RE: Oliver "They don't attack us for our freedoms".

[D'rok]

From the horse's mouth, so to speak:

When I was still a member of what is probably best termed the British Jihadi Network, a series of semi-autonomous British Muslim terrorist groups linked by a single ideology, I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy.

By blaming the government for our actions, those who pushed the 'Blair's bombs' line did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2115832,00.html

 

[TriangleMan]

You're a young Muslim male. You can't have sex, and you're not allowed alcohol.

Yes, yes, and most Western teenagers are sexually frustrated too because, being Christians, they remain virgins until they are married and never jack-off, right?

 

[Pardalis]

Are you saying 9/11 happened because Nightclubs - or - that they hate American freedoms like this one: "We in the US have the Freedom that no one can put an embargo on us or invade our country."

The islamic fundamentalists just love people like you. They call you the "useful idiots".

 

[gumboot]

Yes, yes, and most Western teenagers are sexually frustrated too because, being Christians, they remain virgins until they are married and never jack-off, right?

Most westerners are Christians?



I thought it was funny. Especially the sand bit.

-Gumboot

 

[Bob Klase]

Yes, yes, and most Western teenagers are sexually frustrated too because, being Christians, they remain virgins until they are married and never jack-off, right?

It's much less common that Western teenagers (even christians) are killed for having sex.

 

[TriangleMan]

I thought it was funny. Especially the sand bit.

I couldn't help myself, "and Christians are virgins until they get married" is my standard response whenever someone sees Muslims drinking alcohol and comments to me that they shouldn't be doing that. As soon as I read your post instinct kicked in.

 

[tkingdoll]

Yes, yes, and most Western teenagers are sexually frustrated too because, being Christians, they remain virgins until they are married and never jack-off, right?

Perhaps gumboot was responding in the spirit in which my post was intended, which is as a satire of motive-ascribing. In the absence of first-hand testimony like the article D'rok supplied, then all hypotheses can be considered to have merit.

Having said that, there may well be truth in my satire. I have no idea.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

The islamic fundamentalists just love people like you. They call you the "useful idiots".

True. And I find it immensly annoying that the policies of Islamic extremism are blamed on the exploits of America and the international community. Not only is it the wrong way to look at this, but it simply downgrades this highly sofisticated network into a bunch of babies and children who fight back against the big bully.

Homegrown terrorism, in London, was arguably simply a rebellion against the kuffar, with nothing to do directly with Iraq, as Hizb Ut-Tahrir and Abu Izzadeen's groups are about declaring you as a Muslim, not British.

But attacks on America are, I believe, an entire different kettle of fish. Bin Laden, to his peers, intended a devestating attack on America to 'get them running' from the Middle East. Gumboot, you are correct in your belief that their intended end is an Islamist domination, but 9/11 was not the means to this end, nor is the nuclear attack they are planning (Numerous intelligence implies this to be the next attempted strike).

Gumboot, I do wish you to ponder on why the Ayatollah were unable to carry out their fatwa against America before the military intervention started to increase in the Middle East. This doesn't mean the intervention's were not justified, nor does it imply we shouldn't stop our policies, but it should leave us aware that the attacks on 9/11 having nothing at all to do with US military intervention is quite simply very naive. But again, it depends, as Ron Paul's wimpish statement to leave the rest of the world alone and we wont be attacked is somewhat dumb and selfish.

I did get the source about Bin Laden not being all that concerned with the rest of the world from a book on Al Qeada, but it may have been in a different context, so you may be right.

Mike Scheur does share the view 9/11 was motivated by US intervention, and I'm inclined to listen to him, considering his exhuastive study of Bin Laden and creating the CIA Bin Laden group. But before any wimpy liberals get excited about his claims, he does feel strongly that pulling all our forces out of the middle east would not stop terrorist attacks.

The most important thing however, is that we do not do exactly what terrorists wish us to do, and what Oliver has been suckered into, say 'If we leave them alone, pull our forces out, we will be left alone'. Complete bollocks.

 

[strathmeyer]

‘They hate us because of the way we live,’ is such total nonsense. American’s foreign policies in particular America’s support for Israel is the reason we are in this endless war.

Then why aren't they attacking all of the other countries that support Israel?

 

[Undesired Walrus]

To the degree that modern islamic radicalism follows from the writings of Sayyid Qutb (he was certainly influential; I don't know the extent of his influence) it is fair to say that 9/11 did indeed happen because of nightclubs.

Ayman al-Zawahiri was a pupil and worshiped him, so I think it is safe to say he is very influential.

 

[gumboot]

Perhaps gumboot was responding in the spirit in which my post was intended, which is as a satire of motive-ascribing.

I just remember a comedian saying it once, and thought it was funny. I think it was meant to be ironic because the comedian was simultaneously being empathetic towards them, and stereotyping them.

-Gumboot

 

[Oliver]

What a surreal discussion. Antipathy against freedoms is no strong motive at all. But okay:

For those who believe in the "Hate our Freedom Terrorism":
Feel free to sum up the freedoms they hate and make them blow up themselves...

 

[gumboot]

But attacks on America are, I believe, an entire different kettle of fish. Bin Laden, to his peers, intended a devestating attack on America to 'get them running' from the Middle East. Gumboot, you are correct in your belief that their intended end is an Islamist domination, but 9/11 was not the means to this end, nor is the nuclear attack they are planning (Numerous intelligence implies this to be the next attempted strike).

To a degree I agree with you here. However, one think to remember is that the 9/11 attacks are not Al Qaeda's MO - they are Khalid Sheikh Mohamed's MO. KSM just flat out hates America (despite living the wild life himself). He joined the Muslim Brotherhood when he was 16.

Prior to the 9/11 attacks, Al Qaeda had never attacked American civilians, and had never attacked on US soil. That's something worth considering. Their targets were US military and government sites mainly in Africa and the Middle East.

KSM, by contrast, has always attacked civilians, as did his nephew Ramzi Yousef.

I personally think KSM convinced Al Qaeda that the US were more likely to cower if their civilians were attacked than if their military were attacked. I suspect Osama Bin Laden originally genuinely had specific grievances against the USA and Saudi Arabia, but has bowed to the wider and more extreme Islamist goals of his fellow Al Qaeda members.

I did get the source about Bin Laden not being all that concerned with the rest of the world from a book on Al Qeada, but it may have been in a different context, so you may be right.

Mike Scheur does share the view 9/11 was motivated by US intervention, and I'm inclined to listen to him, considering his exhuastive study of Bin Laden and creating the CIA Bin Laden group. But before any wimpy liberals get excited about his claims, he does feel strongly that pulling all our forces out of the middle east would not stop terrorist attacks.

I think the original goals of Osama Bin Laden and the goals of Al Qaeda as a group are potentially different. But let's not forget where Al Qaeda came from. Osama Bin Laden seized control of Maktab al-Khidamat because he wanted to use their funds to support a global Jihad while Abdullah Azzam wanted to focus on establishing an Islamic government in Afghanistan.

The most important thing however, is that we do not do exactly what terrorists wish us to do, and what Oliver has been suckered into, say 'If we leave them alone, pull our forces out, we will be left alone'. Complete bollocks.

I think Oliver is just grossly ignorant, to be honest. I wonder if he even knows about the failed July 31, 2006 terrorist attack against his own country?

Youssef al-Hajdib and Jihad Hamad (two Lebanese students in Germany) put suitcase bombs on trains (found near Dortmund and Koblenz) in response to the Mohammad cartoons. Fortunately they had assembled the bombs incorrectly and they didn't detonate.

-Gumboot

 

[WildCat]

For those who believe in the "Hate our Freedom Terrorism":
Feel free to sum up the freedoms they hate and make them blow up themselves...

The freedom to belong to any religion you wish, or not belong to a religion at all, is pretty much at the top of the list.

Muslims aren't particularly keen on that "freedom of religion" thing, perhaps you noticed?

 

[Undesired Walrus]

What a surreal discussion. Antipathy against freedoms is no strong motive at all. But okay:

For those who believe in the "Hate our Freedom Terrorism":
Feel free to sum up the freedoms they hate and make them blow up themselves...

Have a read of Syed Qutb's Milestones Oliver. It'll sum it up nicely. A lot about women's arses and so and so forth.

It's funny Oliver. You guys always go on about America not understanding Muslims, marginalising them, believing them to be simplistic cave dwellers etc.

But you are the one not understanding them.
You are the one marginalising them.
You are the one pointing them out to be simplistic cave dwellers.

Why?

Because you underestimate them and thus patronise them (I sum up the Islamists here) as a people. You underestimate their intellectual thought, and their overall aims.

They are not kids running around in a playground pinching the big bad bully.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

To a degree I agree with you here. However, one think to remember is that the 9/11 attacks are not Al Qaeda's MO - they are Khalid Sheikh Mohamed's MO. KSM just flat out hates America (despite living the wild life himself). He joined the Muslim Brotherhood when he was 16.

Prior to the 9/11 attacks, Al Qaeda had never attacked American civilians, and had never attacked on US soil. That's something worth considering. Their targets were US military and government sites mainly in Africa and the Middle East.

KSM, by contrast, has always attacked civilians, as did his nephew Ramzi Yousef.

I personally think KSM convinced Al Qaeda that the US were more likely to cower if their civilians were attacked than if their military were attacked. I suspect Osama Bin Laden originally genuinely had specific grievances against the USA and Saudi Arabia, but has bowed to the wider and more extreme Islamist goals of his fellow Al Qaeda members.

Interesting. The civilian thing, yea, that is very interesting. I hadn't thought of that before.

But the biggest problem we face is arguably ignorance. And whilst I may not agree, or come to realise your points yet, you see what we are doing here?

We are making this a more diverse and intellectual debate about the complex problems Islam and the rest of the world face, rather than Oliver's prefered route which is to say 'America=bad/Terrorist attacks/retaliation for bad America'.

Ok, I'll stop sucking my sack.

 

[Oakheart]

Terrorists attack us because they hate the way we live, and want everyone to live under the iron rule of their sick ideology.

Thus has always been the motivation for their attacks.

Whatever justification they give is nothing more than the flavour of the moment, mean to sway the minds of liberal westerners (which, after all, is the entire point of their attacks).

Us westerners are smarter than that. We have no real excuse for such gullibility. There is no justification and no legitimate cause for their acts of terror. To claim there is, is to cave in to their demands and encourage more attacks.

The goal of the Muslim Brotherhood (from whom almost all Islamic Terror groups originate, including Al Qaeda) is to establish an Islamic Caliphate from Spain to Indonesia. They have been waging this war for 80 years - well before the slights and injustices they claim as their excuse.

You're not suckered in by American propaganda. Don't be suckered in by terrorist propaganda.

-Gumboot

"I have a feeling that if we didn't support the atrocities that have been committed in the ME since WWI that they would not hate us at all. "

 

[Oakheart]

"I have a feeling that if we didn't support the atrocities that have been committed in the ME since WWI that they would not hate us at all. "

But then the whole thing does go back to the Dark ages well heck even back to Greece so ... but way of life is important to them as it is to any religious people. Our companies and military have been ignorant and careless when representing us to that population as well. Try southern Missouri for tolerance

 

[Oliver]

Have a read of Syed Qutb's Milestones Oliver. It'll sum it up nicely. A lot about women's arses and so and so forth.

It's funny Oliver. You guys always go on about America not understanding Muslims, marginalising them, believing them to be simplistic cave dwellers etc.

But you are the one not understanding them.
You are the one marginalising them.
You are the one pointing them out to be simplistic cave dwellers.

Why?

Because you underestimate them and thus patronise them (I sum up the Islamists here) as a people. You underestimate their intellectual thought, and their overall aims.

They are not kids running around in a playground pinching the big bad bully.

BS. I actually have muslim friends and believe it or not, talk to them.
Of course there is Antipathy against "western Freedoms" just because foreign policies. But Antipathy is Propaganda, not a motive to blow themselves up. That's a Fairytale - and a pretty lousy one, too.

For example:

1. Women in the western World are free, have the same rights, can marry whoever they want.

2. The US is protecting Israel.

3. The Army entered holy land.


Which of the above would be the most probable reason to attack the US?
You really think it's the insignificant Freedom??? Come on, you must be kidding...

 

[Undesired Walrus]

BS. I actually have muslim friends and believe it or not, talk to them.

Ah, the old "Some of my best friends are...". Question: Do you listen to them, or do you simply just talk and listen to what you want to hear in response?

But Antipathy is Propaganda, not a motive to blow themselves up. That's a Fairytale - and a pretty lousy one, too.

For example:

1. Women in the western World are free, have the same rights, can marry whoever they want.

2. The US is protecting Israel.

3. The Army entered holy land.


Which of the above would be the most probable reason to attack the US?

See what I mean about marginalising the issues? There is a lot more than 'Women can drive'. They aint all sand-dwellers buddy. The issue of 'freedom' is what is outlined in Syed Qutb's, 'Milestones'. Have a read. Qutb was Zawahiri's mentor.

You'll notice I do not absolve US foriegn policy from the attacks on the US, not do I absolve the Spanish intervention in Iraq from the Madrid bombings or the Soviet Union from the mujahideen rebellion. However, you seem to think this brand of resistance fighting is the sole and only cause of Islamic extremism. The Arab world is a big place. I can guarantee my customs and culture are a lot different from yours, the same goes for our friends across the pond. Do you think the same thought exists in Palestine as it does in Pakistan?

I don't believe 9/11 was a means to an end. But lets get it clear, they want a global Islamic state, that is their dream. And if you think sodding off from their lands is going to make the world, nor their own ordinary people any better, think again.

"
I'm sure by now the media's painted a suitable picture of me, this predictable propaganda machine will naturally try to put a spin on things to suit the government and to scare the masses into conforming to their power and wealth-obsessed agendas.

I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe.

Our driving motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer.

Our religion is Islam - obedience to the one true God, Allah, and following the footsteps of the final prophet and messenger Muhammad... This is how our ethical stances are dictated".