-
Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more
Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity
- Thread starter DOC
- Start date
- Status
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2006
- Messages
- 23,336
Exactly. The government does not concern itself with the operation of any religious organization. It doesn't approve or disapprove of any religious doctrine.
I'm sorry, could you please clarify this statement? Are you arguing that this gives any and all religious organizations the right to impose their will on others because the law can do nothing to stop them?
Because he is a paranoid advocate of a theocracy of his choosing and those books are among his works of propaganda.
Except for not having written any books (and apparently not being too careful when reading any) sounds like DUC.
Cleon
King of the Pod People
Several things:
#1, this is called an "Appeal to authority." It is a logical fallacy.
#2, it's because "Dr." James Kennedy is full of male bovine fecal matter.
#3, I am very skeptical that more people listen to James Kennedy than, say, Ian Paisley. (I am also skeptical that you even know who that is, but I digress.)
Ergo:
You accused the ACLU (and other groups) of dictating what churches can and cannot do.
That is a complete and total lie.
And no amount of dancing will change that.
Mojo
Mostly harmless
RandFan
Mormon Atheist
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2001
- Messages
- 60,135
Cleon
King of the Pod People
Yes, but probably not the one he wanted to hear.
Originally Posted by DOC
Now notice the 1st Amendment "only" says what "Congress" can't do. It says nothing about what the "church" can't do.
Then why does our money have "In God We Trust on it"? And Why do we have 2 religious holidays "Christmas and Thanksgiving" that are also federal holidays in which federal employees get paid days off.
_____
Quote by Doc:
And yet groups (liberals, ACLU, etc.) have completely turned this {1st Amendment} around to say what the Church can and can not do.
No, I'm just saying that the Constitution only says what Congress can't do, not the Church or the church members individually. Or not atheists or atheist members. But all that Changed in the 1947 case we've already talked about involving former ACLU committee member Leo Pfiffer and former KKK member Justice Hugo Black.
________
Now notice the 1st Amendment "only" says what "Congress" can't do. It says nothing about what the "church" can't do.
Then why does our money have "In God We Trust on it"? And Why do we have 2 religious holidays "Christmas and Thanksgiving" that are also federal holidays in which federal employees get paid days off.
_____
Quote by Doc:
And yet groups (liberals, ACLU, etc.) have completely turned this {1st Amendment} around to say what the Church can and can not do.
Foster Zygote said:
No, I'm just saying that the Constitution only says what Congress can't do, not the Church or the church members individually. Or not atheists or atheist members. But all that Changed in the 1947 case we've already talked about involving former ACLU committee member Leo Pfiffer and former KKK member Justice Hugo Black.
________
Last edited:
Mojo
Mostly harmless
slingblade
Unregistered
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2005
- Messages
- 23,466
Why do you think?
_____
ACLU of Nebraska Defends Church Facing Eviction by the City of Lincoln (8/11/2004)
Phoenix Bus Advertising Policy Challenged
Religious Organizations and ACLU Say the Policy Violates First Amendment "This is the first case in any court in which the ACLJ and the ACLU have joined together in a civil rights lawsuit."
Oh, oops! Looks like your favorite group is willing to work with the enemy for a common cause! Oh, my!
Quote by DOC;
Then why does #1 listened to presbyterian preacher in the world, Dr. James Kennedy, have a website with the following books listed:
"Indefensible: 10 Ways the ACLU is Destroying America"
"ACLU: The Devil's Advocate"
"Taking Liberties: The Legacy of the ACLU"
"The ACLU vs. America"
Indefensible: The 10 ways the ACLU is destroying America; ACLU: The Devil's Advocate; and The ACLU vs. America were not written by Dr. Kennedy. They were written by others.
The book "ACLU: The Devil's Advocate" was reviewed on Amazon.com. Here is a portion of that review.
"This book was more than fair to the ACLU and the logic used in it is very impressive... Smith spoke openly and candidly of the good, yes, the GOOD that the ACLU had done. Yet he also pierces the organizations veil like high a powered laser showing how from a idealistic liberty pursing start the ACLU has slid to be a schizophrenic puppet of the ultra liberal left."
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/cu...=books&qid=1181543246&sr=1-14#customerReviews
Then why does #1 listened to presbyterian preacher in the world, Dr. James Kennedy, have a website with the following books listed:
"Indefensible: 10 Ways the ACLU is Destroying America"
"ACLU: The Devil's Advocate"
"Taking Liberties: The Legacy of the ACLU"
"The ACLU vs. America"
Indefensible: The 10 ways the ACLU is destroying America; ACLU: The Devil's Advocate; and The ACLU vs. America were not written by Dr. Kennedy. They were written by others.
The book "ACLU: The Devil's Advocate" was reviewed on Amazon.com. Here is a portion of that review.
"This book was more than fair to the ACLU and the logic used in it is very impressive... Smith spoke openly and candidly of the good, yes, the GOOD that the ACLU had done. Yet he also pierces the organizations veil like high a powered laser showing how from a idealistic liberty pursing start the ACLU has slid to be a schizophrenic puppet of the ultra liberal left."
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/cu...=books&qid=1181543246&sr=1-14#customerReviews
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2006
- Messages
- 23,336
Our money began carrying "In God We Trust" as a result of politics during the civil war. It's still a violation of the establishment clause. Those federal holidays are not officially Christian holidays. But because so many people do celebrate Christmas and Thanksgiving federal holidays have been timed to coincide with them.
Please read the following carefully and then indicate where this opinion states what any church or religious entity can or cannot do. Please be specific.
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2006
- Messages
- 23,336
And? You asked why he had those books on his site. I still stand by my response. Those titles are on Kennedy's because he agrees with them. They are among his works of propaganda even if they are not from his own pen.
Who is this reviewer? Why is his opinion especially valid? You can't just quote anything from some guy that happens to have written on the internet and expect it to carry weight in an argument.
Cleon
King of the Pod People
Hey DOC,
Instead of this bizarre appeal to authority, how about a genuine example of the ACLU telling churches what they can and cannot do?
I'll bet you can't do it...
Because it's a complete fabrication.
Instead of this bizarre appeal to authority, how about a genuine example of the ACLU telling churches what they can and cannot do?
I'll bet you can't do it...
Because it's a complete fabrication.
DOC,
Hi! I've been wanting to get back to this thread for some time now, but I am very slow. (And, this week, I am extremely short on sleep, on free time, and on computer access.)
At some point -- perhaps next week -- I'd like to return to the subject of Thomas Jefferson, especially to the matter of his part in the effort to design a seal for the United States, since I think that provides a good example of how you are being deceived by people like David Barton.
But this thread has drifted on to other topics, such as Misty Newberry and the national "See You At The Pole" demonstration at which she was detained by the police. I'm away from home at the moment, but before I took off on this trip I e-mailed myself some notes about this matter which I'd been intending to post in this thread. My computer time is almost up already today, but I'll try to post a quick reply or two now and address more of this subject tomorrow.
Hi! I've been wanting to get back to this thread for some time now, but I am very slow. (And, this week, I am extremely short on sleep, on free time, and on computer access.)
At some point -- perhaps next week -- I'd like to return to the subject of Thomas Jefferson, especially to the matter of his part in the effort to design a seal for the United States, since I think that provides a good example of how you are being deceived by people like David Barton.
But this thread has drifted on to other topics, such as Misty Newberry and the national "See You At The Pole" demonstration at which she was detained by the police. I'm away from home at the moment, but before I took off on this trip I e-mailed myself some notes about this matter which I'd been intending to post in this thread. My computer time is almost up already today, but I'll try to post a quick reply or two now and address more of this subject tomorrow.
Yes. As I wrote in post # 979, that news item came from a feature syndicated by Religious News Service to papers around the country. The byline entry on the electronic document copy sent to me by the Rutherford Institute is CHRINE LEHMANN, which I believe is a computer mis-entry for Christine Lehmann.
That's sufficient to satisfy my curiosity for the moment, although I can check up the exact name of the author for you in a few weeks if you'd like. I am pretty sure the Knoxville News Sentinel is one of the papers which carries the religion section, and I will be visiting Knoxville in mid-June so should be able to look this up and photocopy it from microfilm then. I offered in my previous post to send you a copy of the electronic document by PM or e-mail; same offer holds if you would like me to mail you a photocopy of the story from microfilm.
Or, if you are truly interested and don't care to wait that long, you can probably find and copy the article for yourself much sooner than I'll be able to. I don't know where you live, but it is very likely that one of the major newspapers in your state carries the Religious News Service feature. If you live near a college or university, the library there will likely have state newspapers on microfilm which you can look up. Large public libraries also often have microfilm newspaper collections.
However, the byline on that piece doesn't seem particularly important to me. This is, as I noted above, a compilation of brief news items from around the country. I'm fairly sure that Lehmann didn't fly around the country each week to cover things such as the school board meeting at which ACLJ represented Misty Newberry. These stories were covered by local people; Lehmann's byline on the piece indicates to me that she either was the person at RNS who compiled stories to send out in that week's package or the person at the Florida newspaper who decided which items from that week's package to use and who edited them to fit the available space.
edited to add: I wrote the above before taking off on this trip. Since then, I have been able to check both the Knoxville and Atlanta newspapers. Neither one carried those particular religion news briefs. (Religion received very minor newspaper coverage back in 1991; both papers devote more space to it now.)
The day I will have the most time to spend in a library, and will be spending time in a university library, will be Sunday. There's a good chance one of the newspapers in the UT library collection will have this item.
We've been over this before (your memory is short). When I say "the Church" I mean what the dictionary says it means when "Church" is capitalized. The entire "body" of the Church (which includes individual members and organizations that profess some beliefs or customs of the Church). So when those boys scouts (who have some Christian beliefs) in San Diego wanted to continue using their 89 year lease, the ACLU (and eventually the judge and a nearly million dollar payout by the city) comes along with that ol' Separation of Church and state lingo and says Hey boy scouts, Hey San Diego, sorry you can't do what you been doing for 89 years {not because of what the 1st amendment says, but because of some legal concept created in 1947 (Separation of Church and State) says}.
Here are some other examples from the article "The ACLU's 80 year war on American Values" by Alan Sears and Craig Osten.
http://www.coralridge.org/imp/impact09056.aspx
• Parents {individual members of "the Church"} cannot limit their children’s exposure to, or participation in, public school classes and assemblies on any topic — except Orthodox Jewish or Christian teachings — that violates the family’s core religious and moral beliefs.
• Public schools cannot observe recognized religious, historical, and cultural holidays such as Christmas, Easter, or Hanukkah, despite hundreds of years of American tradition. {traditions of individual members of "the Church" or synogogue}. {Those traditions existed for hundreds of years (mostly because the 1947 court case with Leo Pfiffer and Hugo Black didn't happen yet).}
_________
Also, off the top of my head, I remotely remember the ACLU complaining about some underwater statue of Jesus in the ocean. I don't have the time right now, maybe somebody can look that up on the internet.
Last edited:
- Status