RE: Oliver "They don't attack us for our freedoms".

[Undesired Walrus]

RE: Oliver "They don't attack us for our freedoms".

Oliver, whilst I do not agree that September the 11th was primarily motivated by Homer Simpson's having a beer whilst watching "America's most epileptic animals", I was slightly worried that you would subscribe (I cannot find the exact quote) that they do not do any of this because of our way of life. Granted, the fatwa issued by the Iranian ayatollah in the 80's because of the American way of life could not pick up on any momentum because of a limited US military involvement. But past 9/11, would you not agree the torch has passed, and stuff like July 7th and the fertiliser plot below may simply be devoid of retaliation for the Iraq War?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6466817.stm

JAWAD AKBAR: "You could get jobs like this, yeah, like for example the biggest nightclub in central London. Where now here, yeah, now no one can even turn around and say 'Oh they were innocent,' - those slags dancing around.

OMAR KHYAM: "If you got a job in a bar, yeah, or club, say the Ministry of Sound, what are you planning to do there then?"

JAWAD AKBAR: "Blow the whole thing up."

OMAR KHYAM: "Right."

 

[Oliver]

Oliver, whilst I do not agree that September the 11th was primarily motivated by Homer Simpson's having a beer whilst watching "America's most epileptic animals", I was slightly worried that you would subscribe (I cannot find the exact quote) that they do not do any of this because of our way of life. Granted, the fatwa issued by the Iranian ayatollah in the 80's because of the American way of life could not pick up on any momentum because of a limited US military involvement. But past 9/11, would you not agree the torch has passed, and stuff like July 7th and the fertiliser plot below may simply be devoid of retaliation for the Iraq War?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6466817.stm

Are you saying 9/11 happened because Nightclubs - or - that they hate American freedoms like this one: "We in the US have the Freedom that no one can put an embargo on us or invade our country."

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Are you saying 9/11 happened because Nightclubs - or - that they hate American freedoms like this one: "We in the US have the Freedom that no one can put an embargo on us or invade our country."

I didn't suggest anything about 9/11. I'm asking if you would subscribe to a belief that the fertiliser bomb plot, amongst others since, have been equally about imposing the islamist way of life as us/uk intervention in the holy lands.

 

[Texas]

Are you saying 9/11 happened because Nightclubs - or - that they hate American freedoms like this one: "We in the US have the Freedom that no one can put an embargo on us or invade our country."

The car bomb discovered in London was outside of a nightclub that just happened to be having "ladies night". Hmmm.

 

[gumboot]

Terrorists attack us because they hate the way we live, and want everyone to live under the iron rule of their sick ideology.

Thus has always been the motivation for their attacks.

Whatever justification they give is nothing more than the flavour of the moment, mean to sway the minds of liberal westerners (which, after all, is the entire point of their attacks).

Us westerners are smarter than that. We have no real excuse for such gullibility. There is no justification and no legitimate cause for their acts of terror. To claim there is, is to cave in to their demands and encourage more attacks.

The goal of the Muslim Brotherhood (from whom almost all Islamic Terror groups originate, including Al Qaeda) is to establish an Islamic Caliphate from Spain to Indonesia. They have been waging this war for 80 years - well before the slights and injustices they claim as their excuse.

You're not suckered in by American propaganda. Don't be suckered in by terrorist propaganda.

-Gumboot

 

[stilicho]

The goal of the Muslim Brotherhood (from whom almost all Islamic Terror groups originate, including Al Qaeda) is to establish an Islamic Caliphate from Spain to Indonesia. They have been waging this war for 80 years - well before the slights and injustices they claim as their excuse.
-Gumboot

It would be tough to agree that this "war" has been going on for just 80 years. You are Harbi as am I, and our ancestors have been for about 13 centuries.

Spain to Indonesia is an understatement.

 

[egslim]

Terrorists attack us because they hate the way we live, and want everyone to live under the iron rule of their sick ideology.

Thus has always been the motivation for their attacks.

This is just ridiculous. Assigning motives to a single person is tricky, assigning them to an entire group as diverse as 'terrorists' is impossible.

Let's break it down. Terrorism is the act of inciting fear in civilians through attacks targeted at them, by a non-state entity, with the purpose of achieving some political goal.
Hence terrorism is a method, which can and is practiced by widely different groups. Including anti-abortionists, Irish seperatists, and fundamentalist Muslems.

Assuming you meant the general definition of terrorists your statement is demonstrably wrong: The IRA attacked London without any desire for that city to become part of Ireland, or convert the population to Catholicism. But now we have established that terrorists can and do attack people for other reasons than the way they live.

Even if we limit ourselves to Islamic terrorists, that's still a very diverse group. It includes both Sunnis and Shiites, from a whole range of nationalities, each with a different personal background. And thus with different motives.
As we already know some terrorists attack people for other reasons than to convert them to their ideology, it makes sense that for a number of Islamic terrorists the same is true.

Here's a thought experiment: Suppose in Iraq the US would try to rebuild all mosques as churches and replace the Korans with Bibles. What do you expect would be the effect on the threat of terrorist attacks in the US?
If you believe all Islamic terrorists attack us because they hate the way we live, there would be no effect - since such measures don't effect the way we live.

 

[Phillybee]

The people who invoke terrorism are simply interested in creating a spectacle, thus getting them repeated play on the news networks for as long as they can (the best so far being 9/11/01). I can't think of any other reason for attacking western europe/us. The casualties of 9/11/01 are only slightly less than the casualties of the entire Iraqi war ( for the US). What's the message? That they are willing to sacrifice their own people for ours until we convert? Their own mothers and children?

We should convert? This is never going to happen, and, as an atheist, I couldn't give a rat's behind about the Christians OR any other religion. Even so, I should join a religion that kills and places its own heritage in harm?

80 years? Muslim Botherhood? These ideals are...ideals. In 80 more years, I predict that Iran will not be a Theocracy. The youth of Iran will want to join the rest of the world, and they make up most of the Iranian population.

I believe that the this "message" from the "X Brotherhood", however, is completely lost. News consumers absorb the message from the news writers, not the news makers.

There are obviously some extreme radicals. What would happen after a nuclear detonation in a US/British city? It sickens me to think that a very small segment of people would even consider killing so many, in the name of their religion.

Who would join such a religion, unless they had lost everything?

 

[PixyMisa]

Are you saying 9/11 happened because Nightclubs - or - that they hate American freedoms like this one: "We in the US have the Freedom that no one can put an embargo on us or invade our country."

To the degree that modern islamic radicalism follows from the writings of Sayyid Qutb (he was certainly influential; I don't know the extent of his influence) it is fair to say that 9/11 did indeed happen because of nightclubs.

 

[Oliver]

To the degree that modern islamic radicalism follows from the writings of Sayyid Qutb (he was certainly influential; I don't know the extent of his influence) it is fair to say that 9/11 did indeed happen because of nightclubs.

Yes, and Scientology is a religion.

Hotlinking provided and allowed by xs.to

 

[gumboot]

It would be tough to agree that this "war" has been going on for just 80 years.

I was meaning specifically the 20th Century Muslim Brotherhood-inspired Islamic Terrorism, which began in the 1920's.

-Gumboot

 

[gumboot]

This is just ridiculous. Assigning motives to a single person is tricky, assigning them to an entire group as diverse as 'terrorists' is impossible.

This thread is about Radical Islamic Terrorism. They share a common ideology and a common goal - Islamification of the globe.

Even if we limit ourselves to Islamic terrorists, that's still a very diverse group. It includes both Sunnis and Shiites, from a whole range of nationalities, each with a different personal background. And thus with different motives.

All of the Radical Islamic Terrorist groups attacking the west have the same share goal - they wish to establish their religion globally. They wish to kill anyone who does not convert.

Here's a thought experiment: Suppose in Iraq the US would try to rebuild all mosques as churches and replace the Korans with Bibles. What do you expect would be the effect on the threat of terrorist attacks in the US?

Given that it directly endangers their goal of reestablishing the Caliphate, I would imagine it would make them rather angry. Although I doubt it would make much difference to the USA since none of them really possess the means any more to attack the USA.

-Gumboot

 

[varwoche]

Terrorists attack us because they hate the way we live ... Thus has always been the motivation for their attacks.

Whatever justification they give is nothing more than the flavour of the moment, mean to sway the minds of liberal westerners (which, after all, is the entire point of their attacks).

According to the preeminent expert on al Qaeda -- Michael Scheuer, former head of the CIA bin Laden unit, author of Imperial Hubris and the antithesis of a liberal -- you are dead wrong.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

According to the preeminent expert on al Qaeda -- Michael Scheuer, former head of the CIA bin Laden unit, author of Imperial Hubris and the antithesis of a liberal -- you are dead wrong.

I like Michael Scheur, he is a vastly intelligent guy.

But let's break it down here. My OP was directed to Oliver who believes the terrorist actions are entirely motivated by politics and nothing to do with a way of life.

I'd disagree with Gumboot on most of his points, given that Bin Laden really doesn't care what is going on in the rest of the world. Sure, they dislike and disaprove of our way of life, but they dont really care as long as they keep out of their lands. Bin Laden is focused on getting rid of Israel. An example, again, is the Ayatollah giving a fatwa towards the US in the 80's but not being able to carry it out because of no US military involvement in the middle east to the extent it was 20 years later.
9/11 was intended to get the US running, not turn it into a Muslim state. Thus why they intend a nuclear strike, rather than independent bombings. I mean, Gumboot, look at the Madrid bombings, was that simply because they hated their way of life? No, it was to influence the public opinion and get their troops out of Iraq. Al Qeada won.

But, it is more likely that the recent attacks in the UK, and in Indonesian nightclubs, are the result of a hatred of the way of life. It is different in the UK, as we have a second generation of Muslim citizens who are born as British. But seeing how Islam is seen as a race, this may be difficult for them. Groups like Hizb Ut-Tahrir play off this, and wished to establish a Muslim state of Britain long before unpopular ventures in the Middle East.

So, Oliver, I wish you to rethink your belief that they do all of this because of our military involvements. In the US, sure, given the size and scale of the attack, but in London and Bali, I doubt it is the single cause.

The planned attacks in London is very much an attack on Western way of life, didn't you pick up anything from "Those slags dancing around"?

 

[Zep]

I'm going out on a limb here and saying that the only reasoning behind any of these attacks is the continuance of the primitive culture of "the law of the sword" by bigger means.

Put simply, these people believe that the ONLY way to influence other people is at the point of a sword. They have no means of intelligent discussion - violence is their only answer.

Nor is it new - T.E. Lawrence had the devil's own job "uniting" the Arabs in 1917 to a common goal purely because of this commitment to the rule of the sword. Before then, it was a series of one bloody tribal war and reprisal after another between the Arabs themselves. While the film version grossly oversimplified the situation, the reality was that inter-tribal conflict, and even family in-fighting (for the Caliphate in Mecca) was a major stumbling block throughout even that short campaign.

This is still visible today, all too graphically. Witness the "tribal" warfare in Gaza only very recently. The differing Arab groups solved their internal differences the traditional way - with bloodshed and violence.

And thus it is how they think they will convince the west, with whom they disagree on major points. That they have access to much more sophisticated killing mechanisms is almost beside the point - the intention is literally the same.

 

[gumboot]

I'd disagree with Gumboot on most of his points, given that Bin Laden really doesn't care what is going on in the rest of the world. Sure, they dislike and disaprove of our way of life, but they dont really care as long as they keep out of their lands.

That must be why Bin Laden went to Afghanistan, and why Al Qaeda sent so many of its fighters to Bosnia and Chechnya and Somalia.

Osama Bin Laden is only one of many Islamic terrorists. He comes from the Muslim Brotherhood ideology, as do the rest of them. They're operating in every corner of the globe. Their short term goal is to finish what their Nazi friends started and exterminate the Jews. But that's only the prologue.

It would be very foolish to think that people like Osama Bin Laden are fixated on Israel, and care nothing about the rest of the world. He has, in the past, shown great awareness of what is happening around the world, and takes note of the various foreign policies of the west. He has repeatedly cited the US withdrawal from Somalia after the Battle of Mogadishu as a key motivator for his terrorist plots.

-Gumboot

 

[MaGZ]

Terrorists attack us because they hate the way we live, and want everyone to live under the iron rule of their sick ideology.

Thus has always been the motivation for their attacks.

Whatever justification they give is nothing more than the flavour of the moment, mean to sway the minds of liberal westerners (which, after all, is the entire point of their attacks).

Us westerners are smarter than that. We have no real excuse for such gullibility. There is no justification and no legitimate cause for their acts of terror. To claim there is, is to cave in to their demands and encourage more attacks.

The goal of the Muslim Brotherhood (from whom almost all Islamic Terror groups originate, including Al Qaeda) is to establish an Islamic Caliphate from Spain to Indonesia. They have been waging this war for 80 years - well before the slights and injustices they claim as their excuse.

You're not suckered in by American propaganda. Don't be suckered in by terrorist propaganda.

-Gumboot

‘They hate us because of the way we live,’ is such total nonsense. American’s foreign policies in particular America’s support for Israel is the reason we are in this endless war.

 

[tkingdoll]

Actually, I interpret the 'slags' comment, the attempted attack on Ladies Night at the nightclub this weekend, and the promise of so many virgins for eternity, as meaning the motivation for terrorist attacks is sexual frustration.

Not to mention the fact that Muslim women are covered up. Nothing to ogle at, you see. Sexual liberation is the key to solving this problem. We need to instigate some burkha-burning and get nudity into Bollywood movies.

 

[gumboot]

Actually, I interpret the 'slags' comment, the attempted attack on Ladies Night at the nightclub this weekend, and the promise of so many virgins for eternity, as meaning the motivation for terrorist attacks is sexual frustration.

Not to mention the fact that Muslim women are covered up. Nothing to ogle at, you see. Sexual liberation is the key to solving this problem. We need to instigate some burkha-burning and get nudity into Bollywood movies.

Heh heh.

Someone once pointed out... consider from their point of view...

You're a young Muslim male. You can't have sex, and you're not allowed alcohol.

It's Friday night, you've got nothing to do, there's sand in every orifice, you're already pissed off, and you go browse on the internet and come across an American beer commercial displaying a luscious scantily clad female.

No wonder they're angry at the west!

-Gumboot

 

[gumboot]

‘They hate us because of the way we live,’ is such total nonsense. American’s foreign policies in particular America’s support for Israel is the reason we are in this endless war.

This "endless war" started before Israel existed, let alone before the USA actually supported Israel. I take it you think Muslim extremists are capable of predicting the future?

-Gumboot