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Ostepath claiming bird flu is plot to make $$$

Skeptic Ginger

Nasty Woman
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
96,955
FOWL! Bird flu—What it’s really all about, (link to review article).

This is a year old. It came up on another forum. I searched for a thread on the topic or on this woman's book but found none. So if there is one, bump it and I'll post there.

This is nothing new. But it came up in a flu thread on the CurEvents forum. (Post #22. Nice forum, BTW.) Typical Big Pharma conspiracy claim, including the usual anti-vaxer nonsense.

Since there is little evidence bird flu is being spread by wild birds, this idiot claims that is evidence the pharmaceutical companies are behind it. Nothing mentioned of course that the current consensus among those who have intelligent discussions of bird flu's spread is that the majority is being spread by commercial transport of birds and bird products. Most of the spread has been through illegal importing of chicks and eggs. Apparently this is incredibly widespread. And a little bird flu has also been spread by exotic bird smuggling.

She became suspicious of the pharmaceutical industry and government agencies developing vaccines to "protect" people from bird flu. Taking into consideration her knowledge of communicable diseases and the self-evident failure of mandated vaccination programs to prevent diseases, Dr. Tenpenny has uncovered amazing links behind the bird flu hype not previously discussed. Her research will be published in her new book, "FOWL! Bird Flu—It’s Not What You Think, (link to the book on Amazon)" which [has been] available [since] April, 2006.
That Amazon book review needs some rebuttal entries, sheesh!
 
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I cannot take an investigation of such a serious matter seriously when there's such a terrible pun in the title.

-Gumboot
 
But j, if you knew the science of it, you'd know what was real and what was news hype. Don't assume just because the news media doesn't have a clue that infectious diseases are not a potential hazard.

SARS would have killed millions a mere decade ago. It was the first time in history we actually used scientific knowledge to stop a deadly pandemic in its tracks.

Legionnaire's was worrisome until we learned more about it, as was the 4 Corners outbreak of Haanta Virus. Ebola was never a worry for Westerners but poses serious threat to the areas in the world who can't even wash their hands in the hospitals, no running water. Swine flu was a mistake by the scientific community, but the others were only mistakes in the way the media portrayed them.

Bird flu remains a very serious threat. The scientific community has never really claimed to know what the time frame was going to be. In the last few months, the virus has drifted a tiny step closer to human spread but the research has yet to be published. It has been verbally reported by a researcher to others. It has spread to half of Africa, all of Asia, most of Eastern Europe and continues to infect humans. Several strains now exist, all equally deadly. All attempts to rid countries of the virus where it became firmly established have failed. So don't get too cocky. It ain't over til it's over.
 
It seems like every few years there's a new "scare" disease that's going to cause the next pandemic. Swine flu was supposed to be the killer, then Legionnaire's, then Ebola, then SARS, now bird flu. This too shall pass.
This may or may not pass. That a pandemic will arrive again is a near-certainty. There was the Asian flu in the '50s, the Hong Kong flu in the '60s, cholera in the '60s.

We are blessed by the ability to quickly learn what is happening around the world. If doctors in 1918 had foreknowledge of the severity of the Spanish Influenza, which killed perhaps 50 million people in a few months, should they not have taken every precaution to prevent or slow its spread?

On the other hand we have Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, who should be charged with practicing stupidity without a license:
My research was guided by two main questions: Who benefits the most from all the dead, rural chickens and why is this concentrated in humans living in Asia?
It must be a conspiracy that she hasn't received the Nobel Prize for medicine.
 
Flu is not to be taken lightly. While the majority of healthy adults will survive it, a pandemic would kill thousands, perhaps tens of thousands or more of the elderly, and thousands of infants and young children.

And Gravy is absolutely right, the arrival of another pandemic of the flu is only a question of when, not if.

TAM:)
 
I don't entirely agree with the Influenza Pandemic scares. I think the doom-saying fails to take into account just how unique the 1918-19 Influenza Pandemic actually was.

Labs that have produced controlled specimens of that particular strain have reported that it is an absolute monster of a virus, nothing like anything around at the moment.

It was a very unique set of circumstances that produced the pandemic. The first obvious factor is World War One. The trenches of the Western Front were a literal virus breeding ground. While the virus wasn't created by the trenches, this environment allowed for a rapid spread amongst a large number of people, allowing for rapid mutation into a dangerous strain. The other factor is it appeared at the end of the war. Millions upon millions of men left that narrow strip of land and returned home to the farthest corners of the world, where the virus spread rapidly. Quarantine methods were poor, and anyone with influenza-like symptoms (which includes virtually every illness there is, including the common cold) was quarantined along with infected people.

That's why we got the Pandemic. Even so, it only killed 2.5% - 5% of the world's population.

The worst Pandemic we've had is the Black Death, which wiped out about 1/3 to 2/3 of Europe's population in the mid 14th century (England lost as estimated 70% of its population). This is an excellent case study for a "worst case scenario", because the Black Death had a close to 100% mortality rate. Even so, this catastrophe was not solely the product of a pandemic - it was a disaster waiting to happen.

Throughout the preceding centuries, Europe's population exploded due to an extended warm period. The population density reached at the end of the 13th Century would not be matched by much of Europe until the 19th Century. At the same time grain yields had been falling, and food prices climbing. Then, at the beginning of the 14th Century, northern Europe suffered the worst weather of the entire Middle Ages, with extremely cold winters and wet summers. In 1315 the rain continued through all of Spring and Summer, thus the grain could not ripen. Food prices skyrocketed. This resulted in the Great Famine of 1315-1317. The wet weather continued, and millions starved. Cannibalism and child abandonment (think Hansel and Gretel) appeared across Europe. Populations did not begin to increase again until 1325 when food supplies finally stabilised.

And then, a decade later, the Black Death arrived.

What history tells us is that devastating pandemics do not appear suddenly without warning. They come on the tail end of preceding devastating events that weaken the population and leave it ripe for a catastrophe.

-Gumboot
 
Agreed, and the chances of us having such a virulent, deadly pandemic as those you have mentioned is slim. Not all pandemics are as such. My comment stands, however, that a world wide outbreak of influenza, in a virulent strain enough to cause death in the tens of thousands is going to come eventually.

As it is, yearly the flu kills thousands of people anyway.

Your knowledge of the circumstances around the outbreaks is quite impressive gumboot.

TAM:)
 
Agreed, and the chances of us having such a virulent, deadly pandemic as those you have mentioned is slim. Not all pandemics are as such. My comment stands, however, that a world wide outbreak of influenza, in a virulent strain enough to cause death in the tens of thousands is going to come eventually.

As it is, yearly the flu kills thousands of people anyway.

Your knowledge of the circumstances around the outbreaks is quite impressive gumboot.

TAM:)



My apologies, I am limiting my definition of "pandemic". I agree with you completely. I guess I am more looking at the catastrophic scale pandemic that kills a significant percentage of the total population - like the Spanish Flu or the Black Death. I bring this up because many are playing the "doom" card and implying that level of danger. In fact the New Zealand government has.

In my doctor's clinic there was a poster about Avian Bird Flu from the Ministry of Health which suggested a pandemic could kill huge numbers. I saw the same thing with the SARS virus.

I'm not saying there can't or won't be larger outbreaks that constitute pandemics. I agree with you that it's a case of "when" not "if". But I don't think it's possible for a population-depleting pandemic to occur without preceding circumstances that result in the population already being vulnerable.

It's kind of like, if you're fit and healthy you'll still get a cold, but it won't be bad. If you have just been sick and have a low immune system, and then get a cold, you're liable to become much sicker and get secondary infections, etc.

I think if we were hit with a series of pandemics one after the other, that could make us vulnerable to another pandemic causing this sort of disaster.

I also think other things like wars could result in a pandemic causing this sort of catastrophic situation in a limited region, say if there was an influenza pandemic and people in Darfur or Somalia caught it.

-Gumboot
 
Isn't osteopathy a plot to make $$$? I guess maybe it takes one to know one.


Not quite. Osteopaths can do most anything MD's can. They can, at least in Connecticut, prescribe drugs and perform surgery in addition to doing manipulations.

Chiropractic, on the other hand, is ridden with scam artists.

ETA: And, to respond to the earlier posts, I would agree that a pandemic is inevitable at some point. I don't think bird flu is the next one though. It seems to have largely dropped off the radar, much as SARS did. We may not be so lucky next time.
 
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Isn't osteopathy a plot to make $$$? I guess maybe it takes one to know one.

Not quite. Osteopaths can do most anything MD's can. They can, at least in Connecticut, prescribe drugs and perform surgery in addition to doing manipulations.

Chiropractic, on the other hand, is ridden with scam artists.

Having said that, it does seem to depend on the Osteopath:

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

And if you look at Doctor Tenpenny's Practice Website, it's obvious that she's parted company with evidence based medicine.

ETA: Check out the her recommended books, Kevin Trudeau is there...
 
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Can Osteopath's write prescriptions for ALL MEDICATIONS in Connecticut, and perform what kind of surgeries? AFAIK, they are not trained to the same degree as we are, but I will plead an little ignorance on the subject.

TAM:)
 
I don't entirely agree with the Influenza Pandemic scares. I think the doom-saying fails to take into account just how unique the 1918-19 Influenza Pandemic actually was....

It was a very unique set of circumstances that produced the pandemic. The first obvious factor is World War One......

What history tells us is that devastating pandemics do not appear suddenly without warning. They come on the tail end of preceding devastating events that weaken the population and leave it ripe for a catastrophe....

-Gumboot
You have one hypothesis, but it lacks the evidence revealed from advances in genetic science. As far as the unique circumstances in 1918, all pandemics have unique circumstances. The question is, which of those circumstances just give that pandemic a particular flavor, IE coincidental circumstances, and which of those unique circumstances were actually required for that particular event to have occurred?

Influenza doesn't need the unique circumstances of WWI to circulate every single year around the world. It doesn't need the unique circumstances of WWI to kill. It kills 20-40,000 every year just in the USA. And in 1918, the fatalities increased considerably in an age group not normally susceptible to fatal influenza. Unless those deaths were weary soldiers only (and they weren't) then it wasn't simply a matter of the population which differed. In addition, WWII didn't end with 50 million flu deaths. And, soldiers in some countries today live in conditions similar to those of the US and European soldiers during WWI without greatly increased flu fatalities such as those in 1918.

So it is more likely that the difference was the virus' lethality above all else.

The things which gave the 1918 pandemic its flavor included spread by large troop movements. Today we have jet travel. It marched from town to town in 1918. Today we have rapid dispersal. People work many miles from where they live rather than closer to home. Movement of people is in a tangled web pattern rather than more limited movement of growing up, living and dying in the same small town your parents lived.

Now add to that what genetic research is revealing about influenza. Read the first two links (they are short) to get an idea of the complex exchange of genetic material as H5N1 is tracked across the countries it is currently become endemic in. The second two links are 2 paragraph summaries of what has been discovered. I only left out the rosy, "and so we are developing products...blah blah blah" parts from the quotes.

H5N1 Evolution in Indonesian Alternative Reservoirs

H5N1 Evolution in Indonesia

Viral Evolution
Viruses can evolve in a short time frame. .... To rapidly evolve, viruses use recombination, which involves swapping of genetic information within specific genes. This is accomplished by a "copy choice" method in cells infected by two distinct viruses.

The recombination mechanism recycles polymorphisms in various combinations. These polymorphisms have already been selected over millions of years, and the virus simply creates new combinations to evade immune surveillance or drug treatments. Recombination follows specific rules that can be used to predict the sequence of emerging viruses.

Paradigm Shift
The analysis of recombination will generate a paradigm shift in the way molecular evolution is viewed. Influenza is an ideal system for studying molecular evolution. Viruses are generally thought to evolve via shifting and drifting. Shifting occurs when viruses swap genes and drifting was thought to be due to a steady accumulation of mutations.

However, rapidly evolving viruses simply recycle old mutations via recombination. This method is much more efficient and follows specific rules. These rules appear to be followed by all viruses, including influenza, HIV, SARS, WNV.

So what you have are genetic markers that emerged in one strain (because mutation does continue) turning up in a number of other strains in a short period of time. A little bit of Africa here, a little bit of Indonesia there and so on. All the while many of these particular HPAI H5N1 strains retain their lethality and their propensity to cross the species barriers and infect mammals in particular.

I suggest you stay tuned.
 
...And if you look at Doctor Tenpenny's Practice Website, it's obvious that she's parted company with evidence based medicine....
No kidding. She's apparently treating autism with chelating agents to remove toxic heavy metals. You have to wonder how she ever got a degree.

Quackwatch says this about Chelation and Osteopathy:
Chelation Therapy

Chelation therapy is a series of intravenous infusions containing EDTA and various other substances. Proponents claim it is effective against atherosclerosis and many other serious health problems. However, no controlled trial has shown that chelation therapy can help any of them. Chelation therapy with EDTA is one of several legitimate methods for treating cases of lead poisoning, but the protocol differs from that used inappropriately for other conditions. To its credit, the AOA has adopted a negative position statement on chelation therapy:

WHEREAS, chelation therapy utilizing calcium disodium edetateis currently labeled by the Food and Drug Administration and recognized by most physicians as medically acceptable only in the management of acute or chronic heavy metal poisoning; now, therefore, be it

RESOLVED, that pending the results of thorough, properly controlled studies, the American Osteopathic Association does not endorse chelation therapy as useful for other than its currently approved and medically accepted uses. Adopted 1985, revised and reaffirmed, 1990, 1995 [11].
 
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Influenza doesn't need the unique circumstances of WWI to circulate every single year around the world. It doesn't need the unique circumstances of WWI to kill. It kills 20-40,000 every year just in the USA. And in 1918, the fatalities increased considerably in an age group not normally susceptible to fatal influenza.


I made no claim that influenza does not kill normally. Of course it does. The Spanish Flu was so severe because it bred itself in the trenches of WWI.


Unless those deaths were weary soldiers only (and they weren't) then it wasn't simply a matter of the population which differed.


You missed my point. The Trenches provided the breeding ground, with a large, weak population to grow in. Those soldiers headed home, and infected the ENTIRE population. And a primary reason for the high numbers of deaths was quarantine methods which put uninfected people in with infected people. In 1918 there was no way of determining what kind of illness a person had. The first viral test kit - for the Epstein-Barr virus - was developed by Gull Laboratories in the 1970's. If you stick a sick uninfected person in a room full of people infected with the virus, of course they're going to contract it and die.



In addition, WWII didn't end with 50 million flu deaths. And, soldiers in some countries today live in conditions similar to those of the US and European soldiers during WWI without greatly increased flu fatalities such as those in 1918.


A statement like that reveals just how ignorant you are of conditions in the trenches of the Western Front. No war, before or since, has resulted in conditions like that. Slightly more men returned from WWII than WWI, but whereas the vast majority of WWI combatants had been located in a narrow strip, in the same abysmal conditions for years, combatants from WWII were spread across the entire globe in a rapidly changing front. In addition, advances in troop morale and medical research determined that those fighting in WWII were make better looked after (relatively speaking) than soldiers in WWI.

I challenge you to find me a single military conflict today that bears even remote resemblance to the Ypres Salient of late 1914 - 1918.




So it is more likely that the difference was the virus' lethality above all else.

The things which gave the 1918 pandemic its flavor included spread by large troop movements. Today we have jet travel. It marched from town to town in 1918. Today we have rapid dispersal. People work many miles from where they live rather than closer to home. Movement of people is in a tangled web pattern rather than more limited movement of growing up, living and dying in the same small town your parents lived.



At the end of World War One 57 million men, many of them infected with Spanish Flu, returned home and infected their nations. That amounts to about 3% of the world's population at the time.

Today, an estimated 750 million people travel by air every year - 12.5% of the world's population. Certainly this offers a method for rapid spread of the virus. The thing is, that's not enough. In the case of WWI, the vast majority of those 57 million men were from the same 100 mile wide strip of land which was infested with the virus.

The 750 million travelling every year by air not only go to every corner of the world, they COME from every corner of the world. By and large, they don't come from places with highly concentrated outbreaks of the virus already present.

In 1918 you had 3% of the world's population in one small area, infected with the virus, and then in the space of months, these people returned home all over the world. Such a scenario is highly unlikely to occur now. I cannot think of a single reason 180 million people all from one localised place, would travel all over the world in a short space of time. Can you?

In summary:

1) The Spanish Flu was provided with a large concentrated population (constituting a significant percentage of total global population) with very low immunity in which to grow and mutate itself virtually unhindered.

2) This population then spread itself across the world in a very short space of time.

3) Sick but uninfected people were quarantined with infected people and not treated.

The above are the unique circumstances that produced the 1918/19 Pandemic. These circumstances are highly unlikely to recreate themselves in today's society.

1) There is no current concentration, nor any logical reason for producing such a concentration, of a significant percentage of the world's population, with very low immunity and no action to prevent spread of the virus.

2) There is no reason for a large concentration of people from multiple countries, thus no reason for a rapid international spread of infected population, even were condition 1) met. Large concentrated populations with low immunity and poor healthcare tend to be poor population groups who cannot afford travel to other countries.

3) Modern treatment methods are far superior to those of 1918/19. Viral test kits were first developed in the mid 1970's, thus medical practitioners can determine precisely what virus a person has, and treat them accordingly. Those with other illnesses can also be identified, rather than being concentrated with infected persons.

Will a flu pandemic occur? Yes. Depending on how you define it, they occur every year. Will a flu pandemic kill a significant (+1%) percentage of the world's population? highly unlikely.

-Gumboot
 
I made no claim that influenza does not kill normally. Of course it does. The Spanish Flu was so severe because it bred itself in the trenches of WWI.
Besides your personal hypothesis, which other experts agree with you here?

You missed my point. The Trenches provided the breeding ground, with a large, weak population to grow in.
Just what grew there Gumboot, that wouldn't grow in every third world country today?

Those soldiers headed home, and infected the ENTIRE population. And a primary reason for the high numbers of deaths was quarantine methods which put uninfected people in with infected people.

In 1918 there was no way of determining what kind of illness a person had. The first viral test kit - for the Epstein-Barr virus - was developed by Gull Laboratories in the 1970's. If you stick a sick uninfected person in a room full of people infected with the virus, of course they're going to contract it and die....
Your premise is that more people were infected leading to more deaths. Regardless of the accuracy of the epidemiology in 1918, the evidence does not support that speculation. If you think it does, provide some experts who agree with you, or explain why you know something influenza experts have not considered.

...A statement like that reveals just how ignorant you are of conditions in the trenches of the Western Front. No war, before or since, has resulted in conditions like that. Slightly more men returned from WWII than WWI, but whereas the vast majority of WWI combatants had been located in a narrow strip, in the same abysmal conditions for years, combatants from WWII were spread across the entire globe in a rapidly changing front. In addition, advances in troop morale and medical research determined that those fighting in WWII were make better looked after (relatively speaking) than soldiers in WWI.

I challenge you to find me a single military conflict today that bears even remote resemblance to the Ypres Salient of late 1914 - 1918.
Relax a minute, stop acting like your ego is at stake here. It isn't. But you are relying on your preconceived notion of what happened in the 1918 flu pandemic and it lacks expertise in virology.

I know what the trenches were like. I also know what the third world is like and what the influenza virus is like. I work every day with infectious disease. Find me a source of expertise that agrees with your hypothesis or explain why you have it figured out and the virologists who know the most about pandemic flu haven't supported your hypothesis. That would give your hypothesis more credibility.

But without corroborating expertise, you are simply drawing conclusions from a lay person's perspective. And the experts in influenza are suggesting a different hypothesis. The viral evolution is the key here, not WWI conditions in the trenches.

At the end of World War One 57 million men, many of them infected with Spanish Flu, returned home and infected their nations. That amounts to about 3% of the world's population at the time.

Today, an estimated 750 million people travel by air every year - 12.5% of the world's population. Certainly this offers a method for rapid spread of the virus. The thing is, that's not enough. In the case of WWI, the vast majority of those 57 million men were from the same 100 mile wide strip of land which was infested with the virus.

The 750 million travelling every year by air not only go to every corner of the world, they COME from every corner of the world. By and large, they don't come from places with highly concentrated outbreaks of the virus already present.

In 1918 you had 3% of the world's population in one small area, infected with the virus, and then in the space of months, these people returned home all over the world. Such a scenario is highly unlikely to occur now. I cannot think of a single reason 180 million people all from one localised place, would travel all over the world in a short space of time. Can you?

In summary:

1) The Spanish Flu was provided with a large concentrated population (constituting a significant percentage of total global population) with very low immunity in which to grow and mutate itself virtually unhindered.

2) This population then spread itself across the world in a very short space of time.

3) Sick but uninfected people were quarantined with infected people and not treated.

The above are the unique circumstances that produced the 1918/19 Pandemic. These circumstances are highly unlikely to recreate themselves in today's society.

1) There is no current concentration, nor any logical reason for producing such a concentration, of a significant percentage of the world's population, with very low immunity and no action to prevent spread of the virus.

2) There is no reason for a large concentration of people from multiple countries, thus no reason for a rapid international spread of infected population, even were condition 1) met. Large concentrated populations with low immunity and poor healthcare tend to be poor population groups who cannot afford travel to other countries.

3) Modern treatment methods are far superior to those of 1918/19. Viral test kits were first developed in the mid 1970's, thus medical practitioners can determine precisely what virus a person has, and treat them accordingly. Those with other illnesses can also be identified, rather than being concentrated with infected persons.

Will a flu pandemic occur? Yes. Depending on how you define it, they occur every year. Will a flu pandemic kill a significant (+1%) percentage of the world's population? highly unlikely.

-Gumboot
I offered you an entire avenue of new revelations genetic science has discovered about influenza. You've ignored it and stuck with your initial hypothesis. You can't seem to grasp the fact you are speculating with only half the expertise and those with much more expertise are not pursuing your hypothesis. This isn't my speculating vs your speculating. I am trying to share some incredible new discoveries about the evolution of the influenza virus with you and the other members of the forum.
 
Can Osteopath's write prescriptions for ALL MEDICATIONS in Connecticut, and perform what kind of surgeries? AFAIK, they are not trained to the same degree as we are, but I will plead an little ignorance on the subject.

TAM:)

In Connecticut, osteopaths can prescribe all drugs, including narcotics and investigational drugs (all DEA schedules). They can perform surgery, but at least in our practice that is limited to relatively simple procedures like joint cyst drainage, colon polyp removal, etc. They are not trained to the same degree as an MD; four years after receiving bachelor's in any discipline (pre-med is not required). They don't receive extensive training in pharmacology or surgical technique. They devote a lot more time to orthopedics, manipulative technique, vascular things, and a liberal dose of woo (Still's work, etc.)

We have a couple of them in our practice, and I would have to say that I rate them below the MDs in terms of competence. One of them misdiagnosed my case of shingles, and that misdiagnosis led to me getting Bell's palsy and losing mobility on the right side of my face for a while. I then went to my MD who immediately saw the problem and started me on appropriate treatment.

So, OK, I may be biased, but I stand by my assertion that a DO is an MD Lite.
 

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