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Why are they not prosecuted for fraud

maffustan

New Blood
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Been looking around this site for ages but never got round to making a post so here goes....

The question is why are people who make money out of woo-woo such as astrology, dowsing rods, roulette systems etc not prosecuted for fraud. When most countries have laws that are ment to protect us from manufacturers making false claims for their products.

I suppose this is more of a legal question any answers would be welcome
 
I bet the ones that prosecute also have a certain "nah, let them be" feeling towards the woo woo, and they do nothing. Or probably believe some of it.

I guess they can't be frauds since there isn't any real one to compare to.
It's basically a phenomenon in their minds that make people honestly believe they can read minds and find water with sticks.
They would be prosecuting people who are ignorant and irrational.
The process would be never ending.
 
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Some of the more egregious cases are prosecuted--usually when a single victim has been bilked of their life's savings (or more) and is willing to admit publicly that they were taken.

It's a tough thing, I'm sure. The predators really work on their prey incrementally, constantly ratcheting up the amounts of money and the degree of trust demanded. What seems ludicrous at the end can seem to the victim more like, "Well, I've come this far; I'd be foolish not to take the next step."
 
They have a good way of wording claims such as this "may" help you or "could" change your life.I am amazed at the healers who are aloud to pratice their medcines on people and get away with charging large amounts of money.
 
They have a good way of wording claims such as this "may" help you or "could" change your life.I am amazed at the healers who are aloud to pratice their medcines on people and get away with charging large amounts of money.

How about erectile dysfunction drugs that 'may cause impotence'?

Or anti-depressants that 'may cause depression'?
 
How about erectile dysfunction drugs that 'may cause impotence'?

Or anti-depressants that 'may cause depression'?

I think you are unclear on the difference between false claims of the form "x may cause y" and true claims of the form "x may cause y".
 
Recently here in Australia, I've noticed a lot of TV ads for Text Message services called "Psychic Love Match" or something. Basically the ad says text the name of yourself and your partner and our psychic/numerologist whatever will tell you if you are compatable. I'm paraphrasing of course and there are several variations being advertised at the moment. They all have the fine print disclaimer about $5/text message and a minimum charge of $20.

I don't understand how these sorts of scams can be legal. Its not like the "Buy our new ringtone" or "Get pics of sexy babes on your mobile" type things, because at least those are offering an actual product(however useless). But these "psychic love match" or "Secret admirer" ones appear deliberately designed to deceive.

Just one of my pet peeves right now.
 
The problem with this question is it varies wildly from country to country.

Firstly, there is the general point that people who pay for woo services usually believe in woo services, and many are very happy customers, because they believe they get something from their woo. So they have no reason to bring a case, unless blatantly ripped off - and then they will, but the humiliation may hold them back.

Ironically the UK Spiritualist Churches do support strongly at times people who wish to bring fraud cases, and Spiritualists are in my experience outspoken in making allegation of fraud against psychics - both because of their concern with "evidence" and because obviously cheats make them all look bad. This means however that Spiritualist Church members are often involved in bringing such cases to public attention.

Now in the UK we have the Fraudulent Mediums Act (1956) which can be used to prosecute - but it requires the permission of the Director of Public Prosecutions (or I believe the home Secretary) on any given case, as "in te public interest". This is partly historical as a response the nototrious Helen Duncan case, but also contextual.

The UK has an established Church, the Church of England, but respects freedom of religious belief. Where does woo end and religion start? How does one suppress woo legally and allow liberty of conscience? The Mediumship Act replaced the relevant provisions of the 1756 Witchcraft Act, and throughout the 60 and 70s 'everybody knew' that witches has suffered in a vast holocaust called by their purported descendants "the Burning Times", and while this has been seriously revised by modern historians, its still a potent cultural mythology. So you persecute fraudulent psychics, you raise the spectre of the witchcraft persecutions - plain and simple...

So we do have prosecutions in the UK (I think they are increasing, but I have no data so that is just a worthless subjective impression) but they are of only the really blatantly criminal cases - and are often brought under other laws pertaining to the actual criminal offence such as "obtaining money by deception", "fraud", or "making threats".

Then there is the "what it says on the box" problem. Many woo services like the ones you cite are clearly marked in the UK "for entertainment only". I was watching last night TV when an ad came on that offered to text me the initial of my future husband (well I suppose gay marriage is legit here now - I'm male, but this assumed the audience was female clearly...). Harmless fun? It was extremely expensive i thought, but marked "for entertainment only". D'oh! How could anyone conceivably believe otherwise? What made me laugh though was they would continue to text a future initial of one of my future husbands each week till I unsubscribed. How many future husbands are the kids who do this planning? Listen girls, you need an apple, a mirror, and wait till Halloween - ok, before you JREF chaps lynch me, at least its free! Anyway it's hard to prosecute as fraud what says its "for entertainment only"

Now the greater problem - can we tell people how to spend their money, or what to believe? Can we shut down the psychics? I would personally prefer not to, but instead try to educate people not to participate in these things. I am not at all authoritarian - the problem is that some sections of the community are vulnerable, and hence will always be susceptible.

Final thought, and a very subjective and politicallly biased one: with the decline of communitarian values and a more atomistic, individualist society, institutionalised religion and the peering over the neighbours fence blinds twitching moral consensus have maybe declined, with an increase in personal freedom, and hence personal responsibility. I personally think its worked well, but it has resulted in a generation or two who seek individual religious or psychic experiences, and a spiritual "me" generation who talk about what God has done ion their lives, read "Self Help" books thinly veiled with religion be it Jesus or Buddhism or whatever, and seek out mystical experiences and the "psychic" without any development of their critical faculties in addressing these experiences. Unsurprisingly woo has therefore, and will continue to, proliferate. This may be a moral evil - but would coercion or repression be any better? :( I think not!

Sorry I whittered on a bit - these things interest me. Be interested in any comments on my analysis :(

cj x
 
No, we can't tell people how not to spend their money. At this very time, I'm trying to persuade an acquiantance not to sink his entire 6-figure inheritance into a dodgy-looking property scheme; he listens to me (and others telling him the same things) and just shakes his head and says he trusts the guy who is taking the money off him.
 
In Australia I have been tempted to complain to the ACCC about the ads in the rear of Women's magazines advertising woo for misleading advertising. There is nothing there to say for entertainment only. They do not need a victim, just a misleading ad.
 
Been looking around this site for ages but never got round to making a post so here goes....

The question is why are people who make money out of woo-woo such as astrology, dowsing rods, roulette systems etc not prosecuted for fraud. When most countries have laws that are ment to protect us from manufacturers making false claims for their products.

I suppose this is more of a legal question any answers would be welcome

Here is an answer for you if you reside in the U.S.:

Many state and local jurisdications have specific statutes forbidding "fortune telling", which most of these would fall under. These are misdemeanor crimes in most places and very low order items. They can be very difficult to prove; often times a prosecutor will have to show it was not done for entertainment purposes etc. Law enforcement in the U.S. (as with anywhere else) practices a type of triage; murder, arson, robbery, etc cases are going to receive most of the resources available to law enforcement. Therefore, these things often get ignored as trivial and wasteful of limited resources, which is rightfully the case. The best place to address these wierdos is in the courts of public opinion. That said, a I believe New York or Pennsylvania recently rounded up several palm readers for bilking customers under one of these laws.

Also of note, cases involving prosecution of pyschics are more likely to arise in a tax context. Usually these types of people operate cash and carry businesses for their silly readings. The result is usually horrific amounts of unreported income. In fact, in an industry dominated by fraud personality types, tax evasion and other cheating schemes are rampant and arise simply as a result of the characters of those involved.
 
No, we can't tell people how not to spend their money. At this very time, I'm trying to persuade an acquiantance not to sink his entire 6-figure inheritance into a dodgy-looking property scheme; he listens to me (and others telling him the same things) and just shakes his head and says he trusts the guy who is taking the money off him.

I also have to admit to having little sympathy for some of these victims. I can see no context where a reasonable person would follow instructions to bring in several hundred dollar bills so that their bad ju-ju can be removed from their soul and placed in the bills. Naturally, you'll have to give me the bills so the bad ju-ju doesn't revert to you.

Oprah had an e-mail scam victim on not so long ago. This woman went deeper into debt sending money to someone (for taxes or to verify her accounts or whatever) because she believed she had won an overseas lottery. It never occurred to her that she hadn't ever in her life been to that country or bought tickets to that lottery.

I don't even think this sort of foolishness can be attributed to our dismal education system. While I admire the woman's ability to come out on national TV to tell her story, I don't see how it's possible (or even desirable) to protect people from their own greed and foolishness.
 
I also have to admit to having little sympathy for some of these victims. I can see no context where a reasonable person would follow instructions to bring in several hundred dollar bills so that their bad ju-ju can be removed from their soul and placed in the bills. Naturally, you'll have to give me the bills so the bad ju-ju doesn't revert to you.

Oprah had an e-mail scam victim on not so long ago. This woman went deeper into debt sending money to someone (for taxes or to verify her accounts or whatever) because she believed she had won an overseas lottery. It never occurred to her that she hadn't ever in her life been to that country or bought tickets to that lottery.

I don't even think this sort of foolishness can be attributed to our dismal education system. While I admire the woman's ability to come out on national TV to tell her story, I don't see how it's possible (or even desirable) to protect people from their own greed and foolishness.

At one of my jobs i proccessed wire transactions, and talked to victims of internet fraud every day. The same people would try to defraud us by pretending to be one of our sending locations. Some of the fraudsters are AMAZING at manipulating people. A few supervisors who underwent additional fraud training upon being promoted admitted to me being talked into sending transactions by people pretending to be our sending locations, or being talked into changing info on a transaction without the neccesary info. Even people trained to spot the signs of fraud can be defrauded.

And personally i can say unless the scammer was really bad at their job i did have to pay a lot of attention to make sure i didnt accidentally do something to help a fraudster. I guess the mistake most people make is assuming that other people arent criminals.

I can understand, because I think everyone has done something completely foolish that seemed reasonable at the time. Fortunatley most people dont make such costly mistakes.

Another thing to keep in mind is that a lot of these scammers target the elderly (especially the lotto scam), and can often find someone who has a comprimised reasoning capacity due to any number of age related mental problems. Just like psychics prey on people who have family members who died and are in an emotionally tough place, financial scammers prey on the elderly because many of them are lonely and are more willing to talk on the phone. A lot of young people fall for these scams too, unfortunatley its a lot of young and uneducated/poorer young people that fall for it. A lot of them have children, but the scammers dont care.

i look at it like the victim made a dumb mistake, but the criminal is still a terrible person. I dont really care how stupid or gullible someone is, they do not deserve to be treated like that. i wouldnt be able to live with myself if i treated anyone like that, regardless of who it was.
 

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