Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity

[DOC]

Considering the tags now have nothing to do with the OP of this thread, I'd say his playing with the tags is a bit dishonest.

I knew you'd be back even though you said you were done with this forum. I'm still waiting for the Where, where, where, where did Sekulow lie as you stated he did in this forum. If you made a mistake, then admit it, like I did earlier.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

I knew you'd be back even though you said you were done with this forum.

Sigh... O.k. I'm done with this retard too.

Unsubbing...

 

[kmortis]

Yes, I just read the Randi guidelines for tags and it says this:

"The simplest way to use tags is to describe a thread’s subject. However you are not limited to that for example you could use tags to tag any locations, names, people, places or ideas in a thread -- pretty much anything you can think of."

If the above is true then I don't understand why my tags keep getting erased.

For Example when I tag "Lincolns second inaugural" or "Ben Franklins letter" or "Benjamin Rush letter" (where Jefferson claims he is a Christian) -- all important subjects we've talked about.

Well, if my tags keep getting erased I guess there's nothing I can do about it.

[tagger]
Because, while some of those thing have been discussed, they aren't rely what this thead is about, ya dig? They aren't really topics. "church state separation" is what tge whole thread purports to be about.
[/tagger]

 

[wahrheit]

But Washington did want chaplains and according to Newsweek (as I've already metioned in this post) he wrote it in 50 letters saying so. That's not my opinion that's a fact. And praying students were handcuffed. That's not my opinion that's a fact.

So you want the tags to reflect the contents of this thread?

Then why not add the following:

- my fantasy world
- fundie aclu bashing
- propaganda instead of facts
- what is research?
- screw the sources
- quote mining
- repetition is good
- thinking is bad

 

[Mojo]

Everyone who actually reads this thread knows that the little button at the end of "quote=whoever" links back to the original post. Did you really think people reading here didn't know that, or that they didn't notice where I asked you specifically for 1 example of the occurances listed instead of the supposed 10 or 20 or 130 or whatever numbers Sekulow claimed? Do you really think people involved in this thread needed you to repost the original in it's entirety again and wouldn't notice that you didn't do what I asked for?

Since DOC objects to this, perhaps he should back up his assertion by providing evidence for all:

20 instances of students being prevented from praying or being subjected to discipline for praying

106 instances in which students were disciplined or corrected for bringing a bible or a religious book with them to school or reading their bibles or religious books on campus

51 instances of students disciplined for, or barred from, sharing religious writings with students

130 instances of school officials barring the formation of student-led bible clubs or prayer groups, or denying such groups equal access in accord with federal law

65 instances of students being denied a grade or being required to redo an assignment because of the inclusion of religious content in their work

48 instances of restricting or prohibiting the wearing of shirts, clothing or jewelry bearing religious messages

48 instances of students or student groups being denied the opportunity to participate in music or talent shows because of religious content in their performances

Off you go, DOC. You have some research to do.

 

[DOC]

Are you going actually contact the ACLJ and get actual evidence or are you going to continue to repeat yourself and say nothing?

How many times do I have to tell you, If your "really really" interested in seeing all the instances of students rights being violated then contact the American Center of Law and Justice yourself. I simply quoted Congressional Testimony by 2 attorneys. I've seen Jay Sekulow at least 8 times on TV. I trust him and his organization. If you don't then you don't. Why do you think they even had the congressional hearing in the first place. Obviously there has been a lot of complaints. We know a principal and and a school district office were capable of calling the police on praying students.

If you were really interested you would contact them yourself. Why should I take the time to do something for someone who has been rude several times.If you or any one else doesn't believe the Congressional testimony by lawyers who can be disbarred for lying to Congress then you don't believe it -- Case Closed. If you want to continue wasting everyone's time by asking the same request then go ahead, it shows you don't have much else to offer.

 

[Foster Zygote]

If you were really interested you would contact them yourself.

If it was really there to be found I think you would have provided it by now. Are you saying that you've never actually seen this evidence yourself?

 

[DOC]

Since DOC objects to this, perhaps he should back up his assertion by providing evidence for all:

I was just quoting Congressional testimony by two lawyers. As I stated above, if you or anyone else doesn't believe it then you don't believe it. Nobody is stopping you from requesting the info yourself -- that is if your really interested.

 

[DOC]

If it was really there to be found I think you would have provided it by now. Are you saying that you've never actually seen this evidence yourself?

No, I haven't seen any written reports, but I've seen Sekulow on TV many times talking about cases. I mean do your really think the public school teacher in Utah would be able to attend that after hour bible club on public school property if it wasn't for the American Center of Law and Justice. And do you really think that students would be able to make announcements over the PA system in public schools about their bible clubs if it wasn't for groups like the American Center for Law and Justice. If sports clubs or photography clubs can make announcements then bible clubs can make annoucements, as long as its not being disruptive, otherwise it shows that the school is being hostile and prejudice toward religion.


And If you don't think the evidence is there to be found then you or anyone else can write your senator and demand it. It seems that the people in the Congressional hearing trusted Sekulow. I don't recall them asking for any additional written evidence. Maybe that was because they were hearing so much testimony. Nobody is stopping you from writing your representatives and asking for the info. Once again, that is if your really interested.

 

[kmortis]

No, I haven't seen any written reports, but I've seen Sekulow on TV many times talking about cases. I mean do your really think the public school teacher in Utah would be able to attend that after hour bible club on public school property if it wasn't for the American Center of Law and Justice. And do you really think that students would be able to make announcements over the PA system in public schools about their bible clubs if it wasn't for groups like the American Center for Law and Justice. If sports clubs or photography clubs can make announcements then bible clubs can make annoucements, as long as its not being disruptive, otherwise it shows that the school is being hostile and prejudice toward religion.

Um...yes. I had a bible study when I was in high school, and since I graduated the year before the ACLJ was founded AND we had a faculty member in attendance, yes, I do think that it would be possible without them. We never had reason to announce anything, so I can't speak to the announcement part.

 

[slingblade]

No, I haven't seen any written reports, but I've seen Sekulow on TV many times talking about cases.

I haven't, and I find your previous assertions suspect, so I do not believe you.

I mean do your really think the public school teacher in Utah would be able to attend that after hour bible club on public school property if it wasn't for the American Center of Law and Justice.

Yes, I know she can, because she is constitutionally protected.

And do you really think that students would be able to make announcements over the PA system in public schools about their bible clubs if it wasn't for groups like the American Center for Law and Justice.

Yes. I know they can, because they are constitutionally protected.

If sports clubs or photography clubs can make announcements then bible clubs can make annoucements, as long as its not being disruptive,

Yes, we know that. It is constitutionally protected.

otherwise it shows that the school is being hostile and prejadice toward religion.

You misspelled "prejudiced."

What any of this shows is that certain school administrators don't understand their roles under constitutional law. Some of them make mistakes. These mistakes are correctable.

No school child in America has ever been fingerprinted, booked, placed in a cell, gone to trial and/or been convicted of the non-crime of voluntarily praying in a public school.

Show me one who has. I dare you.

Once again, that is if your really interested.

Not really. I already know the truth and you can't be educated.

 

[Hawk one]

I mean do your really think the public school teacher in Utah would be able to attend that after hour bible club on public school property if it wasn't for the American Center of Law and Justice.

Yep. As long as it wasn't in any way funded by the government, the ACLU - despite your previous and exposed lies about them - would have helped in making this possible, had someone brought it to their attention. That's what they do, after all. Ensure freedom of speech.

Also, the reason we ask you for evidence is because you keep coming up with claims. If you can't provide proper evidence for your claims when asked for it, why should we take you seriously? And if you were really interested in knowing the truth of this matter instead of going with whatever suits your prejudices best, then you would have started researching for this evidence long ago. The fact that you don't, and the fact you repeatedly ignore all the evidence we bring forth to you - unless we make sure you have no choice but to look at it - speaks volumes about your dishonesty.

When will you start looking for the truth? When will you start doing proper research from unbiased sources to back up your claims with? When will you stop lying?

 

[DOC]

Um...yes. I had a bible study when I was in high school, and since I graduated the year before the ACLJ was founded AND we had a faculty member in attendance, yes, I do think that it would be possible without them. We never had reason to announce anything, so I can't speak to the announcement part.

Well school officials in the Utah case told the teacher she couldn't attend. Then the ACLJ got involved and she was then allowed to attend.

 

[DOC]

When will you start looking for the truth? When will you start doing proper research from unbiased sources to back up your claims with? When will you stop lying?

Same ol', same ol' attack the messenger. Where have I told lies about the ACLU like you claim?

 

[Cleon]

Same ol', same ol' attack the messenger.

If being called a liar bothers you, you might want to...Stop lying.

Where have I told lies about the ACLU like you claim?

Wow, this took all of ten seconds to find:

Now notice the 1st Admendment "only" says what "Congress" can't do. It says nothing about what the "church" can't do. And yet groups (liberals, ACLU, etc.) have completely turned this around to say what the Church can and can not do.

This is a lie about the ACLU. The ACLU has never dictated "what the Church can and can not do." Nor have they advocated doing so.

And let's not forget that bit about the ACLU "pocketing taxpayer money" in the Boy Scouts case. The fact of the matter was that the court ordered their court costs to be reimbursed. Yet you kept claiming that they "pocketed taxpayer money"--which was 100% lie.

Again--if you don't like being called a liar, quit lying. The more BS you spew, the more you're going to get called on it. Whine about "attacking the messenger" all you like. You're not going to get any different until you show at least some interest in telling the truth.

 

[kmortis]

Well school officials in the Utah case told the teacher she couldn't attend. Then the ACLJ got involved and she was then allowed to attend.

Then, if the case is as you have stated, then the school officials were wrong and should have a three day suspension.

It has been stated in this thread many times that there are going to be some school boards who are a touch conservative in this arena. They're going to err on the side of caution so as to not offend anyone...and end up offending everyone.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I mean do your really think the public school teacher in Utah would be able to attend that after hour bible club on public school property if it wasn't for the American Center of Law and Justice.

Yes, I do. In fact, I'll bet that if the teacher and students had contacted the ACLU they would have been willing to represent them as they have a right to meet together just like the French Club, History Club, Dungeons & Dragons Club or heck, even the Atheist Club. This whole "Evil, atheist, Communist, queer loving, Jesus hating, smut peddling, liberals are trying to make it illegal for you to pray and soon the black helicopters will be using listening devices to detect prayers in your own home and the NWO Stormtroopers will be breaking down your doors and hauling you and your children off for re-programming" is wearing a bit thin. As long as the Bible Club meets during off hours and isn't part of the school curricula they have as much right as the Glee Club, the Muslim Club, or the Gay Teens Club etc. to meet. Students and faculty can pray all they want too as long as it doesn't interfere with the curricula and it isn't forced upon students in any "official" capacity. If a student wants to say a quick prayer before a test that's perfectly within his/her rights as a citizen as long as the prayer doesn't disturb other students during their studies. An example of the sort of thing that is illegal would be the superintendent using the PA system prior to the SAT exams to announce "And now all students and faculty bow your heads as I recite a prayer to our lord Jesus Christ".

The reason the after school club is legal is that it does not interfere with the standard curricula, it is not imposed as an official religious activity of a state institution, and those who want nothing to do with it have the freedom to have nothing to do with it. The school is simply providing a space where students with a common interest can meet.

The reason the pre-test PA prayer announcement is illegal is because it involves a state institution imposing a religious practice on everyone regardless of their own desires.

 

[Mojo]

Where have I told lies about the ACLU like you claim?

How about this:

Once again we have a bitter "attack the messenger" message. And in addition to the rude bitter remark, it might contain false information because it implies that all the 250,000 dollars in taxpayer money went to the relevant court system. But if we are to believe the article I originally quoted "The ACLU vs the Boy Scouts" by Hans Zeigler. That money in court costs went to the ACLU:

"Under terms of the new settlement, San Diego must request Judge Jones to cancel the Boy Scouts' lease on Balboa Park. The city will also pay the ACLU nearly $1 million in court costs and attorney fees, which will, of course, help finance further attacks against the Boy Scouts.

Now that the City of San Diego has given up on the Boy Scouts of America, a nearly 90-year relationship has come to an end."

Although I didn't realise it at the time I replied to that post, you had already been told that money paid as costs goes to pay the costs of the successful party, and does not become their money.

 

[DOC]

Originally Posted by DOC
Now notice the 1st Amendment "only" says what "Congress" can't do. It says nothing about what the "church" can't do. And yet groups (liberals, ACLU, etc.) have completely turned this around to say what the Church can and can not do.

This is a lie about the ACLU. The ACLU has never dictated "what the Church can and can not do." Nor have they advocated doing so.

Then why does #1 listened to presbyterian preacher in the world, Dr. James Kennedy, have a website with the following books listed:

"Indefensible: 10 Ways the ACLU is Destroying America"

"ACLU: The Devil's Advocate"

"Taking Liberties: The Legacy of the ACLU"

"The ACLU vs. America"

http://www.coralridge.org/CRMMinResD...14421&ec=I1301

 

[fuelair]

How many times do I have to tell you, If your "really really" interested in seeing all the instances of students rights being violated then contact the American Center of Law and Justice yourself. I simply quoted Congressional Testimony by 2 attorneys. I've seen Jay Sekulow at least 8 times on TV. I trust him and his organization. If you don't then you don't. Why do you think they even had the congressional hearing in the first place. Obviously there has been a lot of complaints. We know a principal and and a school district office were capable of calling the police on praying students.

If you were really interested you would contact them yourself. Why should I take the time to do something for someone who has been rude several times.If you or any one else doesn't believe the Congressional testimony by lawyers who can be disbarred for lying to Congress then you don't believe it -- Case Closed. If you want to continue wasting everyone's time by asking the same request then go ahead, it shows you don't have much else to offer.

You are not doing "something for someone who has been rude several times".
You are (or are not) proving that something you have said/implied in this thread actually has some tiny shred of truth - although you are trying to use a very poor source to prove it by - I wouldn't trust anything a group with that kind of orientation has to say about law - or anything else.