The 9/11 Conspiracy Facts

I will repeat- using an ethnic slur (i.e. that Afghans are inherently, culturally dishonest, thus we cannot believe any of them) is of zero value to a serious argument.

How do you know it's a slur and not a fact if you don't verify the information ?

Now who does this come from...oh yeh, you! 3 lines down!

Isnt this incredible? No matter how hard you guys try, you cannot even begin to hide your bigotry.

I submit, mjd, that you have problems reading the English language. Either that, or with logic. To equate "if it comes to going against their culture, they will lie if need be" with "Afghans have a cultural code of dishonesty" is a shocking example of deficient reading ability. Honestly, I think you should take courses, if you're going to continue interacting and debating with people.

Right, well if this is the case, please tell me for starters how/why you accept unfailingly, the word of the State Dept in possibly the most overtly corrupt and mendacious administration in US history

I do believe this is called poisoning the well.
 
No, because they are not mutually exclusive details, as explained to you, but as you refuse to address.

Incidentally, isnt it interesting how easy you find it to question to credibility of Mohabbat; yet you find no such difficulty in questioning Bush's State dept.

It is not merely "Bush's State Dept."; Mohabbat's version runs counter to Clinton State Department officials (Madeline Albright - Secretary of State), NSC officials (Sandy Berger), Richard Clarke, and of course Bill Clinton himself. How vast is this conspiracy again? :rolleyes:
 
Right, well if this is the case, please tell me for starters how/why you accept unfailingly, the word of the State Dept in possibly the most overtly corrupt and mendacious administration in US history, when it contradicts independent, expert insider testimony? Back to the subterfuge; in any other situation you would think twice before you believe a word that comes out of any of their mouts, but when it comes to 911, you appear so unwilling to swallow anything that may lead towards an unpalatable truth, that you believe them unquestioningly. Why is this?

I'm sorry, which administration's State Department are you talking about again? Clinton or Bush? Because both administrations contradict Mohabbat's version.
 
You still seem to believe that the Taliban had the ability to "hand Bin Laden over" to the US.

How could they have done this? He wasn't living by himself in a suburban bungalow, he was being protected by his own army.

Even if the Taliban wanted to hand him over I doubt that anyone negotiating with them believed that they could.

If the Taliban had given the US target coordinates for a cruise missile strike, there was no guarantee that Bin Laden would be there when the missile arrived.

The negotiators obviously decided that the Taliban were not negotiating in good faith. What makes you think that you know more about it than they did?

Interestingly, Richard Clarke wrote the following in his Strategy for Eliminating the Threat from the Jihadist Networks of al Qida: Status and Prospects (December 2000)
"The Afghan Northern Alliance is engaged in civil war with the Taliban. Al Qida has been a major source of the Taliban's success, providing the best fighting unit (the 55th Brigade) and literally buying the support of provincial leaders."

Other statements agree with this assessment: the best unit in the Taliban's army came from Al Qaeda. Quite an incentive not to hand over bin Laden...not only could they probably not do it, but they would almost certainly lose their most effective fighting force - or even worse, have it turn against them.

(Strangely enough, Richard Clarke's memo makes NO MENTION of the Taliban offer to hand over bin Laden....hmmmmm.....:confused: .....oh that's right, BECAUSE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN....:p )
 
Been gone a few days, but I had to respond to this.
(Response to Lapman)

LMAO!!

Great gag, another intrepid truth seeker we have on this thread.

Just to show how ridiculous your point is, who the f@$k has heard of Kabir Moabbat?
Did you bother to read your own link? Kabir is the one that claims to have brokered the deal.
In a lengthy interview and in a memorandum Kabir Mohabbat has given us a detailed account and documentation to buttress his charge that the Bush administration could have had Osama bin Laden and his senior staff either delivered to the US or to allies as prisoners, or killed at their Afghan base.
and let's not forget:
At this point the US State Department called Mohabbat and said the government wanted to retain his services, even before his official period on the payroll, which lasted from November of 2000 to late September, 2001, by which time he tells us he had been paid $115,000.

So, why is my claim ridiculous?
 
Your ugly bias is showing again. Anyway, I have yet to see any credible evidence from a non-bias source that confirm Mohabbat's claims. Why do you take his story with absolute faith? You don't need to answer that I know why.

His claims are supported by documentation which, though we do have not seen, is confirmed by 2 of the most reputable journalists in the US, to be valid support of his claims. In the absence of anything that would seriously exclude the possibility of his claims being true, there is no reason not to believe so.

In addition, as I have said, your colleagues have already propounded the argument that he was offered to be tried in Saudi, by a US weighted court; thus almost certainly sending him one way. This is congruent with the Taliban's actions here, and is also, awaiting an explanation from you lot as to why it was refused.

Your right. except I have the ability to look at things with an open mind. I can weigh information for what it is. If you can show me ONE piece of credible information that isn't spawned from hate and paranoia I'll look.

Hate and paranoia? What the hell are you talking about?

So far I've seen no reason to take the PNAC for anything more than face value. Your lack of compelling argument has done nothing to change this view. All your information is old hat. Your generous use of the thesaurus does not change the facts.

Ok good, we can do this. If you are serious about this debate, which very few of your ilk are, evidently, return to post 493, and contest it (given that you have mentioned PNAC). This post has not been seriously contested by anyone, despite multiple exhortations, and it was ~1200 posts ago. Maybe, my open minded friend, you can deduce why this would be the case.
 
How do you know it's a slur and not a fact if you don't verify the information ?

for the same reason I do not need to check with lots of Jewish people to verify that they are not all money grabbing and avaricious; or indeed any pejorative description that would apply to an entire ethnicity, race or nationality. This is called racism, and it should not really be tolerated.

I submit, mjd, that you have problems reading the English language. Either that, or with logic. To equate "if it comes to going against their culture, they will lie if need be" with "Afghans have a cultural code of dishonesty" is a shocking example of deficient reading ability. Honestly, I think you should take courses, if you're going to continue interacting and debating with people.

Well, thanks for the point, but since there is little substance, I cant really offer a reply

I do believe this is called poisoning the well.

Ok.
 
It is not merely "Bush's State Dept."; Mohabbat's version runs counter to Clinton State Department officials (Madeline Albright - Secretary of State), NSC officials (Sandy Berger), Richard Clarke, and of course Bill Clinton himself. How vast is this conspiracy again? :rolleyes:
Oh really? Please show where such information has been discredited by such people.
 
Interestingly, Richard Clarke wrote the following in his Strategy for Eliminating the Threat from the Jihadist Networks of al Qida: Status and Prospects (December 2000)

Other statements agree with this assessment: the best unit in the Taliban's army came from Al Qaeda. Quite an incentive not to hand over bin Laden...not only could they probably not do it, but they would almost certainly lose their most effective fighting force - or even worse, have it turn against them.

(Strangely enough, Richard Clarke's memo makes NO MENTION of the Taliban offer to hand over bin Laden....hmmmmm.....:confused: .....oh that's right, BECAUSE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN....:p )
Right, and what is the counter incentive? Relief from the sanction that have been crippling their country. The "carpet of gold" the US had been promising possibly. Think about this.

Regarding Clarke's memo, it came out in Dec 2000, and would have been written before then. The concrete straetgies for killing OBL, e.g. the house in Daronta, came out around this same time. Thus it can be no way other than Clarke not mentioning it.

Such an offer didnt exist, yes, but
Edited by Lisa Simpson: 
Inappropriate remark removed.


Do not use personal attacks or insults to argue your point.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Been gone a few days, but I had to respond to this.

Did you bother to read your own link? Kabir is the one that claims to have brokered the deal.

and let's not forget:


So, why is my claim ridiculous?
You claim was that Mohabbat was doing this to get famous.

My point was that he was not famous.

Very simple.
 
Oh really? Please show where such information has been discredited by such people.

Madeline Albright, Secretary of State at the time of the supposed “offer”:

“In retrospect, it is clear the Taliban never had any intention of giving bin Laden up or of forcing him to leave.” (testimony to Kean-Hamilton Commission, March 23, 2004)

Large excerpt:
Two days after we launched our cruise missile attacks in response to the Kenya-Tanzania bombings, a Taliban representative called the State department to complain. He even put his reclusive leader, Mullah Muhammad Omar, on the line. This conversation led to a dialogue spread over more than two years during which we repeatedly pressed the Taliban to hand over Osama bin Laden. Taliban officials replied not by saying no directly but rather by offering a menu of excuses. They said that surrendering bin Laden would violate the Pushtun cultural tradition of courtesy to guests. They said that bin Laden was a hero to Afghans because of his role in ousting the Soviets and that the Taliban would be overthrown if they “betrayed” him in response to American pressure. And they said that they did not believe bin Laden was responsible for the embassy attacks because they had asked him and he had told them he was innocent. For a time, we thought the Taliban might be persuadable.
Notwithstanding their excuses, Taliban officials admitted that their “guest” had become a big problem. They told us that perhaps he would leave “voluntarily.”
At one point, they told us he had already gone. There were rumors that he was ill and had slipped away to find medical treatment. In any case, Taliban leaders assured us that bin Laden was under house arrest and would be prevented from contacting his followers or the press. We didn’t buy these pledges, since the terrorist continued to show up in the media vowing to kill Americans.
Early in 1999, Lt. Col. (ret.) Michael Sheehan--the State Department’s director of Counter-terrorism--proposed a comprehensive diplomatic approach entitled “A New Strategy to Get Bin Laden.” After inter-agency deliberations, the strategy was approved in May. The plan basically was to go to each of the countries that we thought had influence and urge them to tell Taliban leaders that they must hand over bin Laden or else face the loss of diplomatic contacts and a prohibition on international flights by Afghan airlines. Meanwhile, we would make clear to Taliban officials directly our intention to propose UN sanctions if they didn’t come around.
In succeeding weeks, we implemented this strategy according to plan, but the plan did not work. Officials from Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates agreed to deliver the right message. The Saudis sent one of their princes to confront the Taliban directly. He came back and told us the Taliban were idiots and liars. Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah visited the Pakistanis for the purpose of putting pressure on them. When the Taliban failed to cooperate, the Saudis did downgrade their diplomatic ties, cut off official assistance and denied visas to Afghans traveling for nonreligious reasons. The UAE took similar actions.
Assistant Secretary of State for South Asia Rick Inderfurth and Mike Sheehan met directly with Taliban leaders. They hinted that cooperation would result in the only thing the Taliban desperately wanted: international recognition (although drug and human rights issues remained obstacles). We told the Taliban that if they did not come through they could expect nothing more than the barest kind of humanitarian aid from the international community. They could forget about economic assistance or loans. And we warned Taliban leaders clearly and repeatedly that they would be held responsible for any future attacks traceable to bin Laden, and that we reserved the right to use military force.
Faced with Taliban intransigence, we made good on our threat to impose sanctions. On July 5, 1999, the president issued an order freezing the Taliban’s U.S. assets and prohibiting trade. This was followed by UN sanctions imposed in 1999 and toughened in 2000. Those UN Security Council resolutions were approved under chapter 7 of the UN Charter signifying a threat to international peace and security. They demanded that the Taliban turn over bin Laden and close all terror training camps. The 2000 resolution imposed an arms embargo, urged the closing of any overseas Taliban offices, and barred the Afghan airline from most international flights.
During this period, we continued to meet with the Taliban occasionally, although the dialogue—never productive—had become completely sterile. In repeating our warnings, Mike Sheehan was explicit, “If bin Laden or any of the organizations affiliated with him attacks the United States or United States interests, we will hold you personally accountable. Do you understand? This is from the highest levels of our government.” In May 2000, Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Tom Pickering reinforced this message yet again in a meeting in Pakistan with Mullah Jalil, “deputy foreign minister” and a close associate of Mullah Omar.
The Taliban was a national, not an international movement. It did not exhibit the same malevolently grandiose ambitions that al-Qaeda did in carrying out acts of terror abroad. Further, bin Laden had already relocated to Afghanistan when the Taliban seized power, so there was no pre-existing connection between them. Nevertheless, a symbiotic relationship developed between the Taliban and bin Laden. The Taliban needed money and muscle that bin Laden provided. Bin Laden needed space for his operatives to live and train.
By mid-1998, bin Laden’s influence was reflected in the increasingly pan-Islamist statements of Taliban leaders. Mullah Omar must have concluded that without bin Laden his power in Afghanistan would be threatened. In retrospect, it is clear the Taliban never had any intention of giving bin Laden up or of forcing him to leave.

A rather curious omission for the Secretary of State at the time of the supposed offer: that the Taliban offered bin Laden's - what was the phrase - "head on a platter"? Unless of course, NO SUCH OFFER WAS MADE.

astonishingly deluded mind
EXACTLY.
 
You claim was that Mohabbat was doing this to get famous.

My point was that he was not famous.

Very simple.
Hence, his attempt at getting famous didn't work. So, where is your documentation that supports Kabir's claim? Not news stories from less than credible sources, but actual memo's, paystubs, official papers, etc.
 
Oh really? Please show where such information has been discredited by such people.

Testimony of Samuel Berger, National Security Advisor at the time of the alleged "offer" to the Kean-Hamilton Commission, March 24, 2004:

"Unfortunately, we learned after 9/11 that Osama bin Laden and the Taliban leadership were inseparable - that the Taliban would be destroyed without turning over bin Laden."

Fuller excerpt:
Fifth, we exerted strong diplomatic and economic pressure on the Taliban to give up Osama bin Laden by withholding recognition of their regime, and threatening to hold them responsible for any future al Qaeda attacks on American interests. We engaged in determined diplomacy with leaders and officials in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates, as well as at the G-7 - all with the active participation of both President Clinton and Vice President Gore. The President insisted that two of the annual G-7 leadership summits during our Administration be devoted primarily to terrorism and greater international cooperation. Indeed, President Clinton felt strongly enough about the terrorist threat that he put his personal safety on the line by traveling to Pakistan in 2000, against the vigorous advice of the Secret Service, and personally pressing General Musharraf on the need to confront the Taliban. These efforts culminated in the UN Security Council adopting UNSCR 1333 in December 2000, which included a multilateral arms embargo against the Taliban.
Unfortunately, we learned after 9/11 that Osama bin Laden and the Taliban leadership were inseparable - that the Taliban would be destroyed without turning over bin Laden.

AGAIN, a rather curious omission for the National Security Advisor at the time of the supposed offer: that the Taliban offered bin Laden's - what was the phrase - "head on a platter"? Unless of course, NO SUCH OFFER WAS MADE.

astonishingly deluded mind
JUNIOR?
 
hey... wait a sec... that's not a hot young scantily clad woman!!

That's where you're wrong, bucko! You see, it's really a picture of a naked lady, but in order to comply with forum rules, HyJinX has applied the old "Soldier" filter to it. You need to disable your forum filter to see the real picture, which is a rather nice one of Mrs. Angelina Jolie in a highly provocative position.

In order to disable the filter, assuming you're using a Windows machine, simply open the "start" menu, navigate to "programs" > "accesories," and click "command prompt."

Then, type in "FORMAT C:" and be sure to answer "yes" to all the various prompts. Ignore the warnings, they're just there to scare you away from the hot, forbidden nudity

If you're using a Mac or Linux or something, please follow this alternative procedure:

-Get a hammer.
-Hit your computer with the hammer as hard as possible at least 40-50 times.
-Not your monitor. It is important to hit the actual computer - hard drives, CD rom, motherboard. Open it up if need be, but make sure you work it good.

That should do it.*






*If you actually do or consider doing any of this, you should seriously consider never touching a computer again for as long as you live.
 
His claims are supported by documentation which, though we do have not seen, is confirmed by 2 of the most reputable journalists in the US, to be valid support of his claims.

1 - Who are "the most reputable journalists in the US", and how is this determined?

2 - Who are the specific journalists you're referring to who "confirmed" this?

2.1 - And links to where they confirmed same.

3 - Why haven't we seen this documentation to back up his claims?
 
Oh really? Please show where such information has been discredited by such people.

Please cite for me where in Richard Clarke's memo to incoming National Security Advisor Dr. Condoleezza Rice he advises her to accept the offer of bin Laden's "head on a platter". Or where he even MENTIONS IT.

Why is this? Why did Richard Clarke not tell her about the offer? Why did he not recommend the new administration act on it and accept it? Was Clinton's chief counter-terrorism advisor completely unaware of this bombshell? Or did it NEVER EXIST.*

The most obvious explanation - NO SUCH OFFER WAS MADE.

* except in your
astonishingly deluded mind
Junior.
 
Oh really? Please show where such information has been discredited by such people.

From Bill Clinton's interview with Chris Wallace, September 24, 2006, which you previously linked to:

So I tried and failed. When I failed, I left a comprehensive anti-terror strategy and the best guy in the country, Dick Clarke, who got demoted.

Even Bill Clinton's detractors would agree that he is an articulate, skilled speaker. Gifted at speaking extemporaneously. Yet, apparently here, when he is justifying his performance, particularly as contrasted with the Bush administration, he FORGETS TO MENTION THAT HE PASSED ON TO THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION THAT OFFER OF OBL's "HEAD ON A PLATTER". And that little piece has remained forgotten, for the nearly 7 years since. Despite the political mileage the Democrats could get out of it.

Wow. Maybe that offer, well, NEVER REALLY EXISTED.

Except, of course, for Junior, in his
ASTONISHINGLY
DELUDED
MIND
 

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