can do is attack something written by a dead guy over a century ago really.


Is it a chapter from his upcoming book?
 
Oh. Did you have a nice trip (or whatever)?

I wonder if anybody has the energy to compile a list of outstanding questions in this thread.

Wasn't the Oscillococcinum study dealt with somewhere? But yes, we do tend to nitpick homeopathy studies and reject them on even fairly minute details (not that one usually needs to resort to minute details), and I explained the reason to Manioberoi, earlier: Since homeopathy requires the rewriting of substantial parts of contemporary physics, biology, pathology, immunology, pharmacology, and a few other disciplines, it constitutes an extraordinary claim. Thus, it requires extraordinary evidence. Evidence extraordinary enough to counter the massive evidence in favor of all the mentioned disciplines.

To use an analogy, the claim for homeopathy is like a claim that a band of dinosaurs live in Central Park, NY. It would take more than a footprint to convince anybody of that.

Hans
 
He's back! Yay! We can start playing again!

OK, first question. What the hell did that post have to do with anything? Seriously, no-one here has mentioned a book over 100 years old as proof of anything. I take it this means you have nothing to say about all the criticism actually presented in this thread? Kind of sad that the best you can do is attack something written by a dead guy over a century ago really.


My subject was "intellectual dishonesty," and Holmes had in the 19th century, and this list is full of it today.

But heck, prove me wrong. Show some honesty. Acknowledge results from high quality clinical and basic science research whether it has a positive or negative outcome for homeopathy. Acknowledge that many principles of homeopathy have real merit. Acknowledge the several thousand studies by non-homeopaths test hormesis and other extremely low dose phenemona (at doses that are EXTREMELY commonly sold in health food stores and pharmacies today). And stop the total BS about the "high price" of homeopathic medicines (the vast majority are under $10!) or the "huge profits" that the homeopathic drug companies make (the total sales--not just profit--of the individual companies are LESS than the advertising budget of a single popular conventional drug).

In other words, GET REAL (this may be tough for some of you).

And yes...the info on Dr. Holmes is a part of the forthcoming book, and the references will be provided there.
 
Dr. Holmes’ primary attack was on the extremely small doses that are used in homeopathic medicine. However, Dr. Holmes had seemingly never read a single book on homeopathy or had any meaningful dialogue with a homeopath because he committed a classic error of calculation. When a homeopathic pharmacy makes a medicine, they take one part of the original substance and dilute it in nine or 99 parts water (considered a 1:10 or 1:100 dilution); the glass bottle is then vigorously shaken approximately 40 times, and then, the medicinal solution is again diluted 1:10 or 1:100. Ultimately, to make a homeopathic medicine to the 30X or 30C (“X” is a Roman numeral for 10, and “C” means 100; the letter next to the number refers to the type of dilution), the total amount of water needed is 30 test tubes of water (considerably less than a simple gallon of water).

However, Dr. Holmes got his calculations confused, and he incorrectly assumed that the homeopathic manufacturer had to have 10 times or 100 times more water than in the previous dilution. Dr. Holmes estimated that the 9th dilution would require ten billion gallons of water and the 17th dilution required a quantity equal to 10,000 Adriatic seas. Dr. Holmes could have easily corrected his error if he had simply gone into one homeopathic pharmacy or had a simple short conversation with a homeopath. Sadly and strangely, Dr. Holmes and other conventional doctors of that age prided themselves on never talking with a homeopath. What is even more ironic is that Dr. Holmes arranged for the reprinting of this article in various books from 1842 to 1891 without changing a single word, despite this and numerous other errors of fact in his work.

First, lets get this straight: nobody else has talked about Holmes. You're just trying to use him as a straw man. So there is no need for me or anyone else to defend all that Holmes wrote: for all I know he may have said all sorts of silly things.

But since you're trying to knock this straw man down, and you're putting him in your book, you should at least read what he really wrote. Holmes never actually assumed that the homeopathic manufacturer had to have 10 times or 100 times more water than in the previous dilution. He was fully aware of how homeopathic remedies were prepared, and the example using the comparison with 10,000 Adriatic seas was presented as an illustration, to help people grasp the idea of how little of the original substance was to be found in the remedy.

I quote Holmes (my bolding):

"So much ridicule has been thrown upon the pretended powers of the minute doses that I shall only touch upon this point for the purpose of conveying, by illustrations, some shadow of ideas far transcending the powers of the imagination to realize. It must be remembered that these comparisons are not matters susceptible of dispute, being founded on simple arithmetical computations, level to the capacity of any intelligent schoolboy. A person who once wrote a very small pamphlet made some show of objecting to calculations of this kind, on the ground that the highest dilutions could easily be made with a few ounces of alcohol. But he should have remembered that at every successive dilution he lays aside or throws away ninety-nine hundredths of the fluid on which he is operating, and that, although he begins with a drop, he only prepares a millionth, billionth, trillionth, and similar fractions of it, all of which, added together, would constitute but a vastly minute portion of the drop with which he began. But now let us suppose we take one single drop of the Tincture of Camomile, and that the whole of this were to be carried through the common series of dilutions.

A calculation nearly like the following was made by Dr. Panvini, and may be readily followed in its essential particulars by any one who chooses.

For the first dilution it would take 100 drops of alcohol.
For the second dilution it would take 10,000 drops, or about a pint.
For the third dilution it would take 100 pints.
For the fourth dilution it would take 10,000 pints, or more than 1,000 gallons, and so on to the ninth dilution, which would take ten billion gallons, which he computed would fill the basin of Lake Agnano, a body of water two miles in circumference. The twelfth dilution would of course fill a million such lakes. By the time the seventeenth degree of dilution should be reached, the alcohol required would equal in quantity the waters of ten thousand Adriatic seas. Trifling errors must be expected, but they are as likely to be on one side as the other, and any little matter like Lake Superior or the Caspian would be but a drop in the bucket."
 
My subject was "intellectual dishonesty," and Holmes had in the 19th century, and this list is full of it today.

Well, we know that homeopaths are fond of quoting 19th century writings, but you will excuse us if we prefer things a bit more recent.

But heck, prove me wrong. Show some honesty. Acknowledge results from high quality clinical and basic science research whether it has a positive or negative outcome for homeopathy.

Sure. Where is it?

Acknowledge that many principles of homeopathy have real merit.

Mention some.

Acknowledge the several thousand studies by non-homeopaths test hormesis and other extremely low dose phenemona (at doses that are EXTREMELY commonly sold in health food stores and pharmacies today).

Explain how hormesis is relevant to homeopathy.

And stop the total BS about the "high price" of homeopathic medicines (the vast majority are under $10!) or the "huge profits" that the homeopathic drug companies make (the total sales--not just profit--of the individual companies are LESS than the advertising budget of a single popular conventional drug).

10$ is a lot for a bottle of sugar tablets, in my opinion.

You comparison with conventional drugs is dishonest. You know quite well it doesn't make sense to compare two operations of vastly different size.

The profit margin for homeopathic drugs is high, because although the retail price is modest, the production cost is negligible, the quality and research costs non-existent.

In other words, GET REAL (this may be tough for some of you).

I suggest you keep a civil tone. We can play rough if you want, but you won't like it.

And yes...the info on Dr. Holmes is a part of the forthcoming book, and the references will be provided there.

Why should we care what Dr. Holmes wrote?

Hans
 
First, lets get this straight: nobody else has talked about Holmes. You're just trying to use him as a straw man. So there is no need for me or anyone else to defend all that Holmes wrote: for all I know he may have said all sorts of silly things.


Oh yeah...Holmes did say LOTS of extremely silly things, even if the physicians of his day thought he was totally rational and "absolutely" right. Just as this list is full of similarly silly statements made by people with little knowledge of homeopathy and NO experience with it.

Hahnemann's gravestone has the words: Aude sapere ...Latin for dare to be wise, to experience, to taste. He challenged skeptics to simply try or taste homeopathy...but heck, you'd rather be rational than be right.
 
My subject was "intellectual dishonesty," and Holmes had in the 19th century, and this list is full of it today.
... full of it ... does that include your post then?

Don't you like having your subject analysed? Are you worried that it can't actually stand up to a bit of scrutiny?

But heck, prove me wrong.
I'd rather you proved yourself right ...

Show some honesty. Acknowledge results from high quality clinical and basic science research whether it has a positive or negative outcome for homeopathy. Acknowledge that many principles of homeopathy have real merit.
I will happily acknowledge such results, if and when they are presented. Why will you not critically examine your positive results, why do you dismiss negative results? Are you being a hypocrite here?

Anyway, which principles of homoeopathy have real merit? Like cures like? Below Avogadro limit effects? There is absolutely no proof of the essential principles of homoeopathy. Data mining and poor experimentation is a great smoke screen to hide behind.

Acknowledge the several thousand studies by non-homeopaths test hormesis and other extremely low dose phenemona (at doses that are EXTREMELY commonly sold in health food stores and pharmacies today).
Low does - or no dose? Go look up your essential principles again.

Also, selling is no proof of efficacy. A scam is a scam. It does not matter if it is EXTREMELY commonly sold or not.

And stop the total BS about the "high price" of homeopathic medicines (the vast majority are under $10!) or the "huge profits" that the homeopathic drug companies make (the total sales--not just profit--of the individual companies are LESS than the advertising budget of a single popular conventional drug).
A scam is a scam - pure and simple. There is no such thing as a fair price for a scam. As such - homoeopathy is always over-priced. This cost also includes the uncounted people who do not get proper treatment when necessary because they followed the wishful thinking of a homoeopath. That is an incredibily high price in my opinion.

In other words, GET REAL (this may be tough for some of you).
Not constructive - but that's not why you are here ...

And yes...the info on Dr. Holmes is a part of the forthcoming book, and the references will be provided there.
So what is the problem with giving us a sneak preview of a few lines of references?
 
Homeopathy and Its Kindred Delusions. Oliver Wendell Holmes, 1842

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/holmes.html

A couple notes about literature:

1) Age does not mean something is wrong, or no longer useful. One must look to see if it has been rendered invalid by more recent work.

2) Any citation to poor-quality sources can be ignored. If it wasn't submitted to a high-quality medical journal, the author doesn't have any confidence in the work (or, it was unacceptable to a good journal). Any magazine with the name of some quack method (homeopathy, chiropractic, etc.) or with terms such as "alternative," "integrative," or "holistic" in the title is inferior (except- The Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine). (Above, I criticized a quack article they claimed supported homeopathy. Most quack articles are like that one.)

So, that sweeps-away most, favorable homeopathic citations. We are left with the question of how to deal with articles in good journals. I dare say most of us cannot (I recognize that there are some qualified clinicians here), except to note that none has enough subjects to be considered definitive.

I am holding out for a large study in a good journal, one that survives the scrutiny of qualified experts (and is certain not to be fraudulent).
 
Someone referred to Orac's critique of the CHEST study, and yet, this critique was so weak that it was surprising that CHEST chose to publish his "letter to the editor." However, because the authors replied to him (and blew his weak critique out of the water), I was pleased to see this in print.


References please. And links if it is availabe on the web, of course.

And an explanation of how the critique was "blown out of the water".

Nullius in verba.
 
Someone referred to Orac's critique of the CHEST study, and yet, this critique was so weak that it was surprising that CHEST chose to publish his "letter to the editor." However, because the authors replied to him (and blew his weak critique out of the water [in your imagination, JJM]), I was pleased to see this in print. And yet, no one here acknowledged the incredible weakness of Orac's (et al's) analysis.
The "letter to the editor" was from David Colquhoun.

I suppose you will be rendering an analysis of the weakness of Orac's analyisis.
 
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And stop the total BS about the "high price" of homeopathic medicines (the vast majority are under $10!) or the "huge profits" that the homeopathic drug companies make (the total sales--not just profit--of the individual companies are LESS than the advertising budget of a single popular conventional drug).

"Remedy Makers" sell for $395 each. Is that good value for money?

You could start by answering the following questions;

4. Can you tell us whether either of these machines works?

http://www.bio-resonance.com/elybra.htm

http://www.remedydevices.com/voice.htm

Bear in mind that the users of these machines rely on exactly the same anecdotal experience and fallacious post hoc reasoning that every other homeopath does. Are the homeopaths who use these machines right or wrong in thinking they work?

It's a very simple question and capable of a single-word answer.

I'll give you a new question just so you can show how well you understand the interpretation of clinical trial data;

9. I set a p-value for significance of 0.05 and run 100 trials. In no trial is the test substance distinguishable from the control. How many trials can I expect to show an apparent "effect" from my test substance?
 

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