• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Skeptisism vs Cynicism on 911

No, that doesn't clarify it. In your OP you said that a conspiracy theory should be given a chance until it's disproven. Here you seem to be agreeing with me that it's the job of the conspiracists to prove their theories, not ours to disprove them. Can you clearly state which you believe?
Did you know from day one that it was all bunk? Or did you check the facts and came to a conclusion. I suspect the latter...
Basically you looked and listened first, right?
You made your judgement later.
How is that different from what I and many others have done or profess?
I don't see what the confusion is about... Sorry

SYL :)
 
Wow,
I see you have an opinion, well founded, very clear. Now write it down...
If there is some pledge of alegiance you want me to take, then I'll will state what I have stated elsewhere. I think there are no unexplained questions left.
I also believe many other people don't think so. Now it's clear you have a very well described position on this. All I would like is that you write it down comprehensively in a post 400-1000 words long, civil and able to stand on its own. Can you do that?

SYL :)
I'm sorry you couldn't answer that simple question. I hadn't even assigned you a minimum word count.
 
why don't you do it yourself? why should he spend time and effort to try and disprove your delusions when you won't even make the smallest effort to prove it yourself...

If you put some energy into your delusion, i'm sure gravy will put energy into showing you why it is wrong.. but.. you don't, so no one intends to put the effort in.


On another note.. could you please write a post 400-1000 words long, civil and able to stand on its own, proving to me that there isn't an invisible pink unicorn under my bed?
I wrote my opinion in the OP 400 words, civil, standing on it's own.
Please do the same. I like to read it... seriously, no catch.

SYL :)
 
Wow,
I see you have an opinion, well founded, very clear. Now write it down...
If there is some pledge of alegiance you want me to take, then I'll will state what I have stated elsewhere. I think there are no unexplained questions left.
I also believe many other people don't think so. Now it's clear you have a very well described position on this. All I would like is that you write it down comprehensively in a post 400-1000 words long, civil and able to stand on its own. Can you do that?

SYL :)
(bolding mine)

I just did a word count in my TLA-nominated post called Hooftie The Buckling and it's 722. Critics and Albanian milkmen agree that no conspiracy theory can stand against it, regardless of discipline or issue.

I hate to be repetitious and I already achieved the height of heights with the aforementioned Hooftie. Hooftie even uttered "Oook" just before he crossed over, so that's covered too.
 
I wrote my opinion in the OP 400 words, civil, standing on it's own.
Please do the same. I like to read it... seriously, no catch.

SYL :)

it doesn't stand on its own as it has nothing of value in it...


but if you want me to write 400-1000 words that don't actually say anything of substance.. why not...
 
Sorry this is going more rapidly then I can keep up with:

This is an answer to Gravy

I think the answer was clear from my OP.
Is it that unclear?
I belief the answer to what I believ is that there are no unexplained questions left. But does that mean the future is fixed? No.
I will look at everything at least once, then start to make up my mind

SYL :)
 
Last edited:
you call that an answer???

No where in there do you state one way or the other if the burden of proof is on the 9/11 deniers...

i'm going to sleep.
 
Fifth time: is the burden of proof for a conspiracy theory on the theorists or is it my job to disprove a theory?
 
The confusion is about the burden of proof. I say its on the conspiracists. You seem unwilling to make a commitment about that.

Still suspicious, I see. The burden of proof is on the conspiracists, does that make you want to write your essay.
I have an opinion too Gravy, not necessarily completely the same as yours. can you accept that? I'm a scientist and as such, I will look at a hypothesis. That does not mean I will agree with it. But I will look at it and give it a chance. If it fails, I reject it.

The next question whether I think they have something to look at, well I think I have answered that. The question is what is new.

Now how about writting your post.

SYL :)
 
Putting it simply, I openly investigate any new 9/11 Conspiracy claim I come across. Thus far, all new claims have failed under the most cursory of examinations.

The vast majority of 9/11 Conspiracy Arguments I come across are not new at all. They are old; very old. I have already investigated them. I will not consider anew the possibility that a 757 did not hit The Pentagon for the 325th time. It was wrong the first time, and it's still wrong now.

The phenomenon you are describing is more, I believe, a reflection of the "repeat old claims ad nauseum" behavior of the truth movement, not a reflection of cynicism from skeptics.

-Gumboot
 
As I said, luck has nothing to do with it.

Do you agree that the burden of proof of conspiracy theories is on the theorists and not on other people?

The obvious question is how many chances we should give to a conspiracy theory. Based on the definitions presented above, I would say at least one until it has been disproven beyond any doubt… regardless of the person presenting it.

It looks to me like that ought to answer your question, Gravy. Unless my ability to read English has mysteriously disappeared, SYLVESTER1592 is saying that anyone who doesn't accept a conspiracy theory is obligated to disprove it- and beyond any doubt at that- or else to accord it equal status with all other candidate explanations for the event in question, irrespective of the weight of available evidence.

I wonder how s/he would set the standard for the common case of a CT buff throwing down a load of old, familiar, already-examined-and-found-wanting claims and demanding "prove me wrong"? I'm curious- the cost of feeding the invisible pink unicorn in my kitchen is getting tiresome... ;)
 
Last edited:
Sorry this is going more rapidly then I can keep up with:

This is an answer to Gravy

I think the answer was clear from my OP.
Is it that unclear?
I belief the answer to what I believ is that there are no unexplained questions left. But does that mean the future is fixed? No.
I will look at everything at least once, then start to make up my mind

SYL :)

I understand your point of view, and that your just trying to be objective and free of bias.

However, if i say "The Earth is really cube shaped" - there should be no expectation for you to take me seriously or even consider my deluded outlook unless i provide real evidence of this claim. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Also, if after my cube theory is debunked and then i say "Aliens live in the core of the earth" - should you be expected to take me seriously, especially after my last claim was wrong?

You have to draw a line somewhere. If real evidence is submitted: it will be tested truly and fairly. Until that, there is no reason for anyone here to write an essay on why Aliens dont live in the core of the earth.
 
Last edited:
Fifth time: is the burden of proof for a conspiracy theory on the theorists or is it my job to disprove a theory?
You have to give me some time to reply Gravy
It's just me answering everybody.
I think I have answered you in the previous post
I'm not trying to ignore you, I think that's clear.

SYL :)
 
Putting it simply, I openly investigate any new 9/11 Conspiracy claim I come across. Thus far, all new claims have failed under the most cursory of examinations.

The vast majority of 9/11 Conspiracy Arguments I come across are not new at all. They are old; very old. I have already investigated them. I will not consider anew the possibility that a 757 did not hit The Pentagon for the 325th time. It was wrong the first time, and it's still wrong now.

The phenomenon you are describing is more, I believe, a reflection of the "repeat old claims ad nauseum" behavior of the truth movement, not a reflection of cynicism from skeptics.

-Gumboot
OK, I'll accept that. Write the post. I have seen your work and know you can.
Come on Gumboot, help me out here.

SYL :)
 
Still suspicious, I see. The burden of proof is on the conspiracists,
THANK YOU. I'm not a dentist, you know. Perhaps you should amend your OP, since it seems to say the opposite.

does that make you want to write your essay.
No, I stopped taking essay assignments with word counts in high school.

I have an opinion too Gravy, not necessarily completely the same as yours. can you accept that?
Sure. I have no idea what opinion you're talking about, but you're welcome to it.

Now how about writting your post.
All done, teach.
 
Here's my two cent's worth:

...1) Has skepticism about the conspiracy theories reached the level of cynicism?

I don't think so. However, you may have a stronger point if you're referring to skepticism about conspiracy theorists. When I see a new one posting here, I have to fight off the impulse to automatically think, "Here we go again." Not that it's an entirely unfounded impulse -- after all, just how many times have we seen CTers come here and do one of the following: (1) come out with both guns blasting, all conjecture and insults, or (2) start off with some "I'm a skeptic, I'm just asking questions" ruse, which quickly morphs into full frontal denier mode as soon as the poster is challenged. The one thing both approaches have in common is an utter disregard for actual dialogue; the goal apparently is for us to listen and agree, nothing else. See this enough times, and it's virtually inevitable to conclude all 9/11 CTers are like this, so the next new one gets painted with the same old brush. That's cynicism of a sort I suppose, but it may be arguably justified.

2) To what extent are we still skeptics and where do we start becoming missionaries for what we perceive to be true?

"Missionaries" is sort of a loaded word in a skeptic forum. I think we're missionaries when we're so invested in our views, we're no longer open to logical, verifiable information. I for one believe few if anyone here has reached that point. Show us some actual, solid evidence that the CTers are right, and I believe most here would seriously consider it. The thing is, the CTers don't have any -- real evidence that is. All they present is the same tired, old speculation, misinformation, misinterpretation, errors, and plain old lies that have been debunked 1000 times over. We have every right to continue to reject this stuff until something new and far more solid comes along, something that can stand up to scrutiny. Hasn't happened yet, not by a long shot.

...For reference of the definitions:
The dictionary:
Cynical
Cynic
Skeptical
Skeptic

Thanks, I think I get it.


...Now, which one do you feel applies? I think after 6 years, everyone already made up his/her mind in many cases, based on previous experience, background knowledge, personal reasons and scientific review. Some of the conclusions are detailed and well founded some are based on a general perception and everything in between. I agree that it may be very frustrating to hear twoofers speak, but we give them a chance anyway. That is amendable but to what extent are we still skeptics and where do we start becoming missionaries for what we perceive to be true.

I think I already answered this above.

...The obvious question is how many chances we should give to a conspiracy theory. Based on the definitions presented above, I would say at least one until it has been disproven beyond any doubt… regardless of the person presenting it.

This is where we seriously diverge. We are under zero obligation to give any idea a chance until it has been disproved beyond any doubt. In fact, the exact opposite is true. As skeptics -- indeed, as rational thinkers, however we may refer to ourselves -- it is our duty not to give any theory any consideration whatsoever until and unless there is a reason to believe it may be true. Simply because a theory hasn't been disproved "beyond any doubt" is absolutely no justification to give it even a second's worth of attention. There are literally an infinite number of ideas that haven't been disproven beyond any doubt. Theories that have actual facts to back them up, now that's a much rarer and more valuable commodity. As others have pointed out -- innumerable times -- the burden of proof rests with the theorist, not with the debunker. Failure to understand this simple but critical concept is probably the ultimate reason CT theories exist at all.

...True skeptics are in some way, to some level, really fence sitters in my opinion, as opposed to a true cynic.

I'm not sure I agree. There's nothing wrong in believing one thing is true and another untrue, if there's evidence to back that up. An open mind is not a sieve; thoughts and beliefs are allowed to stay in once in a while.

...I am looking for well written civil responses only (400-1000 words) that can stand on their own without direct reference to the OP or other posts.

Well, I hope I've given you civil, anyway.
 
Last edited:
OK, I'll accept that. Write the post. I have seen your work and know you can.
Come on Gumboot, help me out here.

SYL :)
Yes, Gumboot, now that you've expressed your views, say the same thing with many more words. I know you can. Remember when we used to call you "Ol' boilerplate"?
 
Like I said no personal attacks, I´m not looking for the animated debate. If this is your point. Write it down in the post, follow the rules and convince us in your own words of the validity of the argument either for skeptisism or cynisism.
Thank you

SYL :)

(Sorry forgot the qoute again, going too fast. This one is for ktesibios)
 

Back
Top Bottom