Scientologists get Darwined

[Tumblehome]

Rag on the scientologists all you want, but you can bet they're feeling terrible about this. Now they won't be getting any more donations from the parents.

 

[Kerberos]

Rag on the scientologists all you want, but you can bet they're feeling terrible about this. Now they won't be getting any more donations from the parents.

Well the mother is still alive...

 

[gtc]

I really don't think you can argue for or against gun laws on the basis of this one incident.

On the one hand it shows that, even without guns, there are still plenty of ways to kill someone.

On the other hand it could have been worse if there were guns involved.

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Scientologist toasted on national radio

Check out the audio files here:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/10/1974901.htm

The interview with Cyrus Brooks has been cut - my wife heard the interview live, and states that Cyrus and the presenter (Virginia Trioli) had a much more aggressive discussion, where Virginia basically accused Cyrus of being complicit in the murders.

Article in the SMH here:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/scientologists-flat-earthers/2007/07/10/1183833476294.html

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[Kerberos]

I really don't think you can argue for or against gun laws on the basis of this one incident.

On the one hand it shows that, even without guns, there are still plenty of ways to kill someone.

On the other hand it could have been worse if there were guns involved.

You've never taken part in a gun debate thread before right?

 

[Cain]

WTF???? Gun laws? So, instead of stabbing her mother, father and sister, she could have gunned down the neighbour, the two guys in cars, the passerbys and the cops when they turned up to collect her.

You moron.

Whatev. If it was me I wouldn't even need a gun.

Me: What are you tryin' to do, Hon?
Her: *incoherent blathering in Aussie accent* "...Xenu...I have a deadly weapon..."
Me: That's not a deadly weapon. This is a deadly weapon. *unzips*

Shazzam, I'd cock-slap her into unconscious with a single blow.

I don't want to talk about guns. Too easy, been done before umpteen times.
GTC:

I really don't think you can argue for or against gun laws on the basis of this one incident.

But apparently we can make generalizations about Scientologists. Beck is a Scientologist. Beck. I once knew a second generation Scientologist, and she wasn't too badly ****ed up, at least not more than the "normal" person. All the crap they get for their nutty religion (or "religion," if you prefer) has always seemed all out of proportion to me. Their headquarters here in L.A. looks pretty schweet, too.

Zep:

...speculation is illegal now? Did I miss a memo?

Illegal? [/quote]

Oh, bah. I'm saying you might as well speculate about something relatively worthwhile.

 

[Lonewulf]

I'm more interested in scientology being full of harmful BS, than another useless gun control argument.

But apparently we can make generalizations about Scientologists.

Riiiiiight.

Mayhaps you should do some more research on Hubbard, what he said, and what his group does?

Disconnection? Fair Game? How they took over CAN (the Cult Awareness Network)? Individuals that have "died mysteriously"? The cult environment and how they keep their members ignorant? Then the slander, the libel, and the personal attacks and character assassination of certain individuals...

This isn't to mention the silliness of the beliefs themselves.

But let's go protect the nice cultists.

Beck is a Scientologist. Beck.

And Schindler and Werner Von Braun were members of the nazi party.

Argument from Authority = fallacy.

Their headquarters here in L.A. looks pretty schweet, too.

Ahhh, yes, the greatest indicator of whether or not a group is harmful or not: It has a good-looking building.

Such an intelligent and well-educated post!

 

[Kerberos]

But apparently we can make generalizations about Scientologists.

It's not a generalisation form a single example, it's a single example illustrating the dangers of what is in fact official Scientology doctrine.

On a related note here is another piece of scientology garb.. eh, doctrine:

http://www.scientology-boston.org/faq.htm
"Questions on Scientology

Does the Scientology religion have a concept of God?

Most definitely. In Scientology, the concept of God is expressed as the eighth dynamic-the urge toward existence as infinity, as God, or the Supreme Being. As the eighth dynamic, Scientology’s concept of God rests at the very apex of universal survival.

In his book, Science of Survival, L. Ron Hubbard wrote: “No culture in the history of the world, save the thoroughly depraved and expiring ones, has failed to affirm the existence of a Supreme Being. It is an empirical observation that men without a strong and lasting faith in a Supreme Being are less capable, less ethical, and less valuable to themselves and society .... A man without an abiding faith is, by observation alone, more of a thing than a man.”

Feel the love

This is a part of the standard FAQ for scientology I believe, since I found the exacts same question and answer on the Danish scientology homepage, only of cause translated.

 

[Cuddles]

Beck is a Scientologist. Beck.

What's a Beck?

 

[Cain]

Lonewulf, you're such a tool.

And Schindler and Werner Von Braun were members of the nazi party.

Argument from Authority = fallacy.

I'm pretty sure I was being sarcastic, so "mayhaps" this is the appeal to credulity fallacy. And really, do we have to bring up Nazis?

Ahhh, yes, the greatest indicator of whether or not a group is harmful or not: It has a good-looking building.

Such an intelligent and well-educated post!

Well, you completely destroyed my appeal to schweetness. I feel naked... and cold. Save me Scientology Jesus, Tom Cruise.


----------------------------

It's not a generalisation form a single example, it's a single example illustrating the dangers of what is in fact official Scientology doctrine.

The details so far (in this thread at least) have been rather sketchy up until now but everyone is quick to blame the Scientologists because it's easily reconciled with our belief system. As for Hubbard's comments, I don't see the hubbub. It's average B.S. at best. Scientologists are so marginal, insignificant, probably more so for all you people outside S. California. Something like 8% of the public has a favorable view.

 

[Lonewulf]

Lonewulf, you're such a tool.

Mature.

I'm pretty sure I was being sarcastic, so "mayhaps" this is the appeal to credulity fallacy.

Well, I apologize for the misunderstanding then. It was based on other ridiculous arguments that you've instigated in the past.

And really, do we have to bring up Nazis?

See this thread as to why I see them as analogous.

"The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the Tone Scale* from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered."

- L. Ron Hubbard, SCIENCE OF SURVIVAL, p. 170

Harmless little bunny rabbit, wasn't he?

Well, you completely destroyed my appeal to schweetness. I feel naked... and cold. Save me Scientology Jesus, Tom Cruise.

Yeah, I'm good like that.

The details so far (in this thread at least) have been rather sketchy up until now but everyone is quick to blame the Scientologists because it's easily reconciled with our belief system.

No, it's reconciled with THEIR belief system. It is official Scientology doctrine that psychological treatment = bad, and psychologists = SPs (Suppressed Persons), for starters. Once again, I recommend you do some research before you comment on Scientology.

As for Hubbard's comments, I don't see the hubbub. It's average B.S. at best.

Yes, this is "average B.S.":

"In any event, any person from 2.0 down on the Tone Scale should not have, in any thinking society, any civil rights of any kind, because by abusing those rights he brings into being arduous and strenuous laws which are oppressive to those who need no such restraints."

- L. Ron Hubbard, SCIENCE OF SURVIVAL, 1989 Ed., p. 145 [The "Tone Scale" is Scientology�s measure of mental and spiritual health.]



"There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the Tone Scale, neither one of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the Tone Scale by un-enturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes. The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow."

- L. Ron Hubbard, SCIENCE OF SURVIVAL, p. 170



"The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the Tone Scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered."

- L. Ron Hubbard, SCIENCE OF SURVIVAL, p. 170



"A Venezuelan dictator once decided to stop leprosy. He saw that most lepers in his country were also beggars. By the simple expedient of collecting and destroying all the beggars in Venezuela an end was put to leprosy in that country."

- L. Ron Hubbard, SCIENCE OF SURVIVAL, p. 171



"Unfortunately, it is all too often true that suppressors to a creative action must be removed before construction and creation takes place. Any person very high on the Tone Scale may level destruction toward a suppressor."

- L. Ron Hubbard, SCIENCE OF SURVIVAL, p. 159

Yes, but I'm sure scientology is full of nice cuddly people that don't follow Hubbard's word as law... wait, no, they do. Well, at least they don't pray to him... no, wait, they practically worship his image every day. Well, at least they don't pay heed to all of his words... no, wait, it's a REQUIREMENT for scientologists to read and listen to his diatribes and speeches again and again.

But yeah, the ADVOCATION OF OUTRIGHT GENOCIDE OF AN ENTIRE CATEGORY OF HUMAN BEINGS is "just average B.S.", I understand. Happens all the time.

Scientologists are so marginal, insignificant, probably more so for all you people outside S. California. Something like 8% of the public has a favorable view.

Well, ignoring the fact that 8% of the population (of what, exactly? California?) is still a significant chunk (10% of the population of the U.S. = 30 million people, you know...), yes, I agree, scientology is not a powerful force and doesn't promise to be.

Nonetheless, they dupe people in joining up, who are then encouraged to work practically for free, or are required to pay heavy donations that would make mormons blush.

They are a harmful organization that continue to enact harm on others, whether directly or indirectly. Anyone that had bothered to do even the slightest bit of research into them would have realized that.

I'd add that one does not need to have a significant population to pose any sort of danger.

A single madman could do amazing things. A small cult can do the same thing. It does not have to be a significant population for me to dislike them or perceive them as harmful. Nor do they have to threaten me directly for me to wish to see them gone.

Unlike you, I actually have empathy for individuals who are harmed. It does not have to be me for me to give a ****.

But I'm wondering how much of scientology you actually know about. Do you know about the Sea Org? Did you know the things Hubbard did to people aboard? Did you know about the Chain Locker**?

What else do you know about? I'm sure you know about Xenu and all of that, but do you know how the orgs operate? Did you know about disconnection? Ethics? How they conduct their e-meter "auditing"?





*The Tone Scale:

40.0 - Serenity +
4.0 - Enthusiasm
3.0 - Conservatism
2.5 - Boredom
2.0 - Antagonism
1.5 - Anger
1.1 - Covert hostility
1.0 - Fear
0.5 - Grief
0.05 - Apathy -

Apparently fear and grief is below "antagonism".

From what I've heard, homosexuality was around 1.1, but Hubbard struck that out as he changed his mind. Probably for PR reasons.

**Locker for the anchor, held up by a chain on a flimsy hook. Was cold, dark, and filled with rats. Children were thrown in there as well as adults, including a deafmute child to "cure" her.

 

[Flo]

The Daily Telegraph points out that a man with the same name as the dead father was a member of the Church's Honour Roll in 2002 but the Church is denying that it is the same man.

Same line the far right political parties use when one of their members is caught red handed committing some crime directly inspired by their ideology ("we don't know the man", "he renounced his membership one week prior to committing the crime", "what he did is totally opposed to our values. We therefore don't consider him a member anymore/threw him out upon hearing of his arrest") ...

 

[Cain]

No, it's reconciled with THEIR belief system. It is official Scientology doctrine that psychological treatment = bad, and psychologists = SPs (Suppressed Persons), for starters. Once again, I recommend you do some research before you comment on Scientology.

Oh, so we'll give the Abbott & Costello routine a rest and now I'm going to play Matt Lauer to your Tom Cruise. "Cain, Cain, Cain, Cain, Cain, Cain: You haven't done the research... I have." I read the article in _Rolling Stone_ published a little while back, watched the fourth season of NIP/TUCK (I'm winking), and so I don't need to be sold on the silliness of Scientology (more alt+f4, less ctrl+c/v, please). I'm also not quite ready to leap to conclusions based on tentative, sketchy details, nor do I think whatever occurred matters one way or the other. Finally, I deliberately and cautiously chose the word "our."

Harmless little bunny rabbit, wasn't he?

At their current rate it would probably take the Church of Scientology tens of thousands years to amass the body count of the Catholic Church. It's all a matter of keeping things in perspective.

Well, ignoring the fact that 8% of the population (of what, exactly? California?) is still a significant chunk (10% of the population of the U.S. = 30 million people, you know...), yes, I agree, scientology is not a powerful force and doesn't promise to be.

I don't remember the wording of the poll exactly, but Scientology had 8%, way, way below Islam. It did not mean that eight percent are interested in learning more about Scientology. Maybe this is one of those things where it helps if you've actually met a Scientologist, you know, like interacting with Blacks, Muslims, or teh gays. Yes, teh gays. I recently discovered someone who I've known in teh online for awhile is actually a Moonie. It's all a load of crap, but these people are not insanely ****ed up.

Unlike you, I actually have empathy for individuals who are harmed. It does not have to be me for me to give a ****.

Uh-huh.

But I'm wondering how much of scientology you actually know about. Do you know about the Sea Org? Did you know the things Hubbard did to people aboard? Did you know about the Chain Locker**?

I admit I do not actively search for information regarding Scientology. That time could be spent memorizing Britney Spears lyrics. So, with respect to the questions: Yes, vaguely; probably not; no.

Now, my question, and I only have one. Do you know if the people murdered -- the ones harmed, triggering an outpouring of your characteristic empathy -- were doctrinaire Scientologists?

 

[Lonewulf]

Oh, so we'll give the Abbott & Costello routine a rest and now I'm going to play Matt Lauer to your Tom Cruise. "Cain, Cain, Cain, Cain, Cain, Cain: You haven't done the research... I have." I read the article in _Rolling Stone_ published a little while back, watched the fourth season of NIP/TUCK (I'm winking), and so I don't need to be sold on the silliness of Scientology (more alt+f4, less ctrl+c/v, please).

Joking or not, I'm entirely sure that I'm unamused.

I'm also not attacking psychiatry or psychology and writing it all off without adequate evidence, like Cruise was.

I'm also not quite ready to leap to conclusions based on tentative, sketchy details, nor do I think whatever occurred matters one way or the other. Finally, I deliberately and cautiously chose the word "our."

So, her parents were members of a group that specifically has set itself up against psychiatry, medication, etc... and... you think that it's "leaping to conclusions" to say that scientology influenced the incident?

Uh huh.

At their current rate it would probably take the Church of Scientology tens of thousands years to amass the body count of the Catholic Church. It's all a matter of keeping things in perspective.

Irrelevant.

For one, Jesus never actually called for genocide. Hubbard did.

For two, the churches today are no longer for committing genocide. Scientology, if it took control (which isn't likely, admittedly), is under DIRECT COMMAND to.

It's a matter of keeping it in perspective. Scientology is a harmful organization that does not promise to provide any benefit whatsoever.

I don't remember the wording of the poll exactly, but Scientology had 8%, way, way below Islam. It did not mean that eight percent are interested in learning more about Scientology.

Irrelevant. The poll does not affect my opinions on scientology, nor does it affect my dislike for them.

Maybe this is one of those things where it helps if you've actually met a Scientologist, you know, like interacting with Blacks, Muslims, or teh gays. Yes, teh gays. I recently discovered someone who I've known in teh online for awhile is actually a Moonie. It's all a load of crap, but these people are not insanely ****ed up.

Knowing individuals in scientology is irrelevant. I recognize the average member as not knowing many of the details of scientology, and I recognize that they are often required by their church to continue contributing to what is essentially a pyramid scheme.

It is scientology's leaders (including Hubbard, though he's long dead) that most get up my ire. Knowing an individual scientologist would do nothing to clear up the reputation of the Church of Scientology, and it would do nothing to wipe out their record and their promises for the future.

Further, much of the information that is provided is provided by long-time ex-scientologists, that went up high on the CoS ranks. One other thing that you seem to be missing: Scientology is very tiered, very structured, with ranks. They trickle information to members, leaving most of the information for the high OT levels (which occur after reaching "clear")

OT 3 is the "Wall of Fire", and after much sleep deprivation and forced labor, THEN it's revealed to the individual the "secret stuff", the Xenu bull. This isn't some thing that you just sign up for and get a nice little card and attend little church meetings. Scientology becomes part of your life, including scientology schools. Oh, and one thing about that: Scientology schools don't teach worth ****. If you get out of scientology, you'll have to retake real schools all over again for all of the things you learn in scientology schools.

I admit I do not actively search for information regarding Scientology. That time could be spent memorizing Britney Spears lyrics. So, with respect to the questions: Yes, vaguely; probably not; no.

Ah hah.

So you aren't that familiar with church doctrine, and what the Church of Scientology officially instigates and attempts to do?

Anyways, to answer the questions I asked (I asked more than what you quoted, but I understand not wanting to get an entire lecture):

Sea Org is one of the most elite organizations in Scientology, even to today. They sailed aboard ships that Hubbard had bought out. Members aboard were basically treated as slaves; paid nothing for free work, practically (including Hubbard's wife). They sailed on international waters doing... rather... morally ambiguous things. The leaders, that is. This was a while ago, decades ago, nothing recent; but I just want to give you perspective as to what you are actually defending.

See, in scientology, there are "upstats" and "downstats", based on the Tone Scale (unless I am mistaken here). Someone that's too much a "downstat" is heading towards Suppressive Person level. They need to be corrected, usually through punishment and 24 hours straight of "free work", or 48 hours straight, deeper down the downstat levels.

Those locked in the chain locker were part of the sentence. Some of them were locked in for hours, some days. The deafmute child I mentioned in the footnotes was kept in for several days, forgotten by Hubbard. She was put in there to CURE HER of her deafmuteness.

The chain locker was cold, wet, and filled with rats. The anchor was held up by a single hook which could slip practically at any time. When it did, the locker became a meat grinder. One man barely avoided getting shredded when the anchor fell. It was a very dangerous place to be.

And a deafmute child was locked in for DAYS. There were other cases where children were put in, though it was much more common to store the grown-up scientologists in it.

Hubbard is the man that everyone follows the word of in Scientology. Everything is based on what he said, in memos, books, audio, whatever.

Now, my question, and I only have one. Do you know if the people murdered -- the ones harmed, triggering an outpouring of your characteristic empathy -- were doctrinaire Scientologists?

In this particular case, I don't know. However, even if they aren't officially part of the Church of Scientology (which they should be from all that I know; I'm willing to be corrected on this issue), they're still basing their beliefs on the word of Hubbard, who was demonstrably a pathological liar. And there is STILL the issue of medication = bad in Hubbard's words. You can't avoid it. Psychotherapy = bad. Medication = bad. It's Hubbard's words. Scientology is nothing without Hubbard. Do you get it?

In other cases...

The one that was thrown in a chain locker was done so on The Commodore's flagship. (The Commodire = L. Ron Hubbard). A deafmute child, thrown in, to "cure" her. Was Hubbard and his crew "indoctrinated scientologists"? Well, ****ing d'uh. It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. It wasn't murder, but it was certainly "not good".

One girl that was forced into a hotel room to dehydrate to death was a member of scientology, told to do such under scientology orders.

 

[Cain]

Lonewulf: You are unbelievably dense.

My question relates directly to thread topic: Do you know if the Scientologists murdered -- the ones who were stabbed to death, this week, in Australia. Yeah, those Scientologists, not the on the couple stabbed to death Holland. Do you know if they were doctrinaire true believers?

I am aware of the Church's hierarchy, how it is pyramid scheme, and some of their nuttier beliefs. You're like the old man down the street who will take any opportunity to relate whatever is going on to his favorite bugaboo. Worse, I've heard this same story before.

So, her parents were members of a group that specifically has set itself up against psychiatry, medication, etc... and... you think that it's "leaping to conclusions" to say that scientology influenced the incident?

As a factor, sure. People here suggesting a monocausal explanation.

 

[Lonewulf]

Lonewulf: You are unbelievably dense.

Mature.

My question relates directly to thread topic: Do you know if the Scientologists murdered -- the ones who were stabbed to death, this week, in Australia. Yeah, those Scientologists, not the on the couple stabbed to death Holland. Do you know if they were doctrinaire true believers?

Read my post. I edited it. Towards the bottom.

I am aware of the Church's hierarchy, how it is pyramid scheme, and some of their nuttier beliefs. You're like the old man down the street who will take any opportunity to relate whatever is going on to his favorite bugaboo. Worse, I've heard this same story before.

Mature.

As a factor, sure. People here suggesting a monocausal explanation.

Is there any reason not to?

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Rag on the scientologists all you want, but you can bet they're feeling terrible about this. Now they won't be getting any more donations from the parents.

Oh, how little you know Scientology. They will have been lining up the mother to pay for more and more stuff from the moment they heard of it. They will be eagerly checking out how much of an insurance policy there is.

I wish I was joking - alas, I'm not.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Now, my question, and I only have one. Do you know if the people murdered -- the ones harmed, triggering an outpouring of your characteristic empathy -- were doctrinaire Scientologists?

Yes, they were.

So was Ellie Perkins, murdered last year by her son - stabbed to death. Ellie was a VERY dedicated Scientologist, and well trained in its stuff. She tried every "alternate" acceptable therapy to try and handle her son. Everything except the psychiatric medication he needed.

This is far from the first catastrophe engendered by Scientology 'belief'.

 

[scratchy]

Apparantly the SC denies that the murdered father is the same person as the one on their official honor list. Thats a fact which must be easy to check out. Just find the other man.

 

[Jimbo07]

Is there any reason not to?

...don't... want... to... agree with Cain... but,

There almost always is. Does the "video games are responsible for murder X," refrain sound familiar? I think Cain, in a belligerent way, is saying that we don't have all the facts, and can't ascribe a direct causal link.

That doesn't mean it WASN'T the case, though. There is enough documented misery surrounding Scientology to oppose them.