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RE: Oliver "They don't attack us for our freedoms".

1995: The U.S. imposes oil and trade sanctions against Iran, reinforcing sanctions in effect since 1979, for alleged sponsorship of 'terrorism', seeking to acquire nuclear arms and hostility to the Middle East process. (BBC, CSM
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No "alleged" about it. Iran is the main sponsor of terrorism in the Middle East.
 
gtc said:
Oliver,

I will pick one thread from that monster post of yours.

Do you have any evidence that Undesired Walrus or indeed any JREF poster or any American politician thinks that a Global Missile Defense Program will protect Americans against Terrorists?

You seem to be saying that some people are making the suggestion that Missile Defense will protect against Terrorism. However, this is the first time that I have seen the two ideas connected.

I think the problem with this thread is that we are talking about the threat posed by the minority of Islamic people who are violently oppossed to the West. You seem to think that we are talking about the majority of Islamic people who are not violently oppossed to the West.
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Yes, I have evidence that the Missile Shield is favored to protect against nuclear weaponry from "Terror-States". Now even if the most suitable country for this term today is Korea and Iran and the US didn't call them this way yet, they certainly will do so if they're getting tired of these countries.

We also saw similar politics and terms toward the old US-Friend Saddam.

I know that we're talking about a minority here - but even if I also hear a lot of generalizations, they're no bigger threat than they were BEFORE 9/11.

So let me ask: Are you more afraid since 9/11 - and if so: Why?
 
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero


Honestly: I have to look up the sources because I saved this text, but I thought this is "fair use" to cite sources for educational purposes.

So may I ask: Am I allowed to post it with source? :confused:
 
gumboot said:
Oliver, instead of copying and pasting great swathes of articles that are irrelevant to the discussion and you obviously don't understand, why don't you just take a moment to carefully read the posts by others here and think about what they are saying.

To every concern raised about radical Muslims you openly declare your total ignorance, and dismiss them as "crazies". Your understanding of Radical Islam is, to be honest, infantile.

To use the previous Mein Kampf reference to build a metaphor; you are arguing that the motivation of Nazi Germany was to right the wrongs of WWI. When others point out Mein Kampf and other evidence of the true goals of the Nazis you declare you know nothing of these documents, and dismiss such examples as "well there are Nazis who are crazies, everyone has crazies".

You comparison of Radical Islam to Scientology clearly demonstrates just how appallingly ignorant you are of what the situation is.

Oliver, what you appear to be confusing is the motivations of Radical Islam with the cause of general anti-western sentiment amongst the wider Middle East population.

They are not the same thing.

-Gumboot
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I brought up "Mein Kampf" because it's still pretty modern >TODAY<. I honestly didn't brought it up concerning the former Nazi-Regime but for it's still popular ideology.

And concerning radical Islam: That's nothing new. That's why I say: "I'm not afraid of the US-Boogeymen". And that statement is why Walrus brought up the thread called: "RE: Oliver "They don't attack us for our freedoms".".

And concerning Scientology: It is no religion. THEY THEMSELVE said this.
 
Oliver said:
I brought up "Mein Kampf" because it's still pretty modern >TODAY<. I honestly didn't brought it up concerning the former Nazi-Regime but for it's still popular ideology.
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Funny enough it is still quite popular in radical Islam.

Oliver said:
I didn't visited all of your links but I guess we had this issue many times before. Well, I didn't start the new thread, did I?
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Yes, that is why it is impossible to discuss with you, you are one major case study of willful ignorance.
 
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Pardalis said:
Funny enough it is still quite popular in radical Islam.

Yes, that is why it is impossible to discuss with you, you are one major case study of willful ignorance.
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Well, then sum up your point of view. I would appreciate why you think we should be afraid. Especially in Canada. :rolleyes:
 
Oliver said:
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero


Honestly: I have to look up the sources because I saved this text, but I thought this is "fair use" to cite sources for educational purposes.

So may I ask: Am I allowed to post it with source? :confused:
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Oliver there is one overriding Muslim problem specifically with the United States. That is our support for Israel. It has nothing to do with oil, coups, Iraq or anything else. The United States is the one remaining true ally of Israel. The Palestinians have the the support and sympathy of the rest of the world.
 
Oliver said:
Yes, I have evidence that the Missile Shield is favored to protect against nuclear weaponry from "Terror-States". Now even if the most suitable country for this term today is Korea and Iran and the US didn't call them this way yet, they certainly will do so if they're getting tired of these countries.
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Firstly, it is North Korea or the DPRK. Secondly, this thread has been about the response to non government terrorist organisations. The actions of North Korea and other countries should be kept to a different thread.

Oliver said:
I know that we're talking about a minority here - but even if I also hear a lot of generalizations, they're no bigger threat than they were BEFORE 9/11.
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You say that they are not a bigger threat than before 9/11 but you also argue that terrorism is a response to our actions since 9/11. Both can't be true.

Oliver said:
So let me ask: Are you more afraid since 9/11 - and if so: Why?
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I am more concerned. Before 9/11 I was not as aware about the threats posed by radical Islam as I am today. I also believe that the threat to Australia has increased since 2000 (the time of the Sydney Olympics and the intervention in East Timor). I don't need to list the various terrorist plots that have succeeded against Australian interests or that have been intercepted by the Australian authorities. If you like you can google Jack Roche, Jakarta bombings, Bali bombings and JI.
 
gtc said:
Firstly, it is North Korea or the DPRK. Secondly, this thread has been about the response to non government terrorist organisations. The actions of North Korea and other countries should be kept to a different thread.

You say that they are not a bigger threat than before 9/11 but you also argue that terrorism is a response to our actions since 9/11. Both can't be true.

I am more concerned. Before 9/11 I was not as aware about the threats posed by radical Islam as I am today. I also believe that the threat to Australia has increased since 2000 (the time of the Sydney Olympics and the intervention in East Timor). I don't need to list the various terrorist plots that have succeeded against Australian interests or that have been intercepted by the Australian authorities. If you like you can google Jack Roche, Jakarta bombings, Bali bombings and JI.
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Well, our different views originate in our pre-9/11 view of the world. Even I wasn't that aware of Islamic extremism, terrorism is reported in the Media since I watched TV for the first time. So it's nothing new to me - which may be the main reason NOT to be concerned and fearful.

Quite the opposite: Personally I'm much more afraid of an increase of the Iraq war into other regions surrounding Iraq. And yes, in this case I will blame the Bush-Regime for destabilizing the region. Under Saddam, and I also think he was a ********, things were pretty stable. That's a sad fact, but a fact.

So even if you may misunderstood my statement that "Terrorism isn't bigger since 9/11", I think that anti-western ideologies decreased since entering Iraq. But quite frankly, I don't know in which scale - and I don't know how to fix the damage in Iraq. To withdraw is a big mistake in my personal opinion, even if I'm very opposed to the war.
 
Oliver said:
Well, our different views originate in our pre-9/11 view of the world. Even I wasn't that aware of Islamic extremism, terrorism is reported in the Media since I watched TV for the first time. So it's nothing new to me - which may be the main reason NOT to be concerned and fearful.
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You aren't the only one to have been aware of terrorism. My family has first hand experience of terrorism in the UK and Sri Lanka. Americans have been well aware of terrorism for decades as well with the attacks in Lebanon and Israel.

Oliver said:
Quite the opposite: Personally I'm much more afraid of an increase of the Iraq war into other regions surrounding Iraq. And yes, in this case I will blame the Bush-Regime for destabilizing the region. Under Saddam, and I also think he was a ********, things were pretty stable. That's a sad fact, but a fact.
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And yet Saddam invaded Iran and Kuwait, launched chemical warfare attacks against the Kurds and other Iraqis, attacked Israel with rockets, funded Palestinean terrorists and threatened Saudi Arabia. That is not pretty stable by any means.

Oliver said:
So even if you may misunderstood my statement that "Terrorism isn't bigger since 9/11", I think that anti-western ideologies decreased since entering Iraq.
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Isn't that a good thing?

Oliver said:
But quite frankly, I don't know in which scale - and I don't know how to fix the damage in Iraq. To withdraw is a big mistake in my personal opinion, even if I'm very opposed to the war.
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I agree that withdrawing from Iraq would be a big mistake irrespective of the reasons for going to war in the first place.
 
Oliver said:
Honestly: I have to look up the sources because I saved this text, but I thought this is "fair use" to cite sources for educational purposes.
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I'm a little puzzled by your careless attitude here Oliver. Do you realize what this article you took that quote from is? Did you even care to read the rest? Do you realize that it is filled with anti-semitic garbage?

Do you understand what the expression "useful idiot" means?
 
gtc said:
You aren't the only one to have been aware of terrorism. My family has first hand experience of terrorism in the UK and Sri Lanka. Americans have been well aware of terrorism for decades as well with the attacks in Lebanon and Israel.
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Also some helped implement it in Chile, Iran, Vietnam, etc. It's a two edged sword.

And yet Saddam invaded Iran and Kuwait, launched chemical warfare attacks against the Kurds and other Iraqis, attacked Israel with rockets, funded Palestinean terrorists and threatened Saudi Arabia. That is not pretty stable by any means.
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Once he had his **** cut off, he was pretty stable. Still a murderous nutcase, but mostly powerless.

Compared to what is there now, it was incredibly stable.
 
gtc said:
You aren't the only one to have been aware of terrorism. My family has first hand experience of terrorism in the UK and Sri Lanka. Americans have been well aware of terrorism for decades as well with the attacks in Lebanon and Israel.
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Well, so what's the fuss about then? From what I've learned, the majority of Americans weren't aware of Terrorism and Anti-American Ideologies in the Middle East. Most of them don't know they're part of this Issue and think "It's about our Freedoms". That isn't even naive - it's straightway dumb to believe that.

gtc said:
And yet Saddam invaded Iran and Kuwait, launched chemical warfare attacks against the Kurds and other Iraqis, attacked Israel with rockets, funded Palestinean terrorists and threatened Saudi Arabia. That is not pretty stable by any means.
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Yes, and the US didn't care about the Kurds. I never claimed that Saddam was an Angel - but I understand the dirty parts of the US in this part of History, too. The Americans ignore that ugly fact.

gtc said:
Isn't that a good thing?
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No, not to me. I'm opposed to violence and I'm also not hating America, but very disappointed because I had this image of a honest leader of the world in my mind before I looked into it.

gtc said:
I agree that withdrawing from Iraq would be a big mistake irrespective of the reasons for going to war in the first place.
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Then you're wiser than everyone in the US who wants to pull out. I guess these people wouldn't talk such irresponsible BS if they had a better knowledge, would they?
 
Oliver said:
I brought up "Mein Kampf" because it's still pretty modern >TODAY<. I honestly didn't brought it up concerning the former Nazi-Regime but for it's still popular ideology.
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Guess what, European people like Hegel were a big inspiration for Mawdudi and Syed Qutb. If you want to sound like you know anything about the issue, I suggest you read their works. Milestones is online. Both books are read by followers of Hizb Ut-Tahrir. It is their inspiration.

Please stop sweeping Islamists under the rug as 'crazies'. They are people too you know. Most of the time very intelligent, but unchallanged by the moderates you see. Especially in Britain.
 
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Undesired Walrus said:
Guess what, European people like Hegel were a big inspiration for Mawdudi and Syed Qutb. If you want to sound like you know anything about the issue, I suggest you read their works. Milestones is online. Both books are read by followers of Hizb Ut-Tahrir. It is their inspiration.

Please stop sweeping Islamists under the rug as 'crazies'. They are people too you know. Most of the time very intelligent, but unchallanged by the moderates you see. Especially in Britain.
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Well, I've read the main points of Qutb's work - but I don't see your point.
But I will wait until you replied to my last message which answered your accusations.
 
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