Religious Book Exchange

[RandFan]

Technically, not really, because it isn't grammatical. It's sort of a pseudo-Elizabethan version, almost as if a 19th century fellow with no real knowledge of archaic grammar was trying to imitate the language of the King James Bible.

Ok, so Joseph Smith didn't speak in that dialect and the authors of the BOM didn't either. So why is it translated that way?

I actually know the explanation.

"The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall be one in thine hand. And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not show us what thou meanest by these? Say unto them, Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions, and I will put them with him, even the stick of Judah, and they shall be one in mine hand." --Ezekiel 37:15-19

"And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust." Isaiah 29:4

So, the BOM is a history of the tribe of Joseph and it has a familiar spirit.

Translating the BOM to read in similar style to the translation of the Bible gives it that familiar spirit. Joseph Smith was fulfilling the prophecy.

 

[RandFan]

1. How and where was the exact design for them decided?
2. What is the rationale for them?
3. Are they still required today? (I think so.)
4. Are there situations where they are not required to be worn?

1.) Not certain exactly but religious under garments are not a Mormon invention.
2.) Adherents perspective: Protection against physical and spiritual harm. Leaders perspective: Control.
3.) Yes.
4.) Doctor's office. Beach. Fornicating.

 

[RandFan]

Here's a link to the main page over there about DNA: http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai195.html

There are many other topics addressed over there also. You can either use the search functionality or just poke around.

"That's the beauty of argument, if you argue correctly, you're never wrong." Nick Naylor:

Fairlds is interesting but the claims simply don't stack up against the facts. Most importantly, no one from the Mormon church was saying then what FAIR is saying now.

 

[RandFan]

1)

God (a being for which we lack evidence) sent an angel (for which we lack evidence) to lead Joseph Smith to the gold plates (for which we lack evidence). God then gives Smith the magical power to translate an unknown ancient language (fwwle*) on the plates (which few ever see, and which are long since "lost") to English. It tells of a migration of Hebrews to America (fwwle) and tells of the kingdoms they established (fwwle) and the battles they fought (fwwle). Some people, upon reading this translated story, get a warm and fuzzy feeling, which we are told proves that it's true.​

OR


2)

Joseph Smith lied.​

Hopefully you can understand the problem we have being open to the possibility that the story is true.

* I got tired typing "for which we lack evidence"

Bear in mind that Joseph Smith was convicted of fraud also.

Subject: Mormonism: A Racket Becomes a Religion

In March 1826 a court in Bainbridge, New York, convicted a twenty-one-year-old man of being “a disorderly person and an impostor.” That ought to have been all we ever heard of Joseph Smith, who at trial admitted to defrauding citizens by organizing mad gold-digging expeditions and also to claiming to possess dark or “necromantic” powers.

 

[Tanstaafl]

Thanks RandFan. And yes I was aware of Smith's conviction, but I didn't bring it up because I couldn't remember exactly what he was convicted of, though I was pretty sure it was in regards to his "treasure finding" ability.

 

[rcronk]

tanstaafl - You can find more detail about garments here and here. If you have any other questions after that, let me know.

Bear in mind that Mormon men, women, and children were harassed, tarred and feathered, murdered, and chased from their homes several times by mobs, and an execution order was given against them during the time of the aforementioned conviction. Taking that conviction out of its context is misleading.

I'm not here to argue, and I ask that the rest of you refrain as some of us here are trying to learn and run an experiment to gain knowledge. If you're not interested in running this experiment, please take the arguments elsewhere.

 

[Tanstaafl]

tanstaafl - You can find more detail about garments here and here. If you have any other questions after that, let me know.

Bear in mind that Mormon men, women, and children were harassed, tarred and feathered, murdered, and chased from their homes several times by mobs, and an execution order was given against them during the time of the aforementioned conviction. Taking that conviction out of its context is misleading.

I'm not here to argue, and I ask that the rest of you refrain as some of us here are trying to learn and run an experiment to gain knowledge. If you're not interested in running this experiment, please take the arguments elsewhere.

Thanks for the links, I'll check those out.

As far as the "context" of Smith's conviction, that is irrevelevant. The conviction occured well before the start of Mormonism.

There's certainly no question that terrible things were done to the first mormons in the early days.

 

[rcronk]

I disagree that this context is irrelevant since it provides a look into the vigilante- and witch-hunt-style mentality that was present, allowed, and even endorsed by the government at that time.

 

[Tanstaafl]

Okay.

But to me a mob reaction to a new and different (and therefore frightening) religion is a far cry from a simple criminal offense.

 

[rcronk]

There were also pressures about the Mormons' views against slavery and their increasing numbers threatening to put the slave supporters in the minority in local politics. Many other factors were in play at the time also. Again, perhaps we can take this discussion elsewhere as this is becoming thread drift.

 

[RandFan]

Bear in mind that Mormon men, women, and children were harassed, tarred and feathered, murdered, and chased from their homes several times by mobs, and an execution order was given against them during the time of the aforementioned conviction. Taking that conviction out of its context is misleading.

The conviction came long before any of the events you mention. It is not even plausible deniability.

I'm not here to argue, and I ask that the rest of you refrain as some of us here are trying to learn and run an experiment to gain knowledge. If you're not interested in running this experiment, please take the arguments elsewhere.

I think it appropriate to explain to you why the experiment is likely doomed from the start. We could carry out the same experiment for the story of the three blind mice but perhaps we should understand up front why we should consider that it is likely just fiction.

 

[RandFan]

I disagree that this context is irrelevant since it provides a look into the vigilante- and witch-hunt-style mentality that was present, allowed, and even endorsed by the government at that time.

The conviction (1826) was prior to any persecution.

Chronology of church history.

 

[rcronk]

My points were to show that throwing Joseph Smith under the bus because of a conviction without thoroughly looking at the events, culture, and general environment of that time period (these issues of prejudice and lawlessness affect the issue regardless of whether they happened before or after the conviction - they all happened once he started telling people of his experiences in 1820) that might have effected that conviction is not justified. I'm sure we'd all protest if we were thrown under the bus so easily and without consideration of all of the facts and aggravating and mitigating circumstances involved.

Again, if you're interested in running the experiment, please pick a book and begin. If not, please start another thread.

 

[kmortis]

Technically, not really, because it isn't grammatical. It's sort of a pseudo-Elizabethan version, almost as if a 19th century fellow with no real knowledge of archaic grammar was trying to imitate the language of the King James Bible.

However, I digress. This is actually an interesting thread, and I probably shouldn't derail it with minor quibbles about the likely history of the origin of the Book of Mormon. It seems that the real point is that holy books tend to have common themes. I may even try to find a suitable book and participate in a nearly sincere way on this thread.


If I do, I think I'll choose the Havamal.

Ok, here ya go... WOuld you like the rest of the Eddas?

 

[rcronk]

ryokan - have you had a chance to look at the questions I asked while you were gone:

Ryokan - When you get back, I'll need some help on the next section of the Dhammapada. In the context of this section, how exactly do you define "heedfulness"?

 

[RandFan]

My points were to show that throwing Joseph Smith under the bus because of a conviction without thoroughly looking at the events, culture, and general environment of that time period (these issues of prejudice and lawlessness affect the issue regardless of whether they happened before or after the conviction - they all happened once he started telling people of his experiences in 1820) that might have effected that conviction is not justified. I'm sure we'd all protest if we were thrown under the bus so easily and without consideration of all of the facts and aggravating and mitigating circumstances involved.

We are trying to explain why there is so much to overcome to plausibly accept that the BOM could be true. It isn't just Smiths conviction which can't be simply swept aside but an entire list of serious problems.

I didn't leave Mormonism because I didn't want to be a Mormon. On the contrary. I was active and invested much time and money including a mission. I left the church because it didn't stand to reason.

Again, if you're interested in running the experiment, please pick a book and begin. If not, please start another thread.

I ran the experiment. Like social scientists predicted I came to believe that god told me that the BOM was true and based on that I served a two year mission. Just as people in other sects and religions receive witness to the truthfulness of their beliefs.

Let's at least understand this experiment from a scientific POV. Fair enough?

 

[rcronk]

Fair enough. I'm sorry that you, according to what you have said, convinced yourself that it was true instead of the Holy Ghost convincing you that it was true. I think that's the difference that I see between our experiences. I have had both types of experiences in my life and I can tell you that the latter is nothing like the former at all. And until I had the latter experience, I would have thought that the former was real. So I can see how people can get confused.

I think you've made a very important point. Let me quote a part of the Doctrine and Covenants and the bible that explains this phenomenon a little more precisely so people don't get confused:

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me. 8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. 9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong

And from the bible:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance

These descriptions match what I experienced but they are also accompanied by a knowledge that the experience is coming from outside of me and absolute truth flowed into me. It's difficult to explain but you'll know it when it happens just as I did. Through this, I know that the Book of Mormon contains the word of God and that God exists and knows and loves each one of His children (that's all of us), and that Jesus Christ is our savior and understands everything each one of us is going through, and that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. I received these specific testimonies one at a time over several years of searching for the truth and honestly wanting to know the answers to my questions.

Gaining a testimony of God or of the Book of Mormon or the Bible is an individual thing, not a group thing - that's how it was designed, so that nobody else can do it for you, you have to do it for yourself. And the result you get includes a reflection of your own self (i.e. if you're dishonest, honest, selfish, generous, etc. these things will impact your ability to get an answer) - which is also a source of confusion based on each person. There are other things that work like this such as knowing that you love your kids, but you can't prove it or acquire that knowledge through the scientific method, only through your own experience.

 

[Tanstaafl]

It will be difficult for you to find anyone here who thinks any emotional experience, regardless of how strong, or what sort of feeling is involved, is proof of anything external to ourselves.

 

[rcronk]

That may be true and that was also what I thought until I actually had the experience and now I cannot deny that it is more than simply an emotional experience. I was atheist before that.

 

[cyborg]

That may be true and that was also what I thought until I actually had the experience and now I cannot deny that it is more than simply an emotional experience.

You should go out and take a wide variety of psychotropic drugs before assuming that deities are required for any awe inspiring feelings you may have had.

I was atheist before that.

Ah, I see. One of us. The logic must be then that the same would happen to these atheists upon reading the BoM.

FLAWLESS! Except I have pointed out to you numerous times the heterogeneous nature of people.