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Pigasus Awards & Sheldrake

Say folks, why don't we do our own telephone telepathy experiment? One of us could be the callee, four of us the callers, and one could randomly select the caller and the time to place the call. We'd have to trust each other, but if we ain't got trust, what have we got?

~~ Paul
 
Bfinn said:
Yup, I read about these experiments a while back and the results are extremely interesting & (if true) alarming. Because this would show that causation can go backwards in time - which is philosophically problematic.
Let's see how this might work, psi-wise:
  • I could be precognising the picture when it's ultimately shown to me.
  • I could be remote viewing the mechanism as it selects the picture.
  • I could be using psychokinesis to force the picture selection.
Only the first method requires retrocausation.

~~ Paul
 
I can't imagine how this could possibly work unless the basic experiment is solidly replicable and there is a good theory about how the factors interact. If you do this with a psi experiment, you're just going to be scratching your head wondering whether you've introduced a leak.

Actually, there are different techniques to handles various types of situations. As long as you can put together any combination of factors you want, it's not too hard to design. Where it gets tricky is when you have specific areas you want to avoid because it is well know the results suck in that area - which can mean anything from the client already knows that's a waste of time and doesn't want to spend money collecting data on it to legimate safety concerns like explosions occurring.

Say folks, why don't we do our own telephone telepathy experiment? One of us could be the callee, four of us the callers, and one could randomly select the caller and the time to place the call. We'd have to trust each other, but if we ain't got trust, what have we got?

I'm game if you are.
 
Beth said:
Actually, there are different techniques to handles various types of situations. As long as you can put together any combination of factors you want, it's not too hard to design.
This sounds a bit glib to me, but I'm no experiment designer. Are you sure you're not talking about industrial experiments, rather than scientific experiments to test theories? I suppose some of the techniques apply across the board.

I'm game if you are.
Anyone else want to give it a try?

~~ Paul
 
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It is what the original research was investigating. Read the original Sheldrake survey paper. I'll quote from the abstract.

"Many people claim to have thought about a particular person who then calls them on the telephone."
http://www.sheldrake.org/Articles&Papers/papers/telepathy/pdf/telephone_telcalls.pdf

Reading the rest of the survey, I think its clear that people are refering to callers whom they already have aquaintance with, rather than, say, wrong number callers. I don't think anyone who took part in that survey, if asked "have you ever known when a wrong number caller is about to call you", would answer yes.
And here is the heart of the issue. The receivers seem to think that this "above average" success rate is somehow paranormal. When it is actually the results you would expect by chance if they limit the callers to a small set of people they already know will call them at some time! They are merely counting the hits and not the misses.

And precisely as you say, they do obviously think it absurd to try to guess who was calling if they don't know them! And so, Mr Smith, do we.

Furthermore, how would you propose to design an experiment with 100 unknown callers and a few known callers that would not involve a "guessing game"?
By phrasing it this way, you are now presupposing that the claimants cannot perform as claimed. ;) I would share the general skepticism that indeed that a guessing-game is what it would be. However I am open to accepting proof to the contrary.

BTW, I'm not saying that using 100 unknown callers is invalid but you seem to think that using only 4 known callers is somehow invalid. I can't see where you've explained this.
The claim being tested is "With a long-term 25% success rate [for example], I know whoever is calling before I pick up." The claim NOT being tested is "With a 25% success rate, I can pick which 1 person out of 4 known people is calling before I pick up." Can you not see the difference?



Correct, especially if the recipient can name the callers! However, such an experiment is stupendously unrealitic.
Again, you presuppose the claimants' abilities! ;) And again, the skeptic in me agrees, but stranger things have happened at sea.



In which case we would have an unsuccessful result. So where does "unwitting collusion" come into it?
Let's say that the experiment runs for 24 hours. If Aunty Em (one of the set of callers) usually calls after dinnertime, and a call comes in to the recipient about that timeframe, do you think the odds will change of guessing the right caller?

Clearly it needs to be rather more controlled than that, don't you agree?
 
This sounds a bit glib to me, but I'm no experiment designer. Are you sure you're not talking about industrial experiments, rather than scientific experiments to test theories? I suppose some of the techniques apply across the board.

The design techniques for handling multiple variables don't change. The problem is the noise. Experimental design can't eliminate that, just try to limit it and quantify it. Recall that when you fail to reject the null, it doesn't imply the effect isn't there, it implies that if an effect exists, it's smaller than the noise in the system. The main advantage of testing one variable at a time is it reduces the noise.
 
The design techniques for handling multiple variables don't change. The problem is the noise. Experimental design can't eliminate that, just try to limit it and quantify it. Recall that when you fail to reject the null, it doesn't imply the effect isn't there, it implies that if an effect exists, it's smaller than the noise in the system. The main advantage of testing one variable at a time is it reduces the noise.
Shush! We are trying to teach basic research logic 101 here! :)
 
Say folks, why don't we do our own telephone telepathy experiment? One of us could be the callee, four of us the callers, and one could randomly select the caller and the time to place the call. We'd have to trust each other, but if we ain't got trust, what have we got?

~~ Paul

Sorry I'm out. I like to see myself as a trusting individual but doing the experiment as you describe, as Zep and I are discussing, opens the door for collusion. Imagine if you got great results. Would you accept them? Would a wider readership accept them? Or would collusion be brought in as an explanation? If the latter then I would see the experiment as a waste of time :( I think the latter is inevitable.

The main problem I have with Sheldrake's latest set of internet experiments is that he does precisely this. He is basically inviting participants to conduct an experiment whereby two people each look at a separate computer screen that could display two possible pictures, the same pair of pictures for each person. One person has to guess which picture the other is looking at. So Sheldrake is looking to see if the hit rate is higher when the pictures are the same, a kind of reinforcement model of telepathy. A good experimental idea, except its done over the internet! Which means both lookers could be in the same room for all we know! Even if its not deliberate cheating, then some people could simply not realise the significance of leakage and simply sit at opposite ends of a room or something, within earshot and in view of body language etc. Its just highly counterproductive to psi research IMO. Even if psi were really at work in such an experiment, there's bound to be an inflated hit rate due to these problems and there's no way the sceptical community should accept the data because of that.
 
And here is the heart of the issue. The receivers seem to think that this "above average" success rate is somehow paranormal. When it is actually the results you would expect by chance if they limit the callers to a small set of people they already know will call them at some time! They are merely counting the hits and not the misses.

And precisely as you say, they do obviously think it absurd to try to guess who was calling if they don't know them! And so, Mr Smith, do we.

For once I'm almost in agreement with you. In "the field", so to speak, instances where people think they know telepathically when someone they know is about to call is very likely to be due to a combination of selective memory, as you say, and implicit knowledge about calling habits IMO. I think there may be an underlying ESP effect but its going to masked out by such things. The only way to find out if there is an underlying ESP effect is to do the experiments.

So we are also discussing valid experimental methodologies for telephone telepathy. You seem to think that people claim to simple know who is calling them in advance, irrespective of whether they know the person or not. I disagree. People claim to know specific people who are about to call them, which means we should be using known callers in the experiment. By all means, propose a design that uses 100 unknown callers and 4 known. As long as you have a means to work out a hit rate against chance and have the controls in place then its a valid experiment. However, an equally valid experiment can be devised just using known callers.

By phrasing it this way, you are now presupposing that the claimants cannot perform as claimed. ;)

Not really. I think you are presupposing precisely how the claimants must perform in order to design an unrealistic experiment. You seem to be saying that an experiment with known callers is invalid because you think that claimants must be able to predict unknown callers too. Perhaps they can, perhaps they can't. Whichever way, experiments can be designed with just known callers or a mix.

I would share the general skepticism that indeed that a guessing-game is what it would be. However I am open to accepting proof to the contrary.

I see. When you say "guessing game" you mean that psi is not present. I meant that an experimental design must involve a comparison with chance expectation, thus introducing the possibility that the hit rate observed was due to chance (ie guesses). Let me re-phrase the question - how would you propose your experiment, using 100 unknown callers and 4 known callers, so that a positive result is not based on a comparison with chance expectation?

The claim being tested is "With a long-term 25% success rate [for example], I know whoever is calling before I pick up." The claim NOT being tested is "With a 25% success rate, I can pick which 1 person out of 4 known people is calling before I pick up." Can you not see the difference?

I can certainly see the difference between the two hypotheses you have proposed above. However, both hypotheses are perfectly testable, which is my point. Your objection here is that you want the first hypothesis to be the one that is being tested rather than the second. That's fine, but I think the second has a better chance of introducing psi as a factor simply because the survey suggests that the effect happens most (if not all the time) with known callers.

Again, you presuppose the claimants' abilities! ;)

Not really. I'm going with what the Sheldrake survey suggests.

Let's say that the experiment runs for 24 hours. If Aunty Em (one of the set of callers) usually calls after dinnertime, and a call comes in to the recipient about that timeframe, do you think the odds will change of guessing the right caller?

Clearly it needs to be rather more controlled than that, don't you agree?

Of course it needs to be more controlled than that! Surely, you haven't been arguing with me all this time assuming that the calling times and callers aren't randomised!?
 
I

I could be remote viewing the mechanism as it selects the picture.

Interesting interpretation. A few seconds before image presentation, this would have to involve unconscious remote viewing of a future target image, which in turn causes a normal flow of causation to the autonomic nervous response prior to image presentation. So we still have a physical relationship that seems to involve a temporal anomaly. Not sure which way causation would flow :confused:

I could be using psychokinesis to force the picture selection.

Why would this not involve retrocausation? The anomalous autonomic response occurs before picture presentation. If PK occurs as a relationship between the RNG output and observation of the target picture, then we may still need retrocausation to explain the autonomic response before target presentation.
 
Yup, I read about these experiments a while back and the results are extremely interesting & (if true) alarming. Because this would show that causation can go backwards in time - which is philosophically problematic.

I think this is where physicists are needed. Would it necessarily involve causation? I hate to open the can of worms that is drawing parallels with quantum mechanics, but we do have some conventional QM experiments that seem to show some wierd temporal effects with entanglement. Not being a physicist, I don't know whether such experiments are to be interpreted as correlations or causations :confused:
 
For once I'm almost in agreement with you. In "the field", so to speak, instances where people think they know telepathically when someone they know is about to call is very likely to be due to a combination of selective memory, as you say, and implicit knowledge about calling habits IMO. I think there may be an underlying ESP effect but its going to masked out by such things. The only way to find out if there is an underlying ESP effect is to do the experiments.

So we are also discussing valid experimental methodologies for telephone telepathy. You seem to think that people claim to simple know who is calling them in advance, irrespective of whether they know the person or not. I disagree. People claim to know specific people who are about to call them, which means we should be using known callers in the experiment. By all means, propose a design that uses 100 unknown callers and 4 known. As long as you have a means to work out a hit rate against chance and have the controls in place then its a valid experiment. However, an equally valid experiment can be devised just using known callers.
The blindingly obvious is right before you eyes if you but look. I'll spell it out for you, but this is for the benefit of the slow lurkers.

These claimants DO claim that they know who is calling. What they FAIL TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT is that they are likely to be performing no better than chance because they fail to understand their "testing environment". In effect, they are counting the hits and not the misses, in a biased testing process.

Furthermore, if anyone uses a testing methodology that is basically just a guessing-game, it is quite conceivable that you CAN score significantly better than chance in a few tests in a series. Even tossing heads-and-tails randomly is bound to produce long runs of heads or tails at some point.

Now put these two points together, please.

We have a bunch of innocent folks who would not know an unbiased test if they tripped over it.

We have a testing environment that is implicitly biased heavily in favour of them making correct selections.

We have them counting their hits and not the misses.

We have them being astounded that they then think they have ESP or psi or whatever.

We have them making public claims on that basis.

We have the usual psi crowd going all gooey that this is the real deal, but not doing any actual research of evaluation.

We then have Sheldrake weighing in on the subject and implying there may be something in it by conducting equally skewed testing.

Finally we have these basic flaws in his work pointed out that not even the greenest researcher would have overlooked. In fact, so glaringly wrong that it seems all the more incredible that Sheldrake really did make such a boob. Instead, one starts to get the impression that it was deliberate, in a blatant attempt to publish as a means of retaining tenure, rather than publish to expand the sum of human knowledge.

This is not the first time such glaring mistakes, and possible paper-milling, have been made by psi researchers, incidentally.

I am forever reminded of the story of The Emperor's New Clothes when I read these sorts of reports, incidentally...
 
I think this is where physicists are needed. Would it necessarily involve causation? I hate to open the can of worms that is drawing parallels with quantum mechanics, but we do have some conventional QM experiments that seem to show some wierd temporal effects with entanglement. Not being a physicist, I don't know whether such experiments are to be interpreted as correlations or causations :confused:
Please. Do NOT start with that. You will only end up looking silly. Honestly, it's not worth the effort.
 
Zep said:
The claim being tested is "With a long-term 25% success rate [for example], I know whoever is calling before I pick up." The claim NOT being tested is "With a 25% success rate, I can pick which 1 person out of 4 known people is calling before I pick up." Can you not see the difference?
I can't. Could you describe the two claims in more detail?

Edited to add: Ah, are we talking about those people who think they can tell who is calling them in everyday life, not in an experimental setting?

~~ Paul
 
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DavidSmith said:
Sorry I'm out. I like to see myself as a trusting individual but doing the experiment as you describe, as Zep and I are discussing, opens the door for collusion. Imagine if you got great results. Would you accept them? Would a wider readership accept them? Or would collusion be brought in as an explanation? If the latter then I would see the experiment as a waste of time I think the latter is inevitable.
I was not suggesting we publish the results. I agree that no one outside our group should trust them. I just think it would be fun.

~~ Paul
 
DavidSmith said:
Interesting interpretation. A few seconds before image presentation, this would have to involve unconscious remote viewing of a future target image, which in turn causes a normal flow of causation to the autonomic nervous response prior to image presentation. So we still have a physical relationship that seems to involve a temporal anomaly. Not sure which way causation would flow.
I'm not saying the person is remote viewing an image in the future. I'm suggesting that the person is remote viewing the mechanism that selects the target, as it selects the target, just before the target is displayed.

Why would this not involve retrocausation? The anomalous autonomic response occurs before picture presentation. If PK occurs as a relationship between the RNG output and observation of the target picture, then we may still need retrocausation to explain the autonomic response before target presentation.
The "response" would be a reflection of the picture that the subject was forcing to be selected, rather than a response to the future presentation of an unknown picture.

~~ Paul
 
I think this is where physicists are needed. Would it necessarily involve causation? I hate to open the can of worms that is drawing parallels with quantum mechanics, but we do have some conventional QM experiments that seem to show some wierd temporal effects with entanglement. Not being a physicist, I don't know whether such experiments are to be interpreted as correlations or causations :confused:

With QM you need physicists and philosophers to collaborate (which happens a bit but not much) - the physicists to understand the physics and the philosophers to understand the metaphysics. (The Bell experiment was said to be the first ever empirical test of metaphysics!)

Causation I should mention is a very difficult (and unsolved) problem - there are several rather different theories of what causation is. But it is central to many things (including in philosophy - causation is key to things as diverse as knowledge, scientific laws, reference & perception. I gave a lecture a few weeks ago about the role of causation in musical structure.)
 
Let's see how this might work, psi-wise:
  • I could be precognising the picture when it's ultimately shown to me.
  • I could be remote viewing the mechanism as it selects the picture.
  • I could be using psychokinesis to force the picture selection.
Only the first method requires retrocausation.

~~ Paul

True - though I expect we could distinguish these three experimentally. E.g. my share price predicting machine above would only work if precognition was occurring (assuming that it would be implausible that psychokinesis could significantly affect a share price, or (better) a market index - too complicated to achieve).

Re remote viewing the mechanism, this isn't an issue if the image is selected by a random process that only occurs a fraction of a second before the image appears (i.e. after the skin resistance is measured).
 
Say folks, why don't we do our own telephone telepathy experiment?

I'm all in favour of experiments, but note that the Sheldrake papers suggest that telephone telepathy works best (or only works?) with people who know each other well - close relatives or close friends. I don't know whether one could expect it to work with people who've never met and so may not know each other in whatever the relevant way required for recognition via telepathy is.
 
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