This Operation Northwoods BS

[CptColumbo]

It seems that many in the "Twoof Movement" think that the Operation Northwoods document is a smoking gun that proves 9/11 was an inside job, since it mentions planes being used as weapons and no one else (especially and arab) could have come up with this idea on their own. However, numerous works of fiction and real life events would contradict that belief.

There are, of course, the Japanese Kamikazee pilots of WWII. Crashing their planes into Allied ships and some buildings. Later they used specially modified planes, for added explosive effect.

In 1949 E. B. White wrote in Here is New York:

[First Paragraph]

On any person who desires such queer prizes, New York will bestow the gift of loneliness and the gift of privacy. It is this largess that accounts for the presence within the city's walls of a considerable section of the population; for the residents of Manhattan are to a large extent strangers who have pulled up stakes somewhere and come to town, seeking sanctuary or fulfillment or some greater or lesser grail. The capacity to make such dubious gifts is a mysterious quality of New York. It can destroy an individual, or it can fulfill him, depending a good deal on luck. No one should come to New York to live unless he is willing to be lucky.

[Fifth Paragraph from the end]

The subtlest change in New York is something people don't speak much about but that is in everyone's mind. The city, for the first time in its long history, is destructible. A single flight of planes no bigger than a wedge of geese can quickly end this island fantasy, burn the towers, crumble the bridges, turn the underground passages into lethal chambers, cremate the millions. The intimation of mortality is part of New York now: in the sound of jets overhead, in the black headlines of the latest edition.

Thomas Harris (author of the Hannibal Lector series) in Black Sunday of a plot by Palestinians to hijack a blimp and explode it over the Super Bowl, with the President in attendance.

In Debt of Honor by Tom Clancy, a JAL pilot crashes his plane (I think it was a 747) into the US Capitol during a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress.

An episode of "The Lonegunmen" dealt with a plot to hijack a plane and crash it into a building. I've never seen the episode, so someone else can fill in the details.

I am writing from an American perspective, perhaps others have more examples.

Perhaps they think that only a US military officer could conceive of such a plan. Which leads me to believe that what's happening is that members of the "Twoof Movement" are doing what the western intelligence community was doing prior to 9/11. Allowing their prejudices to underestimate the abilities of those not from the west to come up with a plan on their own. Some would argue that the same prejudices lead to the Pearl Harbor attack, and other would use the same prejudices to argue that the Japanese couldn't have done it on their own. There is also the fear that such a scheme could be implemented by a small group of people, rather than a vast government conspiracy.

 

[gumboot]

Duh... The US Government rejecting a plan to pretend to kill American civilians is clear evidence that the US Government would approve a plan to actually kill American civilians.

They, like, cancel each other out man. It's total evidence. Massive evidence.

-Gumboot

 

[Thunder]

One thing I love about how the 9-11 Deniers discuss Operation Northwoods is that they say "the American governmant planned to fake terrorist attacks against American planes and American cities and blame it on another country inorder to justify a war"

Now take that statemant, and add the relevant detail and you get "some at the Pentagon drew up a plan to fake attacks on airplanes and attacks on Miami inorder to justify an invasion of Cuba".

See, by adding the details, the plot seems less of a big deal. For one thing, Miami is part of Florida...not the United States .

Two, a false-flag attack, which killed no one, inorder to justify an attack on Cuba may have been supported by many people in the USA. Cuba being a Soviet client state would have been like Estonia being part of NATO during the 1960's. Such an act would have been seen as an act of war by the USSR.

But all that really matters, is that Operation Northwoods called for no one to be killed, and the plan never happened. If anything, it shows how when confronted with stupidity our nation takes the right path...well..thats unless you include Iraq.

 

[Gravy]

A correction: Northwoods didn't call for planes to be used as weapons.

IMO the biggest mistake the deniers make is to claim that Northwoods was a government plan. It was an idea concocted by a stridently anti-Communist general, and was summarily rejected by the govermnent.

 

[Thunder]

Operation Northwoods WAS rejected by McNamara. But Operation Mongoose WAS APPROVED by the Pentagon, JFK, and RFK. This included assassinations and other very very bad deeds.

 

[CptColumbo]

A correction: Northwoods didn't call for planes to be used as weapons.

Noted.

 

[babazaroni]

Operation Northwoods WAS rejected by McNamara. But Operation Mongoose WAS APPROVED by the Pentagon, JFK, and RFK. This included assassinations and other very very bad deeds.

But no false flag operations.

 

[Mince]

I don't get it. Since when is something done 40 years ago by a completely different administration not evidence of something done today by the current administration? Because administration A contemplated act B 40 years ago means administration C perpetrated act D in 2001. It's all too obvious, you simpletons.

 

[CptColumbo]

I don't get it. Since when is something done 40 years ago by a completely different administration not evidence of something done today by the current administration? Because administration A contemplated act B 40 years ago means administration C perpetrated act D in 2001. It's all too obvious, you simpletons.

It's the same for Popular Mechanics. Of course the actions of WR Hearst over a hundred years ago influence the editorial decisions today.

 

[SpitfireIX]

It seems that many in the "Twoof Movement" think that the Operation Northwoods document is a smoking gun that proves 9/11 was an inside job, since it mentions planes being used as weapons and no one else (especially and arab) could have come up with this idea on their own. . . .

I've gone 10 rounds with a conspiracist on BAUT and Apollohoax over Northwoods. Actually, there is no mention of using aircraft as weapons, other than "attacks" and harrassment by bogus MiGs. See here. One scenario involved faking the shooting down of a US airliner; another involved faking the shooting down of a US fighter.

Conspiracists generally make two highly dubious claims about Northwoods in an attempt to bolster their September 11 theories. First, the assertion is made that real friendly casualties were an option in the plan. A few of the scenarios do not specifically disavow friendly casualties; therefore, by the conspiracists' tortured reasoning, friendly casualties must necessarily have been intended. Never mind that no great stretch of the imagination is required to figure out how "we could blow up a ship in Guantanamo Bay" or "we could sink a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated)" could be accomplished with negligible risk of any casualties, or that there are no "we could shoot down a real airliner and blame Cuba" or "we could assassinate several prominent Cuban exiles and blame Cuba" scenarios.

Second, conspiracists claim that the purpose of Northwoods/Mongoose was to fool the American people into supporting a war against Cuba, despite the fact that the introduction clearly states that the purpose is to fool the UN, and the Soviet Union, into hesitating long enough for a US invasion to become a fait accompli.

The conspiracist I've debated on this has an mjd1982-like ability to read what he wishes to read into the memo, rather than what it actually says. At one point he even claimed that "We could blow up a ship in Guantanamo Bay" had to involve fake MiGs, because there was no other plausible method by which such an attack could be blamed on Cuba, and that the plan had to call for the crew to be aboard the ship when it was blown up, because there would have been too many witnesses otherwise. When I pointed out that fake MiGs would have required a large number of witnesses (the pilots, plus the ground crews), he responded, "Why wouldn't they have used drone aircraft?"

Some would argue that the same prejudices lead to the Pearl Harbor attack . . .

I'm not among them. No matter what many of the US Army and Navy rank-and-file might have believed, the senior leadership of the War and Navy Departments was well aware of Japanese capabilities. From a War Department intelligence bulletin of September 5, 1941:

The Japanese army is well trained and an efficient fighting force. Officers are well qualified to perform their various duties in peace and war. The staff has functioned well during difficult tactical operations in China. The enlisted men, although somewhat lacking in initiative, are well trained, experienced in combat, well disciplined, courageous and aggressive to the point of recklessness. The Japanese have been consistently successful in China from a tactical point of view and only combat with a modern army can determine Japan's relative efficiency compared to modern occidental armies. Japan's army is physically hardy and psychologically inspired by loyalty to the Emperor, devotion to duty and a fanatical patriotism which make it a dangerous foe on the Asian continent or nearby islands.

The Japanese Army and Navy air forces have made rapid progress since 1937. Personnel strength of Army and Navy air forces is 55,000 officers and men and the two services have a combined plane strength of approximately 3,743 combat planes. The Army squadrons number 114 and the Navy has 124 squadrons. Plane design has lagged, but lack of formidable opposition has left them undisputed air superiority. Four years of continuous air operations have increased the efficiency of Japanese aviation in no small degree. Recent acquisition of German planes [note: this is incorrect] and technical advisors has contributed to Japanese air proficiency.

The Japanese Army is the best equipped army in Asia. Its equipment, however, is inferior to that of any of the modern European armies. . . . Personal equipment appears to be sufficient and in good condition but there is a shortage of organizational equipment such as tanks, and other mechanized equipment, antiaircraft weapons and modern artillery.

Japan has a navy consisting of approximately 180,000 men and officers exclusive of about 20,000 in the naval air corps. Naval strength comprises over a million tons already built and nearly 500,000 tons building. The navy is divided into two main divisions: the Combined Fleet and the Japanese Naval Forces in China. The latter consists of the North Central and South China Fleets. The Combined Fleet is based in home waters.

The Japanese naval personnel is [sic] well trained-a training equal to that of the British and American navies. The Japanese navy is modern, well balanced, and ready for prompt service. It is relatively strong in aircraft carriers and tenders; it would be a formidable opponent to the navy of any power . . .

The reason the Pearl Harbor attack was such a spectacular success was, in the main, that the Army and Navy commanders in Hawaii simply dropped the ball. The Army assumed the Navy knew where the Japanese carriers were; the Navy assumed the Army was properly alert for a surprise attack.

. . . and other would use the same prejudices to argue that the Japanese couldn't have done it on their own.

There is a subtle racism that pervades most Pearl Harbor conspiracy theories, far more even than those dealing with the September 11 attacks, IMO. Saying that a relatively small group of Arab malcontents couldn't pull off a complicated suicide hijacking plot is one thing. Claiming that the best and brightest of the Imperial Japanese Navy were too stupid to follow even the most basic principles of operational and communications security in connection with a mission of the highest risk and importance is quite another thing.

 

[R.Mackey]

The reason the Pearl Harbor attack was such a spectacular success was, in the main, that the Army and Navy commanders in Hawaii simply dropped the ball. The Army assumed the Navy knew where the Japanese carriers were; the Navy assumed the Army was properly alert for a surprise attack.

I'd argue that the main reason the Pearl Harbor attack was such a success is that the IJN was no creampuff. They did essentially the same thing to the British Eastern Fleet at Ceylon about five months later, with only moderate operational surprise.

While I have no doubt that the US Navy and particularly the Army Air Force would have acquitted themselves a bit better had they not been caught flat-footed at Pearl, I suspect the outcome of the battle would have been materially similar regardless.

 

[babazaroni]

deleted

 

[Corsair 115]

The reason the Pearl Harbor attack was such a spectacular success was, in the main, that the Army and Navy commanders in Hawaii simply dropped the ball. The Army assumed the Navy knew where the Japanese carriers were; the Navy assumed the Army was properly alert for a surprise attack.

My understanding is that another contributing reason was that the U.S. expected Japan to initiate hostilities in the Philippines. Which, interestingly enough, was the original Japanese war plan. Attack the Philippines, draw the U.S. Navy into Japanese-controlled waters, and (hopefully) defeat it a pitched battle. This original plan was only changed to a first strike on Pearl Harbor at Yamamoto's insistence.

 

[gumboot]

Another major factor of the success of the Pearl Harbor attack was just little mistakes and things.

For example the Army commander at the airfield was worried about sabotage from local Japanese. The best formation to protect aircraft from ground sabotage is also where they are most vulnerable to air attack, and the formation in which they are best protected from air attack is when they are most vulnerable to sabotage on the ground.

Likewise, the Navy thought moving the Pacific Fleet to Pearl Harbor was a bad idea, and they felt very vulnerable there. Because the carriers were away, they couldn't put the Battleships to sea, which is where they would be safest.

They also didn't count on the Japanese using torpedoes in such shallow water.

Washington DC also was giving the commanders at Pearl Habor very obscure and conflicting directions. They didn't spell out what was happening, and they'd say things like "Be alert but don't anticipate an attack".

-Gumboot

 

[Corsair 115]

Because the carriers were away, they couldn't put the Battleships to sea, which is where they would be safest.

And the carriers being away was just a stroke of fortunate luck. The Enterprise was supposed to have been back in port by Sunday but was delayed so it didn't arrive until hours after the attack.

Another item of interest is that the radar which detected the Japanese raid when it was incoming could also have been used to track the departing aircraft back to their carriers thus giving away their position.

 

[Dog Town]

Another item of interest is that the radar which detected the Japanese raid when it was incoming could also have been used to track the departing aircraft back to their carriers thus giving away their position.

With a MAJORITY, and I don't say it lighly, fragged, what good would it have done? The Enterprise? I doubt the risk, to be worthy!

 

[Orphia Nay]

Twoofers love their dirty little memes such as "false flag operation". They call Northwoods, Gulf of Tonkin and the Reichstag fire "false flag ops". If it can be labelled, it must be teh twoof.

Nevermind the fact that they twist the truth to fit their delusions.

Plus, they think that if there were such false flag operations, that proves gubmints are bad, and 9/11 was one too (despite the fact that there's no evidence).

Nevermind the fact that (eek, I'm going out on a limb here ) governments actually do good things for people a lot of the time. (Should I get my coat?)

 

[Graham2001]

An episode of "The Lonegunmen" dealt with a plot to hijack a plane and crash it into a building. I've never seen the episode, so someone else can fill in the details.

It was the pilot episode, basically the unknown baddies fit some kind of remote control device to a passenger jet and try to fly it into the North Tower (I think) at night. Our heroes save the day using a computer chip they stole from a company called EComCon.

I am writing from an American perspective, perhaps others have more examples.

The RPG Unknown Armies had an adventure called 'Fly to Heaven' the plot of which involved someone trying to turn himself into the 'god of terrorism' by crashing a 747 into the Sears Tower in Chicago. (Strangely enough, after 9/11 a disturbed man tried to break into the cockpit of an airliner because he was convinced that the pilot was going to do just that.)

I know of at least one other RPG adventure that was actually rewritten after 9/11 because of similarities between the plot and what happened.

And finally Dale Browns 'Storming Heaven' has the baddies try to fly a remote controlled 747 tricked out to look like Air Force One into the Presidents Mansion.

 

[Checkmite]

All Operation Northwoods proves is 1) that what twoofers refer to as the "false-flag" notion has been thunk up before by military advisors, and 2) it was such a stupid idea, that the military immediately rejected it and declassified it, making it available in a public archive where the YouTube Special Commando Task Force could find it.