[Moderated]175 did NOT hit the South tower.

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From the content of your previous posts, not in the slightest.


Please--just stop! TRY to comprehend what the other person is saying.

I just asked you if you understood that arguing about aircraft components with an avionics tech makes you look ridiculous. You, manifestly, know absolutely nothing about the subject, which happens to be his area of expertise.

You respond with a mindlessly snide comment about MY posts. I am not the avionics tech. Please reread that last sentence and repeat it out loud.

Incidentally, we have all noted your refusal to respond to my posts. You have been caught telling falsehoods about nonexistent armored planes and imaginary super-villains. Are you planning to acknowledge your errors?
 
1. Show me ONE.
2. Show me the passenger list.
3. These tapes must have dodged getting collected up, broken up and dumped in the trash.
4. As 3.
5. If I paid out money for a staged crash site and got Shanksville, I would want my money back. You cannot be serious.
6. In what regard are these sites incorrect?
7. ! - 5 are not evidence because all you have is words. Where are the photos of 175 in UA livery? where is this DNA list? Where is even a list of passengers?


You want MORE photos of one of the most-photographed events in history!? How many videos of Flight 175 do you require?

Will you ever attempt to read the material people here link to?

http://911myths.com/html/no_hijackers_on_the_manifests.html
 
Thank you for that.
What would happen, if you secured a 1 ft x 1 ft x 30 ft concrete only beam at one end and then pushed it out horizontally into fresh air for 15 feet?


I'm a sophomore in mechanical engineering, and we don't do much with concrete (though I do a bit in my job--I work for a civil engineer), but I'll give it a go. What would happen would again depend on the concrete.

We'll assume medium concrete, which has a density of approximately 145 lbs/ft3. So we have 15X145 = 2175, or about 2200 lbs. of concrete hanging over the edge. We need to calculate the torques acting about the axis defined by the line where the beam meets the edge of the building. Because the beam is uniform, we may assume that the entire weight acts at a distance of 7.5 feet from the center, which gives 7.5 * 2200 = 16,500 pound-feet of torque on the center of the beam. Because the beam should be in equilibrium if it's not breaking, this torque must be balanced by at least one equal and opposite torque acting normal (perpendicular) to any plane we can pass through our axis.

The plane that would result in the greatest stress (force/area, the same as pressure) required to counteract the torque from the weight is the one that passes horizontally through the axis, as the cross-section of the beam will have the least surface area, and its center will be clostest to the axis. In other words, if the beam fails, it will break along a plane that coincides with the edge of the building. The torque on this plane must also equal 16,500 lb-ft., in the opposite direction. The center of the cross-section is 1/2 foot above the axis; dividing 16,500 lb-ft by 0.5 ft gives 33,000 pounds-force acting on the cross-section to place the beam in tension. The cross-sectional area of the beam is 12x12 = 144 in2. Dividing 33,000 lbs by 144 in2 gives about 230 lb/in2 (psi). Freshly hardened medium concrete of the type used in the WTC would have a tensile strength of around 275 psi. So assuming no other loads (such as wind) on it, the beam will probably not crack, but I wouldn't want to stand underneath it. :eye-poppi

Anyone who knows more about concrete than I please feel free to comment.
 
I'm a sophomore in mechanical engineering, and we don't do much with concrete (though I do a bit in my job--I work for a civil engineer), but I'll give it a go. What would happen would again depend on the concrete.

We'll assume medium concrete, which has a density of approximately 145 lbs/ft3. So we have 15X145 = 2175, or about 2200 lbs. of concrete hanging over the edge. We need to calculate the torques acting about the axis defined by the line where the beam meets the edge of the building. Because the beam is uniform, we may assume that the entire weight acts at a distance of 7.5 feet from the center, which gives 7.5 * 2200 = 16,500 pound-feet of torque on the center of the beam. Because the beam should be in equilibrium if it's not breaking, this torque must be balanced by at least one equal and opposite torque acting normal (perpendicular) to any plane we can pass through our axis.

The plane that would result in the greatest stress (force/area, the same as pressure) required to counteract the torque from the weight is the one that passes horizontally through the axis, as the cross-section of the beam will have the least surface area, and its center will be clostest to the axis. In other words, if the beam fails, it will break along a plane that coincides with the edge of the building. The torque on this plane must also equal 16,500 lb-ft., in the opposite direction. The center of the cross-section is 1/2 foot above the axis; dividing 16,500 lb-ft by 0.5 ft gives 33,000 pounds-force acting on the cross-section to place the beam in tension. The cross-sectional area of the beam is 12x12 = 144 in2. Dividing 33,000 lbs by 144 in2 gives about 230 lb/in2 (psi). Freshly hardened medium concrete of the type used in the WTC would have a tensile strength of around 275 psi. So assuming no other loads (such as wind) on it, the beam will probably not crack, but I wouldn't want to stand underneath it. :eye-poppi

Anyone who knows more about concrete than I please feel free to comment.

Maximum stress is M*C/I at the outer fiber. In this case, the bending occurs at the bottom face, not about the middle (the bottom is where the support is), so maximum stress is about 343psi.
Don't stand under it...
 
Would you kindly peruse the photos on this website and give me your opinion on two things,
1. The end of the shaft, which is the topmost piece in the wreck photo and
2. The tyre.
Thanking you in advance,
http://www.rense.com/general63/hiding.htm

Well Rense.com once again shows they are terrible at research. They compare a pic of the Murray St fragment to a pic of a CFM56 engine that looks nothing like it. Then they say that the landing gear assembly in this picture looks like that of a 737 and then they link to a website that shows 737 landing gear assemblies that look nothing like it, like here.
 
Show me one piece of evidence that 175 did hit the south tower.
I have shown you 50 websites in one post. Each site contains evidence that 175 did NOT hit the south tower.

No, you have not. You have shown us distorted facts and opinions about 9/11. You have shown that you cannot be bothered to research these "facts" and "evidence". You just parrot what you find that you like.

The patrol dogs, the ones that can sniff out explosives, were pulled from work at the WTC in time rnough for explosives to be planted before 9/11.

Patently false for several reasons:

1- The dog units were not removed. They were restored to their normal level of alertness. There's that research I talked about.

2- One week-end is not enough to rig so big a building with demo charges. What part of this don't you understand.

There were 'power downs' in the week running up to 9/11, so no security cameras worked.

Again, false. Only a PART of ONE tower was powered down. And only for a short period.

Silverstein, and two of his family were all late for work on the morning of 9/11.

That's a coincidence, I guess. Can you support your assertion ?

Silverstein has admitted to 'pulling' WTC7.

No, he hasn't. Read the quote again.

Giuliani had the crime scene swept up.

How is that a coincidence ?

Giuliani knew the twins were gonna collapse before they did.

How do you know ?

The BBC knew WTC7 was down, before it fell.

Again, false.

You're not improving.
 
By your reasoning anybody who asserts 175 did not hit the south tower is insane.

Indeed.

1. Show me ONE.

You've never seen a video of 175 striking 2 WTC ????

3. These tapes must have dodged getting collected up, broken up and dumped in the trash.

What the hell is that supposed to mean ?

5. If I paid out money for a staged crash site and got Shanksville, I would want my money back. You cannot be serious.

Who the hell talked about staged ?

7. ! - 5 are not evidence because all you have is words.

In that case we're all even.
 
Well Rense.com once again shows they are terrible at research. They compare a pic of the Murray St fragment to a pic of a CFM56 engine that looks nothing like it. Then they say that the landing gear assembly in this picture looks like that of a 737 and then they link to a website that shows 737 landing gear assemblies that look nothing like it, like here.


What friggin' morons! Had they even bothered to look at a 767 tire, they might have noticed that it, too, would be a great match for the WTC tire as it also has four grooves. Even the 767 nose tire has four grooves. A perfect example of tw00fer research for ya; can you say confirmation bias?

Malcolm, do you see what's wrong here?
 
Maximum stress is M*C/I at the outer fiber. In this case, the bending occurs at the bottom face, not about the middle (the bottom is where the support is), so maximum stress is about 343psi.
Don't stand under it...

Can you elaborate on this? BTW, I know that it bends at the bottom--I was taking the average torque on the centroid of the cross-section about the axis where it would bend. That may not be the right way to do it, but that's what I was doing. I probably should have drawn and attached a diagram, but I was a bit pressed for time.
 
Can you elaborate on this? BTW, I know that it bends at the bottom--I was taking the average torque on the centroid of the cross-section about the axis where it would bend. That may not be the right way to do it, but that's what I was doing. I probably should have drawn and attached a diagram, but I was a bit pressed for time.

Bending about the neutral axis (centerline) would put the upper fibers in tension and the lower fibers in compression. In this particular instance, the support is a line support across the lower face of the beam, and the bending is about that line. There is no compression. It is all bending.
Were the beam simply supported at the ends, then max moment would be at the 1/2 way point between the supports, and bending would be at the neutral axis, and you would have been correct. Were the beam cantalevered (restrained at a 1'x1' cross-section through the beam), you would have also been correct, but it's not. So the distance from the bending axis to the fartherest fiber (C) is now 1 foot (12 inches), and the moment of inertia is (12^4)/3 in^4, instead of (12^4)/12 in^4.
Your logic was good, you just had the bending axis in the wrong place.
I'll try to work up a picture--I can't seem to find my $%#@ Cad package on this OS.
 
I'm a sophomore in mechanical engineering, and we don't do much with concrete (though I do a bit in my job--I work for a civil engineer), but I'll give it a go. What would happen would again depend on the concrete.

We'll assume medium concrete, which has a density of approximately 145 lbs/ft3. So we have 15X145 = 2175, or about 2200 lbs. of concrete hanging over the edge. We need to calculate the torques acting about the axis defined by the line where the beam meets the edge of the building. Because the beam is uniform, we may assume that the entire weight acts at a distance of 7.5 feet from the center, which gives 7.5 * 2200 = 16,500 pound-feet of torque on the center of the beam. Because the beam should be in equilibrium if it's not breaking, this torque must be balanced by at least one equal and opposite torque acting normal (perpendicular) to any plane we can pass through our axis.

The plane that would result in the greatest stress (force/area, the same as pressure) required to counteract the torque from the weight is the one that passes horizontally through the axis, as the cross-section of the beam will have the least surface area, and its center will be clostest to the axis. In other words, if the beam fails, it will break along a plane that coincides with the edge of the building. The torque on this plane must also equal 16,500 lb-ft., in the opposite direction. The center of the cross-section is 1/2 foot above the axis; dividing 16,500 lb-ft by 0.5 ft gives 33,000 pounds-force acting on the cross-section to place the beam in tension. The cross-sectional area of the beam is 12x12 = 144 in2. Dividing 33,000 lbs by 144 in2 gives about 230 lb/in2 (psi). Freshly hardened medium concrete of the type used in the WTC would have a tensile strength of around 275 psi. So assuming no other loads (such as wind) on it, the beam will probably not crack, but I wouldn't want to stand underneath it. :eye-poppi

Anyone who knows more about concrete than I please feel free to comment.

It would snap off under the force of its own weight,
 
Well Rense.com once again shows they are terrible at research. They compare a pic of the Murray St fragment to a pic of a CFM56 engine that looks nothing like it. Then they say that the landing gear assembly in this picture looks like that of a 737 and then they link to a website that shows 737 landing gear assemblies that look nothing like it, like here.
Your conclusions are...?
 
Your conclusions are...?

My conclusion is that Rense.com, in trying to prove that the WTC landing gear debris is that of a 737, only prove that both have four grooves in the tires and through the links that they provide show that the assembly does not look like that of a 737. The links Apathoid provides show how the debris does look like that of 767.

It is hilarious that Rense.com so often unintentionally debunks their own ideas.
 
Please--just stop! TRY to comprehend what the other person is saying.

I just asked you if you understood that arguing about aircraft components with an avionics tech makes you look ridiculous. You, manifestly, know absolutely nothing about the subject, which happens to be his area of expertise.

You respond with a mindlessly snide comment about MY posts. I am not the avionics tech. Please reread that last sentence and repeat it out loud.

Incidentally, we have all noted your refusal to respond to my posts. You have been caught telling falsehoods about nonexistent armored planes and imaginary super-villains. Are you planning to acknowledge your errors?
You maintain that I refuse to respond to your posts, whilst at the same time quoting just such a response. Do you see any inconsistency in that?
Will you or whoever the expert is, tell me whose law this is?
This is not a 'trick' question. I ask it simply to establish the level of expertise I am conversing with. This is basic science and not something you can find the answer to on the net.
Kindly tell me whose law is represented by this equation,
extension in mm = constant
force in Newtons
 
What is your fascination with shooting cows? A shot cow would probably stumble a few feet and fall over given a good shot. Unless WTC7 managed to amble down Greenwich Street and collapse, it's a ridiculous analogy.

If instead I drop a burning moose onto a cow and the cow stays standing for 7 hours, while on fire without falling over, then you can compare cows to skyscrapers.

Further, until your expertise equals or exceeds that of the six engineering associations who independently investigated the collapse of WTC7, you lack the authority to claim much of anything. I suppose you could alternately join a farm union or slaughterhouse to bolster this incessant "shot cow" claim, but I think few here would take that as seriously.
If you visit an abattoir, you will see a cow led into a box. The slaughterman fires a bolt through the cow's forehead and the cow drops at free fall speed.
The floor of the box gives way. the carcass slides onto the floor, it is then hooked up to a conveyor, gutted and sawn in half, all in the same room.
I use the term because the cow drops at free fall speed.
If you jumped off the top of WTC7 at the same moment the penthouse 'crimped' you would hit the ground at the same time the penthouse did. You would clearly be falling at free fall speed. It follows that the penthouse was also falling at free fall speed. The snags with the penthouse dropping at free fall speed, are the thousands of tons of steel girders, beams and spars together with all those floors etc. There is no explanation for that, other than controlled demolition.
Any explanation other than controlled demolition stretches credulity beyond breaking point. WTC7 did indeed drop like a shot cow. Here it is,
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html
 
Each minimum installation would still have a footprint of many, many blocks, and a firing point (several, most likely) with a radius of 30ft or more (for safety) - they'd be very noticable. But thank you for accepting the point.



If you are referring to air superiority craft, such as fighters, I can't speak on behalf of the Air Force. I know that the limited contact we had with the AF often saw missions scrubbed or sent via surface roads, because aircraft fuel was too expensive to waste on training missions. I have no idea what they had available for actual wartime missions.

However, since the fastest attack craft would still take 10 minutes or more, after takeoff, to reach the point of contact and slow to dogfight speeds, they were also completely unprepared for aerial assault.



I was serving at Ft. Sill, OK, in the field artillery, when 9/11 happened. For many years, I took the official story quite for granted. But several months ago, I came across my first CT posts, and shortly thereafter, the Loose Change video. I was swayed, at first, by the apparently interesting arguments presented, and I spent a few days in chilly consideration of the possibility that there were truths in that video.

But then I did what I expect any rational adult would do - I started researching the material myself, as much as I was able. AND I refused to be attracted to websites of rhetoric, half-truths, ignorance, and lies. These were of no use.

I did spend hours in libraries, pouring over physics books and architectual books, anything that might help support or refute the claims of LC.

And the conclusions I came to were this: 19 Islamic terrorists managed to kidnap four passenger jumbo jets, smashing two into the WTC, causing its eventual collapse, one into the Pentagon, and one crashed into an empty field in Pennsylvania after the passengers bravely struggled against their enemies. WTC-7 collapse due to fire damage and impact damage from falling debris.

Also, that there was a possibility that bin Laden was a patsy of our own government - not that he was blamed falsely for planning these attacks, but that he might have been led into attacking us through deliberate manipulation.



There are apparently many things you have difficulty believing, which are nonetheless true.



Having lived on a ranch, I would agree with your assessment. Like a shot cow, the building suffered and 'bled' (the fires), sagged and swayed, and eventually slumped over, slightly sideways, when it could stand no more.

WTC7 dropped exactly how I would expect a building of its type to drop, after being heavily damaged by raging internal fires and after having parts of large buildings dropped on it from considerable height. It didn't fall quickly, except at the very end, but sagged and swayed as the damage increased. It didn't fall into its own footprint, unless perhaps the building's feet are considered to cross roads and meet other buildings.

Nothing about the actual events of that day are a mystery to me, any more. The events that LED to that day, however, are full of mysteries and possible conspiracies. I would have no trouble believing, for example, that the government (well, parts of it anyway) have been slowly forcing a situation by their actions in the Middle East, and deliberately NOT allowing the U.S. to prepare for it, in order to have an excuse to go to war. It's no secret that many government officials, being Christian fundamentalists of one vein or another, long for the holy war that willl crush Islam and prove the superiority of a Christian America once and for all - just as many Islamic officials long for the Jihad that will wipe the earth clean of the infidel.

But the events of 9/11? As far as I can tell, completely aboveboard.

Thank you for such a comprehensive response. My experience has been totally different. I started by surfing around and coming across a video of a woman who was asking for some 'suits'. Her name was Donna Marsh O'Connor,
here is that video,
http://www.911blogger.com/2005/09/4th-anniversary-donna-marsh-oconnor-at.html
She was genuinely upset as you can see. I wear a suit, so I thought I'd have a look for some easy form of recompense for her, some breach of health and safety regs etc. Also, I used to use the south tower for occassional shelter on cold winter lunchtimes, so I had a fondness for the south tower.
It didn't take me long to smell a rat and then go through the wave after wave of incredulity involved. I have long since been totally convinced, so much so that, after finding this site and the amount of opposition on here, I was falling down on the side of being amongst neocons/NWO whatever the term is.
I have been contemplating challenging someone to defend the NWO agenda.
We could then cut to the chase and I could counsel people against supporting what is really a return to the old times. Where people found themselves trapped on a ladder they could never climb.
I am intrigued as to how you have been able to overcome all the inconsistencies involved in 9/11.
Do you have any knowledge of previous 'inside jobs'. OKC for example, Operation Northwoods etc?
 
Do you have any knowledge of previous 'inside jobs'. OKC for example, Operation Northwoods etc?


You do realize that PKC was an "inside job" only in that an American citizen did it and that Operation Northwoods never happened?
 
malcolm Kirkman said:
She was genuinely upset as you can see. I wear a suit, so I thought I'd have a look for some easy form of recompense for her, some breach of health and safety regs etc.

I don't think this poor woman is looking for recompense, Malcom. What is in that video that makes you think she is seeking recompense?

It is most unfortunate that she has suffered further torment due to the lies of the Troof Movement. Lies perpetuated by people like you, Malcolm.
 
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