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Ah, the old "Some of my best friends are...". Question: Do you listen to them, or do you simply just talk and listen to what you want to hear in response?
See what I mean about marginalising the issues? There is a lot more than 'Women can drive'. They aint all sand-dwellers buddy. The issue of 'freedom' is what is outlined in Syed Qutb's, 'Milestones'. Have a read. Qutb was Zawahiri's mentor.
You'll notice I do not absolve US foriegn policy from the attacks on the US, not do I absolve the Spanish intervention in Iraq from the Madrid bombings or the Soviet Union from the mujahideen rebellion. However, you seem to think this brand of resistance fighting is the sole and only cause of Islamic extremism. The Arab world is a big place. I can guarantee my customs and culture are a lot different from yours, the same goes for our friends across the pond. Do you think the same thought exists in Palestine as it does in Pakistan?
I don't believe 9/11 was a means to an end. But lets get it clear, they want a global Islamic state, that is their dream. And if you think sodding off from their lands is going to make the world, nor their own ordinary people any better, think again.
"
I'm sure by now the media's painted a suitable picture of me, this predictable propaganda machine will naturally try to put a spin on things to suit the government and to scare the masses into conforming to their power and wealth-obsessed agendas.
I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe.
Our driving motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer.
I never said you're not allowed to be scared about muslim terrorism. But I'm not afraid, even if I don't live on a continent with no muslim states. I don't believe "hate our freedoms".
I prefer to face the non-conspiracy world:
Here's a small overview (Flash-Movie ) for you to understand that it's slightly more complicated then you illustrate:
They killed a Dutch filmmaker for critizing Islam. A Fatwah exists on author and recently knighted Sir Salmon Rushdie. Mass rioting after a Ditch cartoon depicted Mohammed. More rioting after the Pope's quoting a previous Pope saying Islam was violent. I get the feeling Muslims can not accept criticism of Islam. So freedom of expression seems to be out. Could this be a motivation Islamic extremism? To believe this is not a one of many motivating factors is to be oblivious to world events.
By the way Chrisitianity, Judism and other religious occurs all the time without mass riots, fatwahs on authors and the killing film makers. The makers of Jesus Camp are not living in fear right now. Salmon Rushdie still has to be careful. Van Gogh is still dead.
They killed a Dutch filmmaker for critizing Islam. A Fatwah exists on author and recently knighted Sir Salmon Rushdie. Mass rioting after a Ditch cartoon depicted Mohammed. More rioting after the Pope's quoting a previous Pope saying Islam was violent. I get the feeling Muslims can not accept criticism of Islam. So freedom of expression seems to be out. Could this be a motivation Islamic extremism? To believe this is not a one of many motivating factors is to be oblivious to world events.
By the way Chrisitianity, Judism and other religious occurs all the time without mass riots, fatwahs on authors and the killing film makers. The makers of Jesus Camp are not living in fear right now. Salmon Rushdie still has to be careful. Van Gogh is still dead.
So, right now you have nothing to back up that belief, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Look back over my two last posts, do you have anything to say that refutes any of my points?
You say *yawn*, prove it. Prove anything I said was an inaccurate representation of the Islamist movement. I say you marginalise Muslims because you do. Speaking to a few Muslim friends to get your absolutism on the topic is assuming every single Muslim in the world speaks with the same mind and comes to the same conclusion. I was born Catholic, do I know anything about some Mexican catholic and his approach to the faith? Have your Muslim friends come into contact with anyone from Hizb Ut-Tahrir?? A real critical thinker will carefully deconstruct all my points and give insight. Instead you resort to simple 'beliefs'. Prove your 'belief' is ameanable to reason rather than a desire to whack the US into a home run.
As usual you prefer to paint me as someone who simplisticly believes they 'hate our freedoms' rather than noticing I do not subscribe to the belief that Islamists attacked the world trade centre simply because of their freedoms.
The fact that you rely on a msnbc article to do the talking proves that you dont know what the hell you are talking about. You got some cheek to say this flash movie expresses points more complicated than I do strawman. That movie right, and this is a serious question, do you think the entire race of Muslims believe in the same principles that the fighters in Iraq do? See what I mean about marginalising?
Tell me I am wrong about Hizb Ut-Tahrir, about Syed Qutb, about Mawdudi. Tell any Muslim radical in Britain they do this simply because of da big bad USA.
You have the usual liberal wishy washy ideal that anyone who says Islamists are to blame, not the US, is an Islamaphobe. I say, give Islam some respect rather than patronise it.
To a degree I agree with you here. However, one think to remember is that the 9/11 attacks are not Al Qaeda's MO - they are Khalid Sheikh Mohamed's MO. KSM just flat out hates America (despite living the wild life himself). He joined the Muslim Brotherhood when he was 16.
Prior to the 9/11 attacks, Al Qaeda had never attacked American civilians, and had never attacked on US soil. That's something worth considering. Their targets were US military and government sites mainly in Africa and the Middle East.
KSM, by contrast, has always attacked civilians, as did his nephew Ramzi Yousef.
I personally think KSM convinced Al Qaeda that the US were more likely to cower if their civilians were attacked than if their military were attacked. I suspect Osama Bin Laden originally genuinely had specific grievances against the USA and Saudi Arabia, but has bowed to the wider and more extreme Islamist goals of his fellow Al Qaeda members.
-Gumboot
I think KSM is more of a secular terrorist with political motivations against America and is not very religious. I think he just used OBL and his AQ network to attack on 9/11.
I also suspect KSM was in Las Vegas meeting with the hijackers in the summer of 2001 supervising the coming attacks.
...and of course all of this was witnessed by the Mossad.
I think KSM is more of a secular terrorist with political motivations against America and is not very religious. I think he just used OBL and his AQ network to attack on 9/11.
I also suspect KSM was in Las Vegas meeting with the hijackers in the summer of 2001 supervising the coming attacks.
...and of course all of this was witnessed by the Mossad.
I cannot believe any rational person can believe that the Islamists attack the U.S. because they hate our our freedom or want to convert us to Islam.
Those who do, please answer the following qeustions:
1. What freedom do we have in the U.S. that people in Sweden do not have?
2. If the answer to 1 is none, why have they not attacked Sweden?
3. How does killing 0.001% of the U.S. population promote our conversion to Islam?
4. If that answer to 3 is that it does not, aren't you making the mistake of considering them irrational? Shouldn't we look for the rational reason for an action before assuming the irrational?
Bin Laden attacked to the U.S. for one reason only. To invoke a response. Which we handed him on a silver platter by attacking Iraq. Bin Laden's fantasy is establishing an Islamic state in Saudi Arabia. Destabilizing the region is the first step.
Bin Laden attacked to the U.S. for one reason only. To invoke a response. Which we handed him on a silver platter by attacking Iraq. Bin Laden's fantasy is establishing an Islamic state in Saudi Arabia. Destabilizing the region is the first step.
No Bin Laden attacked the United States because he felt we would not respond in any meaningful way. He had good historic reasons for feeling that way. It is not what the leaders of the Jihadist movement really believe it is what the followers are led to believe that matters. Bin Laden and those like him never strap bombs on themselves they whip up religious hysteria in their followers do do that. One of their major ways of doing that is to preach the decadence of the West. There are over a billion Muslims on the planet and if even 1% are radicalized that is a potential army of 10 million. It is estimated that the percentage of radicalized Islamists and their supporters are far greater than that. The West simply cannot keep kicking the can down the road hoping that if we just try to reason with that faction we will be left in peace. There is no reasoning with fanatics. Unless Islam goes through a rapid "reformation" movement the problem is going to be beyond control.
I just want to make it clear that no one here is claiming terrorists attacked the US "for their freedoms".
That's a strawman argument constructed by Oliver, who seems totally unable of comprehending the situation, and so must have it all drawn out in black and white.
Al Qaeda attacked the United States to try scare the population into making the government withdraw from the Middle East. It certainly wasn't intended to result in the invasion of Afghanistan. I think Al Qaeda made the same mistake that Japan did in WW2. They grossly underestimated the USA's response.
The real issue is, ultimately, why do Islamic terrorists want the USA out of the Middle East?
Oliver's contention is that it's a simply a case of being opposed to foreign occupiers in their countries.
This is totally false, and hence this discussion. Movements such as Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood are as equally opposed to the Saudi Government, or previously, Saddam's government, as they are the USA's presence in the Middle East.
They want the west out of the Middle East for two reasons:
1) So they can destroy Israel
2) So they can establish a pan-Arab Muslim theocracy
Muslim leaders have never tried to hide these goals. They declare them openly, and often. No one has any excuse for being ignorant of these facts.
Allah commanded us to spread this religion worldwide.
-Musa bin Muhammed al-Qarni, Saudi Cleric (2004)
The message of the Revolution is global, and is not restricted to a specific place or time. Have no doubt - Allah willing, Islam will conquer what? It will conquer all the mountain tops of the world.
Mahmoud Ahmadi-Nejad, Iranian President, (2004)
We have ruled the world before, and by Allah, the day will come when we will rule the entire world again! The day will come when we will rule America. The day will come when we will rule Britain and the entire world!
-Sheik Ibrahim Mudeiris, Palestinian Cleric (2005)
It's only a matter of time until we rule Earth, until we control Earth. In the end of the day, Islam must control Earth, whether we like it or not. It's a promise of Allah, it's a promise from [the prophet].
-Abu Hamza Al-Masri
Indeed it is He, who sent His messenger, Mohammed (peace be upon him), with the [path of truth] with Islam, to dominate all other religions, the dominate the United States, to dominate the world, even though the non-Muslims may hate it.
-Islamic Thinkers Society, streets of New York City (2005)
This religion [Islam] will destroy all other religions through the Islamic Jihad Fighters.
-Jordanian/Palestinian school book
It's only a matter of time until we rule Earth, until we control Earth. In the end of the day, Islam must control Earth, whether we like it or not. It's a promise of Allah, it's a promise from [the prophet].
-Abu Hamza Al-Masri
It is amazing to me that the Islamists are completely honest in their intentions and plans and tell us what they are going to do and yet many in the West refuse to take them at their word.
I suspect that many of your Muslim friends are of Turkish, Albanian or Bosnian origin. Is this correct?
The religious beliefs of the European Muslim communities are very different to the religious beliefs of many in the Middle East. It is like comparing the religous beliefs of Lutherans and Catholics.
Nope, I didn't read Sy's "Milestones" and also didn't read "Mein Kampf", Hitlers Mile Stone.
Both Books have their million nutty followers. Both Books can be used against our way of live. Both Books inspire people to terrorism or revolution.
What the **** is your point here? Maybe you can point out the difference between these two examples to get a feeling for favoring Syed Qutb as your personal threat philosopher.
Undesired Walrus said:
It's funny Oliver. You guys always go on about America not understanding Muslims, marginalizing them, believing them to be simplistic cave dwellers etc.
This is completely wrong. First of all I never said anything about "Cave Dwellers", quite the contrary. In fact, it was the picture made by the Mainstream Media and current White House, that made this impression.
Why? Because I guess they knew that the americans majority wouldn't care about some insignificant details. "Tell them Evildoers and War on Terror", and everything is fine."
Secondly: I'm not marginalizing. It's much more complicated than you seem to think. The muslim world has many different opinions, different believes and even much more different non-religious interests. There are many parties involved, political AND religious.
So? What's the solution for this problem?
1. Poking into a Bee Hive (As a reminder: That's Americas old way of "fixing" it, also right now, isn't it?)
2. Assisting diplomacy to moderate the muslim World and get rid of the biggest conflicts to establish relations and inner stability like in Turkey, for example.
3. Keep the fingers off the Muslim world. (Well, where do we get their resources then?)
So what's your solution? Burning Syed Qutb's Books?
Undesired Walrus said:
You underestimate their intellectual thought, and their overall aims.
BS. I pretty much don't see a bigger threat than before 9/11. Terrorism is older than the Bible, the Koran and the Talmud all together. So what's the fuss about anyway? The western world and America in particular pretty much looks like terrorism was invented that day - which started a shifting in a general view of the world. Unfortunately not towards tolerance - but quite the opposite. (As a reminder: "The War on Terror" was the most extreme way to solve the problem in an intolerant way).
Overall Aims. You really think all Christians are the same? Well, then you're right and the Muslims also are pretty much the same. They all believe the same, they all have the same, strong faith, they all believe in the old and new Testament the same way.
And you think I AM marginalizing???
Undesired Walrus said:
See what I mean about marginalising the issues? There is a lot more than 'Women can drive'. They aint all sand-dwellers buddy. The issue of 'freedom' is what is outlined in Syed Qutb's, 'Milestones'. Have a read. Qutb was Zawahiri's mentor.
Once again: Qutb was Zawahiri's Mentor. Zawahiri was Osamas Mentor. Osama is X's Mentor.
Guess what? The US isn't that concerned about Osama, you remember this, don't you? :
I tell you what I think: I think as long there are Osama Bin Boogey-Men out there, they're a welcome gift to have an argument in foreign politics -AKA: "Watch out, they're still out there - and they're planning evil things against us - boohooowoohoo".
Are you that naive that you get dazzled so easily?
Undesired Walrus said:
The Arab world is a big place. I can guarantee my customs and culture are a lot different from yours, the same goes for our friends across the pond. Do you think the same thought exists in Palestine as it does in Pakistan?
"Arab world." Oh Jesus. So is the "persian world". You know the difference?
While I have no doubt's that some religious Ideas could spread to many parts of the muslim world, like Qutb's ideas, so what?
You're telling nothing new to me. In fact, that Game is as old as mankind.
What's your solution? The only one I see is to be an Ideal for the world, including the middle-east. And no, that doesn't work out militarily unless the United States wants to ruin themselves or bomb out the whole muslim world.
Therefore, and you really should see that for yourself: It's a HOAX - and I'm talking about the whole "War on Terror against Evildoers". Don't you see that?
Undesired Walrus said:
But lets get it clear, they want a global Islamic state, that is their dream.
Who are they? 50,000 in Iraq, 20,000 in Kuwait, 100,000 in Iran, 10,000 in Turkey...? Again, nothing new, so what's your solution?
Let me guess here: A Global Missile Defense Program.
Well, that's a solution, but it makes the worlds todays superpower look like a paranoid, coward sitting in a secure box and shooting against opponents as he please in his cowardly hideout.
Undesired Walrus said:
And if you think sodding off from their lands is going to make the world, nor their own ordinary people any better, think again.
Nope, never thought this way to back off and let them kill each other. Quite the opposite. Pretty much all military foreign policies in the Middle East are a mess and did absolutely nothing to moderate anything.
Undesired Walrus said:
So, right now you have nothing to back up that belief, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Look back over my two last posts, do you have anything to say that refutes any of my points?
Quite Frankly - I didn't ask them yet about Hizb Ut-Tahrir. What I can tell you is that they think that extremists are nuts.
Why do they think this way?
Because they are pretty happy with the western way of life.
Do they criticize western family values?
Yes. So does everyone who cares about these traditional values.
Do they hate our freedoms? No, even Iranians and Iraqi in Germany have no problems with it.
Aren't there extremists in Germany also?
Yes, we also have nutty McVeigh's. Like Scientology, they're observed by the "Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution" and pretty much a exception for their Muslim fellowman.
There are 1.3 Billion Muslims all over the world. So what's the point you're trying to make here?
And for a better comprehension of the Islam, a little overview for you:
1. Major Branches:
Sunni, Shi`a, Kharijite
2. Sunnism Schools of Fiqh: Hanafi, Barelwi, Deobandi, Hanbali, Maliki, Shafi'i Schools of Kalam: Ash'ari, Maturidi, Murjite, Mu'tazili
1. Poking into a Bee Hive (As a reminder: That's Americas old way of "fixing" it, also right now, isn't it?)
2. Assisting diplomacy to moderate the muslim World and get rid of the biggest conflicts to establish relations and inner stability like in Turkey, for example.
3. Keep the fingers off the Muslim world. (Well, where do we get their resources then?)
So what's your solution? Burning Syed Qutb's Books
Tell me, other than importing a small percentage of Middle Eastern oil and kicking Saddam out of Kuwait, what has the United states done to the Middle East?
Tell me, other than importing a small percentage of Middle Eastern oil and kicking Saddam out of Kuwait, what has the United states done to the Middle East?
[added] I highlighted all "Hate our Freedoms" arguments that really make terrorists happy.
U.S. Intervention in the Middle East
1918-1945: BREAKING INTO THE MIDDLE EAST:
THE FIGHT FOR INFLUENCE & OIL
<snip>
1944:U.S. State Department memo refers to Middle Eastern oil as "a stupendous source of strategic power, and one of the greatest material prizes in world history." During U.S.-British negotiations over the control of Middle Eastern oil, President Roosevelt sketches out a map of the Middle East and tells the British Ambassador, "Persian oil is yours. We share the oil of Iraq and Kuwait. As for Saudi Arabian oil, it's ours." On August 8, 1944, the Anglo-American Petroleum Agreement is signed, splitting Middle Eastern oil between the U.S. and Britain.
Between 1948 and 1960, Western capital earns $12.8 billion in profits from the production, refining and sale of Middle Eastern oil, on fixed investments totaling $1.3 billion.
1945-1955: REPLACING RIVALS AND WAGING WAR
ON NATIONAL LIBERATION
<snip> November 1947: The U.S. helps push through a UN resolution partitioning Palestine into a Zionist state and an Arab state, giving the Zionist authorities control of 54% of the land. At that time Jewish settlers were about 1/3 of the population.
May 14, 1948: War breaks out between newly proclaimed state of Israel, and Egypt, Iraq, Jordan and Syria, who had moved troops into Palestine to oppose the partition of Palestine. Israeli attacks force some 800,000 Palestinians--two-thirds of the population--to flee into exile in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Gaza, and the West Bank. Israel seizes 77 percent of historic Palestine. The U.S. quickly recognizes Israel.
<snip>
1956-1958: UPHEAVAL AND INTRIGUE IN EGYPT,
IRAQ, JORDAN, SYRIA & LEBANON
<snip>
October 1956: A planned CIA coup to overthrow a left-leaning government in Syria is aborted because it was scheduled for the same day Israel, Britain and France invade Egypt.
<snip> April 1957: After anti-government rioting breaks out in Jordan, U.S. rushes 6th fleet to the eastern Mediterranean and lands a battalion of Marines in Lebanon to "prepare for possible future intervention in Jordan." Later that year, the CIA begins making secret payments of millions a year to Jordan's King Hussein.
<snip>
THE FALL OF THE SHAH AND
THE SOVIET INVASION OF AFGHANISTAN
1978: As the Iranian revolution begins against the hated Shah, the U.S. continues to support him "without reservation" and urges him to act forcefully against the masses. In August 1978, some 400 Iranians are burned to death in the Rex Theater in Abadan after police chain and lock the exit doors. On September 8, 10,000 anti-Shah demonstrators are massacred at Teheran's Jaleh Square.
You are really a dishonest player. The Middle East is and always has been the playground of Europe and Russia. The United States has aided European nations and Middle Eastern nations in protecting both the supply of oil to EUROUPE and protecting countries in the region from each other.. The United States imports less than 15% of its oil from the Middle East. The United States did not colonize the Middle East.
The United States DOES NOT NEED Middle Eastern oil. The United States did not overthrow the Iranian government it was primarily a British operation when the Iranian government decided to nationalize its oil industry. The United States did not provide Saddam Hussein with nuclear technology, the United States is not providing Iran with Nuclear technology That would be France and Germany. Egypt and Turkey are functioning democracies due in large part to help from the Untied States. The ONLY involvement in the Middle East by the United States has bee at the behest of either allies or friendly governments in the region up to the present conflict. Look to Europe for the mess the Middle East is in. It is the United States that is paying the price for that mess every day soldier by soldier not to mention 3000 of us dead here at home and all EUROPE can do is sit back a enjoy the show.
I will pick one thread from that monster post of yours.
Do you have any evidence that Undesired Walrus or indeed any JREF poster or any American politician thinks that a Global Missile Defense Program will protect Americans against Terrorists?
You seem to be saying that some people are making the suggestion that Missile Defense will protect against Terrorism. However, this is the first time that I have seen the two ideas connected.
I think the problem with this thread is that we are talking about the threat posed by the minority of Islamic people who are violently oppossed to the West. You seem to think that we are talking about the majority of Islamic people who are not violently oppossed to the West.
January 2001: Tenth anniversary of the U.S. war on Iraq: sanctions are still in place and the UN estimates that 4,500 children are dying per month from disease and malnutrition as a result. The U.S. planes, which have flown over 280,000 sorties in Iraq over the past decade, continue to attack from the air. In the past two years, over 300 Iraqis have been killed in these bombings.
Oliver, instead of copying and pasting great swathes of articles that are irrelevant to the discussion and you obviously don't understand, why don't you just take a moment to carefully read the posts by others here and think about what they are saying.
To every concern raised about radical Muslims you openly declare your total ignorance, and dismiss them as "crazies". Your understanding of Radical Islam is, to be honest, infantile.
To use the previous Mein Kampf reference to build a metaphor; you are arguing that the motivation of Nazi Germany was to right the wrongs of WWI. When others point out Mein Kampf and other evidence of the true goals of the Nazis you declare you know nothing of these documents, and dismiss such examples as "well there are Nazis who are crazies, everyone has crazies".
You comparison of Radical Islam to Scientology clearly demonstrates just how appallingly ignorant you are of what the situation is.
Oliver, what you appear to be confusing is the motivations of Radical Islam with the cause of general anti-western sentiment amongst the wider Middle East population.
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