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Will Tax Protestor Standoff Lead To Another Ruby Ridge?

The Painter said:
This is the way of Thoreau or Gandhi. Civil disobedience.
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I thought the purpose of civil disobeidence was to protest unjust laws by accepting the punishment to show the injustice of the law, not the person.

I doubt Thoreau or Gandhi would support an armed seige.
 
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MaGZ said:
Famous government standoffs.

Waco Siege April 19, 1993
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege

MOVE group, May 13, 1985
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE

Robert Mathews founder of The Order, December 8, 1984
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Jay_Mathews

Symbionese Liberation Army, May 17, 1974
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbionese_Liberation_Army

All died in a fiery confrontation with the government.
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"Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword" -- Christ
 
Alt+F4 said:
I thought the purpose of civil disobeidence was to protest unjust laws by accepting the punishment to show the injustice of the law, not the person.

I doubt Thoreau or Gandhi would support an armed seige.
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shecky said:
I thought civil disobedience also meant accepting the penalties when caught?
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Yes and yes.

"We are a very reciprocal people. You do us good, we do you good. You do us bad, we're gonna do you bad. It's that simple."

--Ed Brown
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This has nothing to do with civil disobedience.

Civil disobedience encompasses the active refusal to obey certain laws, demands and commands of a government or of an occupying power without resorting to physical violence.

In seeking an active form of civil disobedience, one may choose to deliberately break certain laws, such as by forming a peaceful blockade or occupying a facility illegally. Protesters practice this non-violent form of civil disorder with the expectation that they will be arrested, or even attacked or beaten by the authorities.
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MaGZ said:
Remember those words when the next Mormon polygamous cult is burned out by the government.
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If they have armed themselves and refuse to obey the law then they will have to bear the responsibility of their actions. I don't have a problem with that. I'm not sure why you would think otherwise. BTW, it is my sincere desire that Warren Jeffs rot in jail for a long time.
 
RandFan said:
If they have armed themselves and refuse to obey the law then they will have to bear the responsibility of their actions. I don't have a problem with that. I'm not sure why you would think otherwise. BTW, it is my sincere desire that Warren Jeffs rot in jail for a long time.
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Wouldn’t be better if only the police and government officials had guns?
 
qayak said:
What about a person who was born into a system they had no say in and completely disagree with?
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  • Work to change the system.
  • Become an activist.
  • Protest.
  • Commit civil disobedience.
  • Move.
What about a sociopath who was born into a system that prohibited rape robbery and murder and they had no say in the laws of that system?

Due to the fact that humans are diverse and given that their goals, needs and wants will very often be in conflict then civilization can never be perfectly fair. For humans, utopia is a logical impossibility. At best we can strive for an ideal but we will always fall short.
 
MaGZ said:
Wouldn’t be better if only the police and government officials had guns?
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That's another thread. I don't think so but there are a lot of arguments and posters in this forum to suppose so.
 
qayak said:
What about a person who was born into a system they had no say in and completely disagree with?
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The Brown's argument isn't that the law is wrong, but that the law doesn't exist.
 
RandFan said:
  • Work to change the system.
  • Become an activist.
  • Protest.
  • Commit civil disobedience.
  • Move.
What about a sociopath who was born into a system that prohibited rape robbery and murder and they had no say in the laws of that system?

Due to the fact that humans are diverse and given that their goals, needs and wants will very often be in conflict then civilization can never be perfectly fair. For humans, utopia is a logical impossibility. At best we can strive for an ideal but we will always fall short.
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Brown is doing exactly that is he not? He is trying to change the system. He is an activist. He is protesting. He is commiting civil disobedience. Plus, he has taken the uniquely American approach of arming himself against an unjust government. Guaranteed in the Constitution, ya know?

Your "Move" part is completely illogical. First, where will he move to and second, why should he move? Why doesn't the rest of society simply leave him alone?

I equate this to the child raised in a religion that they just can't come to believe in. Threaten them, deprive them of freedom, take all their worldly possessions or physically beat them but they just can't force themselves to believe. Some people just can't force themself to believe in the social system they were born into. It isn't like they had a choice. It isn't like they are given any reasonable options. They either conform or they are labelled criminals. Why should believers have a corner on having a place to live and food to eat.

The fact that the only argument people can come up with is "That's just the way it is" demonstrates to me that they are just the blind followers they accuse others of being in other areas.

There is no one right way to live a life but society by nature tries to force everyone to live the same life.

"Hey little boy you can't where others go.
You don't look like they do.

I said 'Hey old man how can you stand to think that way?
Did you really think about it before you made the rule?

He said, 'That's just the way it is.
Somethings will never change.'

Ahh, but don't you believe it."

(Bruce Hornsby)
 
qayak said:
Brown is doing exactly that is he not? He is trying to change the system. He is an activist. He is protesting. He is commiting civil disobedience.
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The Brown's have never said they were trying to change the system. They simply believe there is no law in existence that requires them to pay federal income tax. How can they protest against something they don't believe exists?
 
Alt+F4 said:
The Brown's have never said they were trying to change the system. They simply believe there is no law in existence that requires them to pay federal income tax. How can they protest against something they don't believe exists?
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They are protesting the fact that everyone else believes it and they are forced to live under the misconception.
 
qayak said:
Brown is doing exactly that is he not? He is trying to change the system. He is an activist. He is protesting. He is commiting civil disobedience.
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No, he demonstrably is NOT committing civil disobedience. Please see post #46.

In any event, yeah, so what? You asked a question I gave you an answer. BTW, I asked a question and you didn't answer it. The question about the sociopath was not rhetorical and is important. Please answer it.

Plus, he has taken the uniquely American approach of arming himself against an unjust government. Guaranteed in the Constitution, ya know?
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Does this obviate him from following the law?

I understand your point. However, the Constitution isn't a warrant for anyone to do anything they want. The Constitution didn't create a framework of anarchy. People must follow the rule of law OR suffer the consequence of disobeying the law. It really is quite simple and there is just no mystery or controversy here. The Constitution does not give Brown the right to subvert the law nor does it prevent the government from throwing Mr. Browns butt in jail.

Now, if he wants to sacrifice himself in a vain attempt to overthrow the government or escape his responsibilities then fine. I don't have a problem with the concept of fighting for one's beliefs just understand that there are consequences.

Your "Move" part is completely illogical. First, where will he move to and second, why should he move?
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No, it is not at all illogical. He could move to a place where the rest of society will simply leave him alone. There are such places in this world.

Why doesn't the rest of society simply leave him alone?
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Because it is a society. Society doesn't work if we all play by our own rules.

I equate this to the child raised in a religion that they just can't come to believe in. Threaten them, deprive them of freedom, take all their worldly possessions or physically beat them but they just can't force themselves to believe. Some people just can't force themselves to believe in the social system they were born into. It isn't like they had a choice. It isn't like they are given any reasonable options. They either conform or they are labeled criminals. Why should believers have a corner on having a place to live and food to eat.
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Huh? I'm sorry but I have no idea where you came up with this. I'm truly at a loss.
  • Society wants to be secure so we outlaw rape and murder.
  • Society wants roads, police, and infrastructure so we pass laws to ensure all who will avail themselves of these benefits contribute.
Again, this is not a difficult concept nor is it controversial. You either empower societies to set laws and enforce them or you don't have society. Why is that such a difficult concept?

Now, we can argue about what laws are appropriate and the best way to govern but that discussion has nothing to do with what you are saying.

The fact that the only argument people can come up with is "That's just the way it is" demonstrates to me that they are just the blind followers they accuse others of being in other areas.
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This is a straw man and demonstrably so.
  • I support protest.
  • I strongly support organizing politically and I support activism.
  • I support free speech and speaking out against the government.
  • I urge people to be politically active and seek to shape society.
  • I support civil disobedience (Brown is NOT engaged in civil disobedience, he mocks it).
Your characterization does not represent me or reflect my opinion in the lest. Please don't put words in my mouth or ascribe to me positions that I do not hold.

Let me repeat that.

Please don't put words in my mouth or ascribe to me positions that I do not hold.

There is no one right way to live a life but society by nature tries to force everyone to live the same life.
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Completely irrelevant to the point at hand. I have to say I have no idea where you are coming from.

For a society to function in a cohesive and healthy fashion there are some necessary components.
  • There must be limits to behavior. Murder, rape, robbery, extortion, libel, slander, etc., are harmful to society. Just because a person would like to kill his or her neighbor isn't sufficient license for that person to do so.
  • Society through government, preferably a democratic republic, must have the ability to decide what laws will govern behavior.
  • People must accept the consequences of their actions. If society says you can't urinate on the sidewalk and you urinate in protest you must accept that there are consequences. Now, your protest might lead to a change in the law and therefore the consequences might be worth it but your defense can't be that you were committing civil disobedience and therefore should escape any and all consequences. You can't simply say, "I want to urinate in public why can't everyone just leave me alone?" and seriously expect everyone to shrug their shoulders. This is NOT reasonable.
{irrelevant song lyrics snipped}[/quote]
 
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