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American Express hypocrites

Aquila

Muse
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
632
I'm fed up with the latest barrage of junk mail from American Express. In the past month they've sent letters to all the adults in my household, some of them in duplicate. I've also got letters from other companies who bought my address from a company like Experian.

If you've received these too, you probably know that if you open the letter there is an 800 number you can call, talk to a machine or punch in some numbers and hopefully get your name taken off their list for 5 years. If you want to be removed permanently you have to give them your social securtiy number and date of birth or else have them send you something else to sign.

All in the name of business of course. But what about the waste of paper, not to mention the silly plastic dud card? American Express has the nerve to put out an advertisement on public radio about how it supports something supposedly helpful to the planet like hybrid cars, when it is wasting resources, contributing to greenhouse gasses and just getting people very annoyed!

This person is ticked off too:
http://pardonmyfrench.typepad.com/pardonmyfrench/2007/01/american_expres.html

Can anything stop them?:(
 
The blunt instrument of direct mailing. It sucks, but I guess the best I can suggest if it bothers you is to actually call that 800 number. A few minutes of time now to save annoyance for 5 years.
 
I had an even worse experience with Visa this year. I have a Canadian Visa card that, and the billing address is my parents' address in Canada (because there are big problems with having the bill sent to China). So, one day, apparently, my parents got a message on their answering machine that some sort of new "insurance" was being offered, and if they did not want to receive it, they would have to call a number and indicate that...otherwise, they would automatically be billed. Now, the problem is that my father and I share the same name...so when they got the message, they assumed it was in regards to their card. Thus, no action was taken on my card.

Meanwhile, I was traveling in the Himalayas, visiting villages of the Chinese minority group I work with. Most of these villages have no electricity, much less computers, so I had no internet access for about 6 weeks. When I finally returned to Beijing, and got online to check my account, I discovered that for the past two months, I'd had charges of around $150 each month for some product or service that I had never signed up for or agreed to.

I contacted Visa immediately, to inform them that I expected my card was being used fraudulently. They informed me that no, this charge was from a "partner" of Visa, and that I had authorized it. I insisted that I had not. They told me I'd have to talk to that company to resolve the issue.

So, I called that company. It turned out, they offered "insurance" whereby, if I lost my job or was otherwise incapacitated, and unable to pay my credit card, they would pay my premiums until such time as I got back on my feet. They did this in cooperation with Visa, who gave them my personal information -- telephone number, billing address, and account number -- and they then phoned me (and every other Visa client on the list), with the same message: "If you do not specifically phone us to tell us you don't want this, you will automatically enrolled and billed".

Of course, all arguments and appeals to this company went nowhere; at best, they offered to cancel any future billings. But certainly no refund. I called Visa back, and complained, but they said there was nothing they could do...it was my responsibility to respond to the company and tell them I did not want this product. The fact that I'd been in the Himalayas, and entirely incapable of responding, was moot.

To make things worse, the next month I discovered yet another charge for $150 from this insurance company! I called them up, extremely irate, and a very pleasant customer service rep informed me that he was terribly sorry for any misunderstanding, and he would make sure that it was canceled before the next billing period.

But wait...what about a refund? "Oh, I'm sorry, I'm not authorized to do that, only our manager can authorize that". "Oh, I'm sorry, our manager is not in right now." Etc., etc., etc. After three phone calls like this, the person said, "When he comes back, he'll contact you." I asked, "He'll phone me in China?" "Oh, I'm sorry sir, we only make direct phone calls to clients within Canada." "Then how will he contact me?" "He won't contact you, sir, you'll have to contact him."

Fortunately, I had been recording these phone calls, and then phoned Visa, this time with much more specific claims of fraud. I played the recordings which demonstrated that the company acknowledged that I had requested to have my account canceled, and all billing stopped; and their acknowledgment that they had still billed me after I'd made my request. Visa followed up on it, and finally told me that I would at least get reimbursed for that last month's payment.

And then, finally, I asked the question that perhaps I should have asked long before -- "If you guys are going to give away my person information to outside companies, and those companies are going to be allowed to charge me for services I don't want based on the fact that I have not specifically said I don't want them, is there any way I can get taken off the list that you give to these companies?"

"Oh, yes, sir, certainly. If you no longer wish to be included in the list, we can take you off of it...but you will no longer be able to receive special offers or services that are routinely offered to our clients by outside agencies." As if she really thought at this point that I was worried about missing out on these incredible offers.

Had my name taken off the list. Haven't had any similar problems since. But what a bunch of nonsense, extremely unethical no matter how you look at it...even if it is technically legal.
 
Good grief. This reminds me of a dirty trick (IMO) Citibank Japan played on me. When I signed up for an account, you needed to keep a certain minimum (About $3000) or you were charged a fee (I guess they didn't want to deal with small accounts.). So I put in the minimum. Then they raised the minimum, and I didn't notice for a few months. I lost a few hundred bucks that way. I decided I didn't need the account after all. I was so mad at the time, but in life staying upset for long is not worth it. Accept that there are unscrupulous people out there, and keep track of your wallet. If you get burned, learn from it, and consider it a lesson.
 
My ten year old gets credit card offers. Nothing enrages me more. If somehow these offers get into the hands of a mail thief, she'll have credit problems by the time she is an adult.
 
I had an even worse experience with Visa this year. I have a Canadian Visa card that, and the billing address is my parents' address in Canada (because there are big problems with having the bill sent to China). So, one day, apparently, my parents got a message on their answering machine that some sort of new "insurance" was being offered, and if they did not want to receive it, they would have to call a number and indicate that...otherwise, they would automatically be billed.
When was this and what is your home province? In Ontario, this practice of negative option billing is not allowed under consumer protection legislation.

http://www.gov.on.ca/MGS/en/News/STEL02_047135.html
 
I get at least one "Pre-Approved!" credit card offer in the post per week from Capital One. Once, I thought that having 0% balance transfer facility might be useful, so I filled in the blanks and sent the form back.

They rejected me.

Next day, another "Pre-Approved" application came in the post. Straight into the shredder it went :D
 
Unfortunately, it was in B.C., in February of this year.

A bit of Googling shows that BC has anti-"negative billing" legislation though I can't seem to turn up the statue and, unlike Ontario, their Statutes are not online.

What they did was illegal and Visa must know this. I'd take another crack at Visa. Most (all) Canadian banks have an Ombudsman -- try him/her.

Ask Visa to prove you authorized the charge.

The whole process stinks. :mad:
 
Wow!!!!! I can't believe this is legal Wolfman. You really should pursue it, this stinks to high heaven.

And if it is legal, it needs to be stopped.

One point to clarify: was the message left on an answering machine, or did they speak directly with your parents?
 
Actually, I also doubt that this is legal; companies like this rely on the principle that enough people will get sucked in, and not complain/demand a refund, that they can make a profit from it.

The pragmatic reality of it is, I'm in China, and its $300. The cost for me to mount a serious effort to get them to give the money back would be more than that, and they know it. If I did pursue legal action, I'd be required to return to Canada to do so...the cost of the plane tickets alone would be several times higher than the amount of money at issue, not to mention the loss of income (I'm in the middle of starting a new company here, and have no time to take off). And worse, they know I'm in China, and how difficult it would be for me to pursue this matter.

Fact of the matter, for all that I got scammed, I didn't get scammed for enough to justify the time/effort it would take to get the money back. That's just plain reality.

Gord, thanks for the support, but there was never a question that I "authorized" this payment; neither Visa nor this "insurance company" claimed that I had actually given active agreement, only that I'd failed to indicate I didn't want it. Visa went further to state that if I had expressed disagreement within the first month of billing, I would have had grounds to have it canceled, and the money refunded; but that by allowing two billing periods to pass, I had "implicitly" signaled my approval. My protests that I was up in the Himalayas and completely unaware of it fell on less-than-sympathetic ears.

And Teek, the message was left on my parents' voice mail.

P.S. -- I did, however, take inordinate joy in informing one of the "customer service" girls at the insurance company of what an utter idiot she was, and what slime she and everyone at her company were; I went on at quite some length, for a good five minutes, using very colorful (but non-profane) language. It didn't change anything for me, but nevertheless gave something of a sense of self-satisfaction that I failed to derive from any of my other interactions with these people.
 
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ive never tried this, but its the first thing that came to mind:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=junk_the_junk

Excellent link!! Thank you so much!

(If you haven't seen this page yet, here's a small paste from it:

Here's a little secret that might piss off credit card companies and potentially get them to stop harassing you with upwards of 20 credit card applications per week. Some people have known this for years, and since a fair amount of people will read this I feel that it's my duty and obligation to share this secret with you, because based on the email I've received, I don't always get the sharpest tools in the shed reading my site (as opposed to the regular tools who read this site). For the slow: I'm saying that you're stupid and wouldn't come up with this idea on your own; pay attention.

There are two types of junk mail that everyone gets: coupons for stupid ******** that you don't want, and credit card applications for credit to buy stupid ******** that you don't need. Here's how to take care of all your junk mail in one fell swoop: use the postage-paid envelope that credit card companies send you with their applications to send them the OTHER junk mail you receive. It's just that simple. Imagine the frustration of credit card companies when they have to spend millions of dollars every year on first-class postage just to open up an envelope and find Pizza Hut coupons inside. The envelopes are intended to be used for "BUSINESS REPLY MAIL," and so use them for their intended purpose. You're sending them valuable money-saving coupons which could mean big savings to credit card companies, and it makes good business sense to use them. Consider it a reply to their business proposition with a business proposition of your own: 35 cents off a large, one-topping pizza. In fact, they should be thanking you for giving them these money-saving opportunities. Or how about sending them credit card applications from other credit card companies? Be creative.


(copyright 2003 by Maddox)

Yes, this problem is really going beyond the bounds of democracy. It is a form of harrassment, and it's time to fight back. I like the suggestion above, as it puts the power back in our hands, rather than forcing us to do work for no pay (like carrying the junk mail to our recycling bin, or making a telephone call to an 800 number when we've got better things to do).

I sometimes send the letters right back by writing on them in big red letters "RETURN TO SENDER - UNSOLICITED MAIL - REMOVE FROM YOUR MAILING LIST". Sometimes the letters are redelivered and I repost them right back in the public mail box. The post office must legally deliver all mail with an address on it, so if everyone in America were to do this, the post office would be so overwhelmed at the junk that they might opt out of having to deliver it in the first place.

What I find most hypocritical about American Express's version of corporate bullying, is that they are pretending to be "cool" or somehow hip or in tune with popular culture. In one magazine they had gotten Ellen DeGeneris to pose in her pajamas with her dog in a kitchen sorting through her presumably hip purchase history. I think I also saw Sting advertising cars last year. I thought these celebrities had deeper priorities.
 
I thought these celebrities had deeper priorities.
:dl:

Incidentally, this sort of negative option marketing is illegal in the US. Under FTC regulation 16 C.F.R. § 425.1, any business that engages in negative option marketing must obtain your explicit consent to such a program/subscription before being allowed to provide you with any merchandise or services under such a plan.

http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title16/16-1.0.1.4.45.0.38.1.html
 
Well, an update on my own situation...I took one of the suggestions above, and contacted the Ombudsman of the bank that issued my Visa card. He replied that there are some Canadian laws about this, but they only cover specific industries (which is the reason Ontario had to pass its own laws to make it illegal for all industries). In BC, such a law has not yet been passed.

Under existing law, if this "insurance company" had contacted me independently, what they did would be illegal; but as they did it as an "agent" or "partner" of the credit card company, it is legal.

I also did some independent searching online, and it said the same thing; Canada's negative billing laws are too undefined, and have too many loopholes, to be really effective.
 
Well, an update on my own situation...I took one of the suggestions above, and contacted the Ombudsman of the bank that issued my Visa card. He replied that there are some Canadian laws about this, but they only cover specific industries (which is the reason Ontario had to pass its own laws to make it illegal for all industries). In BC, such a law has not yet been passed.

Under existing law, if this "insurance company" had contacted me independently, what they did would be illegal; but as they did it as an "agent" or "partner" of the credit card company, it is legal.

I also did some independent searching online, and it said the same thing; Canada's negative billing laws are too undefined, and have too many loopholes, to be really effective.

IANAL but....

surely to establish a contract you must have a "meeting of minds" where both parties agree what the contract covers, what payment will be made etc.

If you were unaware that you had ever been offered this "service", it seems no meeting of minds took place and no contract existed. I find it hard to believe any court would require you to pay for a service you never knew you had been offered, which you never requested and which you cancelled as soon as you were aware of it.

Finally I would demand proof that they contacted you. My guess is they do not have a recording of the call they claim to have made - if they cannot prove that you were offered a chance to opt out, then they have no leg to stand on.
 
However counter-intuitive and unethical it appears, I've been assured by numerous sources that this is technically legal. Now, if someone were to contact me and leave a message on my phone that they wanted to sell me a TV, and if I didn't reply to say no, I would automatically be billed, that would be illegal...I have no pre-existing relationship to them, they are seeking to sell me a new product.

However, apparently, it is not illegal, if I already have a pre-existing relationship with a company (such as Visa), for that company to offer additional services or charges for that product, without first gaining their explicit permission -- they need simply make an effort to inform me, then charge me if I fail to state otherwise.

If this insurance company had contacted me independently, this would have been illegal; but since they were doing it in partnership with Visa, and this was being offered as an "additional service" on my Visa account, it was legal.

And yes, they did make and keep a recording -- that was one of my very first questions when I contacted them. They know very well they're gonna' have a lot of pissed-off people, and lots of people trying to get their money back; they keep their butts well-covered to ensure that they get to keep every cent of unethically-earned money that they can.
 

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