The 9/11 Conspiracy Facts

Was a new PH propitiosu to policy for PNAC.

So, given that 911 was both catastrophic and catalysing, it was a new PH in the sense that PNAC meant.

In an interview with Time magazine in 2004, President Bush declared the war in Iraq a "catastrophic success."
Maybe Cheney told him to say that. :D


Sen. John Edwards responds in the Washington Post: "I, like most Americans, have no idea what that means."
 
But this is pretty much what is said in the doc, directly!
No it isn't.
The PNAC document contains recommendations for effecting a military transformation over many years. It is an outline of a plan. That plan does not include reliance on a "catastrophic and catalyzing" event to effect the change. As any strategist knows, when catastrophic events happen, the best-laid plans can go out the window. Just ask the neo-cons how their Bush administration plans have worked out, how the administration's popularity has been affected, how the last national elections went, and who controls Congress now. Guess why all that happened? Ground war in Iraq, which was not part of PNAC's plan.

Perhaps you should read PNAC's "new Pearl Harbor" passage in context:

To preserve American military preeminence in the coming decades, the Department of Defense must move more aggressively to experiment with new technologies and operational concepts, and seek to exploit the emerging revolution in military affairs. Information technologies, in particular, are becoming more prevalent and significant components of modern military systems. These information technologies are having the same kind of transforming effects on military affairs as they are having in the larger world. The effects of this military transformation will have profound implications for how wars are fought, what kinds of weapons will dominate the battlefield and, inevitably, which nations enjoy military preeminence. The United States enjoys every prospect of leading this transformation. Indeed, it was the improvements in capabilities acquired during the American defense buildup of the 1980s that hinted at and then confirmed, during Operation Desert Storm, that a revolution in military affairs was at hand. At the same time, the process of military transformation will present opportunities for America's adversaries to develop new capabilities that in turn will create new challenges for U.S. military preeminence.

Moreover, the Pentagon, constrained by limited budgets and pressing current missions, has seen funding for experimentation and transformation crowded out in recent years. Spending on military research and development has been reduced dramatically over the past decade. Indeed, during the mid-1980's, when the Defense Department was in the midst of the Reagan buildup which was primarily an effort to expand existing forces and field traditional weapons systems, research spending represented 20 percent of total Pentagon budgets. By contrast, today's research and development accounts total only 8 percent of defense spending. And even this reduced total is primarily for upgrades of current weapons. Without increased spending on basic research and development the United States will be unable to exploit the RMA and preserve its technological edge on future battlefields.

Any serious effort at transformation must occur within the larger framework of U.S. national security strategy, military missions and defense budgets. The United States cannot simply declare a "strategic pause" while experimenting with new technologies and operational concepts. Nor can it choose to pursue a transformation strategy that would decouple American and allied interests. A transformation strategy that solely pursued capabilities for projecting force from the United States, for example, and sacrificed forward basing and presence, would be at odds with larger American policy goals and would trouble American allies.

Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor. Domestic politics and industrial policy will shape the pace and content of transformation as much as the requirements of current missions. A decision to suspend or terminate aircraft carrier production, as recommended by this report and as justified by the clear direction of military technology, will cause great upheaval. Likewise, systems entering production today - the F-22 fighter, for example - will be in service inventories for decades to come. Wise management of this process will consist in large measure of figuring out the right moments to halt production of current-paradigm weapons and shift to radically new designs. The expense associated with some programs can make them roadblocks to the larger process of transformation - the Joint Strike Fighter program, at a total of approximately $200 billion, seems an unwise investment. Thus, this report advocates a two-stage process of change - transition and transformation - over the coming decades.
Here's the link to the whole report.

I see that our friend the JSF cropped up again at the end there. Remember, the one you couldn't find any information about because you forgot how to Google "JSF" and click on the first link that comes up? Note how the PNAC considered the JSF to be an unwise investment at $200 billion. As we've read in this thread, its projected cost is now $300 billion.

You see, mjd, plans for change can go awry even without the intervention of catastrophic events. With the intervention of catastrophic events, all bets are off. Such events do produce transformation, but not transformation that can be accurately predicted or relied upon. Strategists understand this. You don't. To you, the the gearbox and the monkey wrench that's thrown into it are equally desirable components of the machine.

Oook, oook.
 
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Except that none of the people who have benefitted had the capacity to covertly cause such events.

In your opinion. How do you KNOW the Catholic Church could not start WWII? Do you know how many employees they had scattered throughout Europe at the time? How do you KNOW the Swiss bankers couldn't have caused the Holocaust?

You believe it is reasonable to think that the US govt. could have caused 9/11 to happen without ANYONE finding out, despite the fact that they (according to you) published their intentions for everyone to see.

It is YOU who believe the US government had the capacity to make 9/11 happen. YOU need to convince US, not simply state that it is so and make snide comments about how stupid we are that we don't share your twisted worldview.

This has been addressed eariler, do keep up pelase.

If by "addressed" you mean "words were written about it", then yes, it has.
 
Lol'd at this:

Did Cheney just wake up one day between 1991 and 1997 and decide to be evil? Or was it a gradual change?

-Gumboot

Lol'd even harder at this:

As far as alienation goes... well, on the US side we have, effectively, UK, France, [Mobyseven: Did I miss something here, or what?]Germany, Oz, Canada (?), India, Pakistan, Japan, Brazil, S Korea, Turkey, Kazakhstan, Poland, Czech Rep, as well as Iraq and Afghanistan, and many others (incl Albania of course!). So theyre not doing too bad.

But I think the most loling I've done so far in this thread was at mjd's argument ad jective.
 
.The 2 are similar since they were mass terror attacks against the US that galvanised the public consciousness into approving drastic military action.
The only similarity is that both events featured surprise attacks upon the United States. The subsequent reactions, in both general terms and in specific detail, are not terribly similar.

Militarily, the PH attacks had a specific and rational purpose: To disable the US fleet and allow Japan to go ahead with their expansion plans in SE Asia. In fact, Japan intended to declare war BEFORE the attacks, it was only poor execution by their diplomats that prevented this from happening.
My understanding is that final diplomatic message the Japanese were going to deliver on that day did not formally declare war on the U.S. That is, it didn't say anything overt like, "...therefore, the Empire of Japan hereby declares war on the United States." Rather, the message was more vague and simply had Japan saying further negotiations with the United States were pointless and it was breaking off relations. This technically is not a formal declaration of war, though it practical terms, given the state of affairs between the two nations at the time, it was effectively one.

Yes, but it was an unprovoked act of aggression in a state of peace between 2 nations.
Unprovoked? That's not necessarily the case, depending on how you define unprovoked.

Due to Japan's invasion of China, the U.S. had placed embargoes on the export of vital raw resources that Japan desperately needed. The U.S. did not intend to remove those trade restrictions until Japan withdrew from China. The militarists in charge of Japan were not about to withdraw from China, and knew there was little chance of a negotiated settlement given the U.S. position. Since Japan needed those raw resources, and couldn't get them from the U.S., they were going to have to be taken from other countries via military means. That meant war, and a first-strike against the U.S. was the only way it was going to buy the time it needed to grab the necessary territory and consolidate its gains.

So, from the Japanese point of view, you could say the U.S. provoked the attack due to its trade embargoes and its insistence on a Japanese military withdrawal from China.

From the American perspective, it was unprovoked since the two nations were still negotiating and the U.S. was still prepared to try and find a diplomatic solution to the impasse (though pessimistic about the chances).
 


Perhaps you should read PNAC's "new Pearl Harbor" passage in context:



Actually, reading that passage again, it kinda sounds as if they don't want a new Pearl Harbour, doesn't it?

The paragraphs you quoted there, Mark, seem to be pushing for firm but controlled increases in military spending, and there is the suggestion in that "new Pearl Harbour" adjunct that rapid and sudden upheaval is exactly what the PNAC don't want! I mean, the sentence "Wise management of this process will consist in large measure of figuring out the right moments to halt production of current-paradigm weapons and shift to radically new designs", for one, seems to be asserting the opposite to what my poor unesteemed countryman is trying to claim it is!

But that's by the by. As I said aout 5 pages ago, I'm bored of PNAC. I wan't to get to the good parts. What happened when Bush, Cheney and Wolfowitz sat down and agreed that staging a massivey elaborate false-flag attack was the best way to fulfil their nefarious goals? What happened next?
 
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Right, well 1stly your last paragraph does nothing to illustrate that they are wrong in stating that the comm didnt answer their questions when they say they addressed them. You would still have to illustrate that.


It illustrates that the Jersey Girls are irrational. Irrational people cannot be trusted to accurately recount information.



Secondly, the goalposts have been moved, but not by me.


Nonsense. You presented a scenario in which two answers were given, claiming one was not an answer. I pointed out that both were answers. You then altered one of the answers and claimed it was therefore not an answer. This is called moving the goalposts.





The original point was "how many questions of the 167 did the Comm answer". I said 27. Gravy said, no, that's what Willie Rodriguez said, and its false, later going on to claim that the Jersey Girls said 95 were answered. However, the JG's state quite clearly that ~27 were answered, ~68 were addressed, and ~72 were ignored. This is what they said.


Actually the Family Steering Committee (read: Not just the Jersey Girls) said 28 were answered satisfactorily, 68 were unsatisfactorily addressed, and 72 were not addressed.

In the above context, "address" and "answer" are interchangeable, hence the "satisfactory" and "unsatisfactory" qualifiers. I suspect the use of the word "addressed" was done to try and support the unsubstantiated Family Steering Committee assertion that their questions were not answered fully. Incidentally, I happen to have read their questions (other groups cite 400 questions that were not answered) and every single one of them either A) Was answered or B) Is a stupid question not deserving of an answer.

-Gumboot
 
Natural gas, excuse me.



Afghanistan has neither Natural Gas nor Oil. In fact Afghanistan has nothing to offer the civilised world whatsoever.

I'll grant CTers this much. Had the USA immediately invaded Iraq post-9/11, I would be inclined to accept that perhaps the US government had a hand in the attacks.

But they didn't. They invaded Afghanistan first. Why? There's absolutely no reason whatsoever why any nation in its right might would ever want to invade Afghanistan. It offers nothing.

Unless it happens to be housing a terrorist network that just attacked you.

The USA invaded Afghanistan to take out Al Qaeda, and that's it. They did so solely because of 9/11.

The comparisons between the US military commitment to Afghanistan and Iraq clearly shows that the Administration considered Afghanistan nothing more than a hindrance - an operation delaying their action in Iraq. Thus going into Afghanistan was not part of their plan - in fact it got in the way of their plan. Thus the event that caused US action in Afghanistan - 9/11 - was not the government's doing.

My theory: the US were going to invade Iraq, pushing the WMD threat. 9/11 came along and totally fouled up the admin's plans. They knew they HAD to respond to 9/11. The admin offered up a half-hearted operation in Afghanistan. After satisfying the public that they were doing something they all but abandoned the efforts to shut down Al Qaeda and continued with their pre-9/11 agenda to invade Iraq.

I think in all probability this is what happened. I think the US admin made an attempt to use 9/11 for their agenda, but I think in actual fact 9/11 hindered the execution of their agenda.

-Gumboot
 
You asked if the poll was taken at a time of bad PR for Bush. I showed you that it was taken at a time of record bad PR. You're welcome to commission another poll to ask if those historic low ratings are due to people's belief that 9/11 was an inside job. I'll wager lots of money on the results if you're game.

Again- learn the difference between cause and effect. One of the reasons why Bush is unpopular is because many people have suspicions of his role in 9/11. This is illustrated by polls I have given you. If you want to therorise that people don't like him for other reasons, therefore they have suspicions that he was involved in 9/11, then I will await your evidence for such.

Serves me right for using twoofer numbers. Yes, the Commission answered 96 of the questions.

False. Here are the 3 categories that the Family Steering Committee used:

96 questions fall into categories 1 and 2, according to the Steering Committee. Note the use of "satisfactorily" in category 1 and "adequately" in category 2. If you want to claim that the Commission had a mandate to answer every question to everyone's satisfaction, you'll be wrong. I suggest that you review the Steering Committee's list of questions and demands again.

Ok... fine. Let's settle on this- the Commission answered 28 questions satisfactorily, 68 unsatisfactorily, and ignored 71. Now what was the point again? The comprehensive nature of the report. You were trying to argue that it was comprehensive based partly on the assertion that they had answered 96 questions raised by the Steering Committee. This is of course a distortion, since the overwhelming majority of that number were answered insatisfactorily. So we are back where we started.

I do not state that there was a mandate to answer all their questions, but it offers a reasonable yardstick.

Now, if you want to argue that the Jersey Girls are irrational loons so their judgment is worthless, then you have some work to do. If not, we can conclude that on this basis, not to mention the others I cited, the report was highly incomplete and thus ineffective.
 
Hey MJD! Take note of the sentence from the PNAC - "Thus, this report advocates a two-stage process of change - transition and transformation - over the coming decades."

Transition, and transformation. That whole "Pearl Harbour" paragraph extolls the virtues of slow and managed change, and seems, to these eyes at least, to NOT want a new Pearl Harbour. It interferes with the entire scope of the project as laid out in that section of the document!
 
Again- learn the difference between cause and effect. One of the reasons why Bush is unpopular is because many people have suspicions of his role in 9/11.



By far and away, the reason for Bush's unpopularity is the Iraq War and Hurricane Katrina.

The vast overwhelming majority of Americans do not agree with those sad delusional fools who think the Bush administration was involved in 9/11. Accept it, and move on with your lives.

-Gumboot
 
Again- learn the difference between cause and effect. One of the reasons why Bush is unpopular is because many people have suspicions of his role in 9/11. This is illustrated by polls I have given you. If you want to therorise that people don't like him for other reasons, therefore they have suspicions that he was involved in 9/11, then I will await your evidence for such.



Ok... fine. Let's settle on this- the Commission answered 28 questions satisfactorily, 68 unsatisfactorily, and ignored 71. Now what was the point again? The comprehensive nature of the report. You were trying to argue that it was comprehensive based partly on the assertion that they had answered 96 questions raised by the Steering Committee. This is of course a distortion, since the overwhelming majority of that number were answered insatisfactorily. So we are back where we started.

I do not state that there was a mandate to answer all their questions, but it offers a reasonable yardstick.

Now, if you want to argue that the Jersey Girls are irrational loons so their judgment is worthless, then you have some work to do. If not, we can conclude that on this basis, not to mention the others I cited, the report was highly incomplete and thus ineffective.
It would be interesting to see a list of the questions. I can't seem to find it. Any links?
 
Oh come now. Our evaluation of the political import of a 76-page document is now to be based on the "find" feature? Do you really think using the word "radical" to describe a technological change in weapons design or tactics training equates to a "radical" political agenda that would require a Pearl Harbor event to achieve?

Your point which i addressed here, if you remember, was not about whether the agenda was radical, but whether the transformations envisaged were. I illustrated they were by pointing to PNAC's description of them as such. Simple.

Sure, I can see how the debate would have gone, if not for 9/11...

[voice=AndyRooney]Do you ever wonder why our military is always trying to 'radically redesign' its weapon systems? When I was growing up we were all perfectly satisfied with an ordinary future CVX carrier design. But now, get this, they want a 'new' future CVX carrier design. That's right, they want to give our old familiar future CVX carrier a 'radical design change.' But why? What was so bad about the old future CVX carrier design anyhow? It's not like anyone has recently crashed large passenger jetliners into large skyscrapers or anything. I say, let's tell the military that if a regular old future CVX carrier design was good enough for last year, it's good enough for this year.[/voice]

Militarization of space would never have been done without 9/11? Then why did it start in the 50s, and what was all that Star Wars research all about in the 80s? What's so radical about wanting to defend the infrastructure on which you've come to depend, such as information systems and satellites, from possible attack? Or about seeing the other guy's corresponding infrastructure as a potential target? Civil War generals were doing it with railroads. Ancient Greek generals were probably doing it with signal towers.

I said this before, it's not so much about what, as it is about emphasis and specificity. Yes there was a space program before, there were modernisations going on before, there was emphasis on controlf of straegic resources before. The point of PNAC is that there needs to now be a huge emphasis on such factors, to create the platform for hegemony. If you look up the docs that I cited in my riposte to the LC critique, you will see this made very clear, done in the light of the WOT/911

Moving forces around isn't radical, no matter where/how many are repositioned. It might seem so if you're accustomed only to the situation during decades of Cold War stalemate, but it's business as usual for U.S. military history. "From the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli..."

As above. No one is saying this. It is the nature of the redployment, the emphasis placed on it, and the funds put behind it.

Again, I'm having trouble imagining the debate on this being very contentious had 9/11 not happened. "What? You want to add more bases in southeast Asia? Preposterous! It'll never happen. Since no Saudi terrorists have crashed any hijacked airliners into New York City skyscrapers yet, I can't imagine the House Armed Services Committee or the Joint Chiefs approving such a plan."

But again, this has been addressed. Please refer to the docs I have cited, and think about the nature of emphasis and resources.

The more I look at this notion of RAD pre-justifying 9/11, the sillier it appears. How about we go with HeyLeroy's plan, pretend you've made some sort of point here about PNAC, and move on.

Respectfully,
Myriad

And finally, this doesnt change the point that in PNAC's opinion, such a transformation will be long (which also serves to prove that the changes envisgaed are not so simple), absent a catastrophic and catalysing event. So although you feel the changes to be banal, they dont, and they are aware of what would need to take place for the changes to happen over short time.
 
And finally, this doesnt change the point that in PNAC's opinion, such a transformation will be long (which also serves to prove that the changes envisgaed are not so simple), absent a catastrophic and catalysing event. So although you feel the changes to be banal, they dont, and they are aware of what would need to take place for the changes to happen over short time.

This is the key part. Read that section of the document, the very section you've dissected over an over again, and you'll see that they don't want a catastrophic event. Rapid change is bad change, according to the authors. A "new Pearl Harbour" would be catastrophic to the Project for a New American Century. It makes no sense that they'd deliberately orchestrate one, nor be "complict", in your words, to one.

Still, I don't care, because even if 911 was politically expedient, it doesn't mean the government of the USA made it happen. But, let's agree to disagree on that. Say that they had a meeting, whereupon it was decided to expediate the Project by creating a catastrophic event. TELL US WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.
 
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No it isn't.
The PNAC document contains recommendations for effecting a military transformation over many years. It is an outline of a plan. That plan does not include reliance on a "catastrophic and catalyzing" event to effect the change. As any strategist knows, when catastrophic events happen, the best-laid plans can go out the window. Just ask the neo-cons how their Bush administration plans have worked out, how the administration's popularity has been affected, how the last national elections went, and who controls Congress now. Guess why all that happened? Ground war in Iraq, which was not part of PNAC's plan.

Perhaps you should read PNAC's "new Pearl Harbor" passage in context:


I think it would be best if you read my posts before you respond to them. I have nowhere stated that PNAC where relying on a catastrophic and catalysing event; so why do you impute this to me? Is it deceit or ineptness; it must be one or the other.

This has been stated probably a dozen times by me here, including in the recent recap post- the point is, for now, whether PNAC felt such an event would be propitious to policy. This will give us a good avenue, and framework to proceed.

Please refer to my post ~419 , where this is all laid out. Kindly refer to it if you are going to respond to my point on this; my argument on it is well condensed there.

Incidentally, I have also responded to the PNAC section of your LC critique, perhaps you should read that again.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84473&page=3

I see that our friend the JSF cropped up again at the end there. Remember, the one you couldn't find any information about because you forgot how to Google "JSF" and click on the first link that comes up? Note how the PNAC considered the JSF to be an unwise investment at $200 billion. As we've read in this thread, its projected cost is now $300 billion.

You see, mjd, plans for change can go awry even without the intervention of catastrophic events. With the intervention of catastrophic events, all bets are off. Such events do produce transformation, but not transformation that can be accurately predicted or relied upon. Strategists understand this. You don't. To you, the the gearbox and the monkey wrench that's thrown into it are equally desirable components of the machine.

Oook, oook.

Oook indeed. I have referred to this point countless times here, please do keep up it will save us all a lot of time. There is a difference between execution and design. You might wanna think about that. The point here is not one of PNAC's execution, but their design. If their design was that a new PH would be useful for policy, then we have a useful framework to proceed.
 
The only similarity is that both events featured surprise attacks upon the United States. The subsequent reactions, in both general terms and in specific detail, are not terribly similar.

My understanding is that final diplomatic message the Japanese were going to deliver on that day did not formally declare war on the U.S. That is, it didn't say anything overt like, "...therefore, the Empire of Japan hereby declares war on the United States." Rather, the message was more vague and simply had Japan saying further negotiations with the United States were pointless and it was breaking off relations. This technically is not a formal declaration of war, though it practical terms, given the state of affairs between the two nations at the time, it was effectively one.

Unprovoked? That's not necessarily the case, depending on how you define unprovoked.

Due to Japan's invasion of China, the U.S. had placed embargoes on the export of vital raw resources that Japan desperately needed. The U.S. did not intend to remove those trade restrictions until Japan withdrew from China. The militarists in charge of Japan were not about to withdraw from China, and knew there was little chance of a negotiated settlement given the U.S. position. Since Japan needed those raw resources, and couldn't get them from the U.S., they were going to have to be taken from other countries via military means. That meant war, and a first-strike against the U.S. was the only way it was going to buy the time it needed to grab the necessary territory and consolidate its gains.

So, from the Japanese point of view, you could say the U.S. provoked the attack due to its trade embargoes and its insistence on a Japanese military withdrawal from China.

From the American perspective, it was unprovoked since the two nations were still negotiating and the U.S. was still prepared to try and find a diplomatic solution to the impasse (though pessimistic about the chances).
Please refer to post #416, where this has been dealt with
 
Afghanistan has neither Natural Gas nor Oil. In fact Afghanistan has nothing to offer the civilised world whatsoever.

I'll grant CTers this much. Had the USA immediately invaded Iraq post-9/11, I would be inclined to accept that perhaps the US government had a hand in the attacks.

But they didn't. They invaded Afghanistan first. Why? There's absolutely no reason whatsoever why any nation in its right might would ever want to invade Afghanistan. It offers nothing.

Unless it happens to be housing a terrorist network that just attacked you.

The USA invaded Afghanistan to take out Al Qaeda, and that's it. They did so solely because of 9/11.

The comparisons between the US military commitment to Afghanistan and Iraq clearly shows that the Administration considered Afghanistan nothing more than a hindrance - an operation delaying their action in Iraq. Thus going into Afghanistan was not part of their plan - in fact it got in the way of their plan. Thus the event that caused US action in Afghanistan - 9/11 - was not the government's doing.

My theory: the US were going to invade Iraq, pushing the WMD threat. 9/11 came along and totally fouled up the admin's plans. They knew they HAD to respond to 9/11. The admin offered up a half-hearted operation in Afghanistan. After satisfying the public that they were doing something they all but abandoned the efforts to shut down Al Qaeda and continued with their pre-9/11 agenda to invade Iraq.

I think in all probability this is what happened. I think the US admin made an attempt to use 9/11 for their agenda, but I think in actual fact 9/11 hindered the execution of their agenda.

-Gumboot
I suggest you read up on the CENTGAS project. This is pretty basic.

ETA- This might help http://archive.democrats.com/view.cfm?id=5166
 
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I see that our friend the JSF cropped up again at the end there. Remember, the one you couldn't find any information about because you forgot how to Google "JSF" and click on the first link that comes up?

Actually, you made it one click too hard, Gravy. All he has to do is click on the "I'm feeling lucky" button.
 
I'm sorry I spoke too soon. Do you have a list of the ignored/ unsatisfactorily. This would be important to put this issue to bed.
 

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