Over Unity is No Longer Disputable

[MortFurd]

Thats the best you can do? Did you try looking up this technology?

You are trying to hide your ignorance behind skepticism. Let's say you have succeeded, we can't tell you're stupid even though you are. Now what?

http://www.gammamanager.com/question.html

BTW I don't need a new lifestyle, my current one is just fine, thank God for all my blessings. I am currently looking into buying this.

http://www.polarisindustries.com/en-us/Ranger/RangerRZR/Experience/

It would have been nice of you to post the link the the Gamma Manager homepage to start with.

Videos aren't terribly useful, and some of us are behind content blockers that block youtube.

1. The "Certification Tests" provided are not a protocol of the actual tests. They are signed summaries of tests. The test data itself is not provided.
2. They provide no technical details of the workings of the machines.
3. Measuring the "heat output" is going to be a very difficult job to do right. With no information on how it was measured, there's no way to tell if they avoided all of the pitfalls.
4. The output voltage of that device is NOT going to be a standard 50 or 60 Hz sine wave (like you get from an outlet,) so standard AC volt and ampere meters aren't going to be accurate - read that as "not even in the ball park." Most particularly, any power output readings made with standard equipment is going to be WRONG. They may have been using equipment designed to handle arbitrary wavforms and make accurate readings on them, but I don't see that equipment anywhere - and it isn't referenced in the "Certification Tests."
5. Creating a device the puts out more power (for a short period) than it takes in is not a big problem. The big problem is making it do so continuously. What you need is not more power, but more energy. For electricity, that's Volts*Amperes*Time (there's more to it than that, but that's the simple version.) Power is Volts*Amperes (simplified.) As long as you ignore the time factor, it's easy to get a higehr power output. You just won't get more energy out than you put in.

I'd like nothing more than to have a machine that put out more power than it takes in. Actually, I'd like to have one that puts out more energy than it takes in.

To illustrate:
I can charge a capacitor at 1 volt and 1 ampere for 1 second. 1Volt*1Ampere=1Watt. I can then discharge that capacitor at 2Amperes. 1Watt*2Amperes=2Watts. That's more power. It is NOT more energy, because it will discharge for only half as long.
1Volt*1Ampere*1Second=1Joule.
1Volt*2Ampere*.5Second=1Joule.

If you don't watch all of the factors, you can fool yourself into believing you get more out than you put in. You didn't. You just changed the way it is measured, and didn't notice all the factors.

 

[MortFurd]

I especially liked this part of the "Certification Tests" page:

1. You may check independently the credentials of the scientists by means available to you, except:
2. You do not telephone him or contact him directly.

Until they provide the actual test protocols and results and those results have been duplicated, over unity is still very much in dispute. That is to say, their claim to have produced over unity is in dispute.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I found this to be of interest.

HUNGARIAN NUCLEAR PLANT MANAGEMENT REPLACED. At an extraordinary
meeting of the co-owners of the Paks Nuclear Works Inc. on 9
December, the plant's entire management was replaced, MTI reported
the same day. Laszlo Marothy was appointed board chairman for the
next three years, and Istvan Szabo, Janos Marton, and Zoltan
Szatmary were named board members. Marothy and Szabo have held
leading positions at Paks for decades. The reason for the
dismissal of general manager Erno Petz was not disclosed. Alfred
Reisch, RFE/RL, Inc.

 

[joobz]

You are all forgetting, it uses unique geometry to get more energy.
What I want to know is how they got a hold of some unique geometry. I've been trying to get some spare unique geometries for my new deck, but my supplier is completely out. From what he tells me, there's this big unique geometry shortage right now. All I know is, these EBM guys better not have hogged all of the unique geometry....

 

[Mashuna]

You are all forgetting, it uses unique geometry to get more energy.
What I want to know is how they got a hold of some unique geometry. I've been trying to get some spare unique geometries for my new deck, but my supplier is completely out. From what he tells me, there's this big unique geometry shortage right now. All I know is, these EBM guys better not have hogged all of the unique geometry....

<looks around> I've probably got a triagon and a squircle I can lend you, if you need your unique geometry urgently.

 

[Hellbound]

<looks around> I've probably got a triagon and a squircle I can lend you, if you need your unique geometry urgently.

Bah! Don't accept those cheap imitations!

I have a tetraquadrangleahedron^TM here, perfect for decks, and yours for just three easy payments of $199.99!!! Don't be the last on on your block to have one! Get your tetraquadrangleahedron today: the unique geometry that's hard to pronounce, but easy to spend your money on!

 

[Big Al]

It's simple. If you think you get more energy out than you put in, then plug the output into the input, remove all other energy sources and watch that sucker continue to run faster and faster until it burns out...

...or watch it grind to a halt within a few seconds.

My money's on the latter.

 

[Hellbound]

It's simple. If you think you get more energy out than you put in, then plug the output into the input, remove all other energy sources and watch that sucker continue to run faster and faster until it burns out...

...or watch it grind to a halt within a few seconds.

My money's on the latter.

Or even better, connect just enough output to the input to keep it running, and divert the excess (which is claimed) to light a light bulb (or a series of them). Then watch it grind to a halt, or light the room until the bulb burns out. That would show overunity, as well, without the excuses of "but tha' could warp the spacetime continuim, Cap'n!" or "if I give it any more power she'll blow!".

ETA: And a video won't work on this one, unless it includes, without any cuts or fades, the entire process of assembling the system from parts and hooking it up. It really needs to be a physical demonstration, one where the device can be examined carefully for batteries or other hidden fuel sources.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Or even better, connect just enough output to the input to keep it running, and divert the excess (which is claimed) to light a light bulb (or a series of them). Then watch it grind to a halt, or light the room until the bulb burns out. That would show overunity, as well, without the excuses of "but tha' could warp the spacetime continuim, Cap'n!" or "if I give it any more power she'll blow!".

ETA: And a video won't work on this one, unless it includes, without any cuts or fades, the entire process of assembling the system from parts and hooking it up. It really needs to be a physical demonstration, one where the device can be examined carefully for batteries or other hidden fuel sources.

As Joobz pointed out to me, the prototypes (those things that look just like industrial electric motors) are all unusually still for perpetual motion machines.

 

[MortFurd]

Or even better, connect just enough output to the input to keep it running, and divert the excess (which is claimed) to light a light bulb (or a series of them). Then watch it grind to a halt, or light the room until the bulb burns out. That would show overunity, as well, without the excuses of "but tha' could warp the spacetime continuim, Cap'n!" or "if I give it any more power she'll blow!".

ETA: And a video won't work on this one, unless it includes, without any cuts or fades, the entire process of assembling the system from parts and hooking it up. It really needs to be a physical demonstration, one where the device can be examined carefully for batteries or other hidden fuel sources.

Won't work with these $%^$$%@ machines. It's a variation of an Adam's motor, and it's output is not even an approximation of a sine wave. What's comes out of that thing is a regular, repeating, bat crap insane curve that is emphatically NOT at the original line frequency or DC. They are driving the "generator" with a standard AC motor. It would take one look at that crap and refuse to run.

The bat crap insane output curve is what gets them to thinking they've got over-unity. They use standard voltage, current, and power meters calibrated to read properly on a sinewave and usually only at normal line frequency (50Hz here in Europe, 60 Hz in the US.) If you use a test system that is capable of accurately reading the crazy wave form, their "over unity" disappears.

The output wave form is also why they don't just run something else from it and do something useful with it. Damn near nothing will run right on it. Heck, there's no guarantee they'll even hit an approximation of normal line voltage with the $%%^$ thing. Light bulbs wouldn't care about the waveform, but too high (or too low) a voltage wouldn't do 'em any good.

 

[TjW]

You are all forgetting, it uses unique geometry to get more energy.
What I want to know is how they got a hold of some unique geometry. I've been trying to get some spare unique geometries for my new deck, but my supplier is completely out. From what he tells me, there's this big unique geometry shortage right now. All I know is, these EBM guys better not have hogged all of the unique geometry....

All promise, no delivery. Those darn unique geometries are all the same.

 

[MortFurd]

I found this to be of interest.

Holy Crap!

I truly hope these guys are scammers. That'd be LESS scary than thinking that somebody in charge of a nuclear power plant would actually believe he'd gotten hold of a perpetual motion machine.

 

[Hellbound]

MortFurd:

Well, even so, that was why I suggested it. Even assuming you DO have an overunity device, if you can't use the energy, is it practically any different than a non-overunity device? I mean, technically, EVERY system puts out the same amount of energy put in, just that a good portion is in unusable form (line losses, friction, non-work movement, vibration, heat, heat, heat).

Now, of course, if overunity could be proven, science as we know it goes out the window (and I have no doubts that this is an overunity device in the same way that I'm the Pope, on my off days from being President of the UN). But show me some useful work with the system, and let me verify that, or it doesn't matter how much energy you put out...if I can't use it, it isn't worth my money.

 

[MortFurd]

Since it isn't over unity, it doesn't really matter what comes out of it. There's no point in having the thing since all it can do is lose energy for you.

 

[Buckaroo]

EBM = E.xplosive B.owel. M.ovement?

 

[Ziggurat]

Well, even so, that was why I suggested it. Even assuming you DO have an overunity device, if you can't use the energy, is it practically any different than a non-overunity device? I mean, technically, EVERY system puts out the same amount of energy put in, just that a good portion is in unusable form (line losses, friction, non-work movement, vibration, heat, heat, heat).

Well, if you had an over-unity device whose extra output was heat, well, then you've got yourself a really good heater. Not completely useless, actually.

 

[geoman]

Do not worry, friends. Big Oil(tm) will have everyone involved killed off by the end of the week.

As an employee of Big Oil (well, Medium Oil really) I will do my best to ensure that our MIB avoid bumping off JREF forum members. Actually, your scepticism about Free Energy does wonders for the oil price. Keep up the good work.

 

[Loss Leader]

You people are all missing the only important point.

His sister was played by David Hewlett's REAL-LIFE SISTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why can't you understand that?

 

[Slimething]

Iron losses are one of the losses caused associated with an electric machine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_loss

Thank you for the education, bjb! Obviously, I'm not a physicist or an engineer. I envisioned iron filings being spewed from the vents of this monster and I wondered how in hell any machine that loses mass could be considered an over-unity device. The notion of effiency losses due to the slow decay in components makes perfect sense to me. Over-unity claims are entirely a different matter.

I have no idea how g4 or these scam artists can claim greater than 100% efficiency in a generator that suffers from normal thermodynamic losses.

Again, thanks!

 

[joobz]

Why overunity and heat output is logically dumb

I am certain most people here understand this point, but I'd like to lay it out one more time just to clarify why thier claim is just completely and utterly....dumb.

The first law of thermo is
DeltaU=q+w+E
where,
DeltaU= change in internal energy in the system. We can assume that no energy will go into the internal energy, since that would mean a decrease in energy going into work.
q= heat
w=work
E=what ever source of energy you want, real or otherwise.

sign conventions are always important . Note I'm taking all + values to mean work done ONTO the system and negative values to mean work done BY (leaving) the system.

Efficiency = amount of work done divided by the energy available

Eff = -w/E (the negative is to account for the

from the first law, taking deltaU as zero we get
-w=q+E
so
Eff = (q+E)/E or
Eff = 1 + q/E

E is our energy source, and is going into the system therefor it is always positive.

if they measure heat output(heat leaving the system), than q is negative.

therefore if we are giving off heat, Eff must be less than unity.