Moderated Dowsing By Edge

[EHocking]

...I have found ground less neutral than other spots....

Great! That means there ARE neutral spots that you have found.

Go to the ground that is MORE neutral.

Pick it as a spot to perform The Challenge.

Take The Challenge.

It's been a YEAR.

 

[Tricky]

I need isolation of the target to test but not to mine.

That is total BS. You have said you always found gold when you used your dowsing skills. If you can find scattered amounts of gold dust and nuggets, then you should be able to go to the same location find a large, solid target inches from your dowsing rod with nothing between the target and your rod except a thin layer of paper or glass. Are you going to tell me that "it doesn't work like that?" Clip that to the first three words, and you're right.

Think of it as a clean room.
No interferences no excuses.
All provable with a scale and numbers.

Think of it as edge never finding a room that is clean enough for him.
Think of it as nothing but excuses.
Think of it as failure to ever provide any evidence.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

That is total BS. You have said you always found gold when you used your dowsing skills. If you can find scattered amounts of gold dust and nuggets, then you should be able to go to the same location find a large, solid target inches from your dowsing rod with nothing between the target and your rod except a thin layer of paper or glass. Are you going to tell me that "it doesn't work like that?" Clip that to the first three words, and you're right.



Think of it as edge never finding a room that is clean enough for him.
Think of it as nothing but excuses.
Think of it as failure to ever provide any evidence.

Boy that's harsh.

And true.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

Would a parking lot work?

Or can you dowse, and sense gold/metal/whatever through concrete & asphalt?

 

[catbasket]

Or on an ice shelf? Is there a JREF Antarctica branch?

 

[Spektator]

Or on an ice shelf? Is there a JREF Antarctica branch?

If I recall correctly, once edge said that no spot in Florida was neutral because of the minerals under the ground there--but he never would tell us which minerals under the ground were the problem. That's a good point, though: if the dowsing rod can detect gold in mining country, it should be able to detect ANY kind of gold, whether occurring naturally or placed there for a test.

By the way, my brother the minister let me look up the word "diviner" in one of his huge Bible commentaries. It helpfully gave as definition 3 "one who uses a divining rod." "Divining rod" is in turn described as "a rod or device intended to indicate the presence of water or minerals."

From Micah:

The seers will be ashamed and the diviners disgraced.

 

[edge]

If I recall correctly, once edge said that no spot in Florida was neutral because of the minerals under the ground there--but he never would tell us which minerals under the ground were the problem. That's a good point, though: if the dowsing rod can detect gold in mining country, it should be able to detect ANY kind of gold, whether occurring naturally or placed there for a test.

By the way, my brother the minister let me look up the word "diviner" in one of his huge Bible commentaries. It helpfully gave as definition 3 "one who uses a divining rod." "Divining rod" is in turn described as "a rod or device intended to indicate the presence of water or minerals."

From Micah:

Exactly where in Micah?

What do think I should do?

I can't find a big enough spot there to do the test with all ten contaners in any given area, but I might find one, even there.

Same rule applies here.
Same rule on concrete or asphalt.

What denomination is your brother?

A skeptic invoking the Bible to a believer, something is wrong with this picture?

Tell the truth, why would you do that?

 

[edge]

Evidence , we'll see.

Think of it as edge never finding a room that is clean enough for him.
I'm albe to do that acually.

Palu , what ever.

I don't understand the anger you are having?

 

[Tricky]

Exactly where in Micah?

Michah 3:7

The seers will be ashamed
and the diviners disgraced.
They will all cover their faces
because there is no answer from God.

What do think I should do?

I suppose that depends on whether or not you are a Christian. If you are, then according to your religion, you may be dowsing a path to Hell.

I can't find a big enough spot there to do the test with all ten contaners in any given area, but I might find one, even there.

In the wide outdoors you can't find ten spots without "interference"? How the heck do you ever find gold with that rod?

Same rule applies here.
Same rule on concrete or asphalt.

What rules? You've never given us "rules", at least nothing vaguely consistent. How about on a frozen lake (since a trip to Antarctica is probably out of the question)?

A skeptic invoking the Bible to a believer, something is wrong with this picture?

Tell the truth, why would you do that?

It is a source you might accept, since you don't seem to be able to accept the input of skeptics.

 

[Patejdl]

Frozen lake?? Antarctica?? No way man!!

There's like tons of water in those places. Don't you think the crazy amount of water would interfere with specificaly gold tuned dowsing rod???



Edge, still don't want to use the time left in your life to become a real geologist??

 

[Patejdl]

Conclusion:

Dowsing cannot be tested in the way to be shown working. Maybe it exist or doesn't.
What is sure that it's such a LAME "paranormal effect" (or whatsoever thing) that it never seem to be working positively more than averaged 11 % (or 10?? aaah who gives a heck). Therefore such an effect is absoultely inefective and unusable for the real life world.

It's as effective as using a tenis ball at bowling. Even that looks more effective as dowsing.

So there's really no need to use... even if it exists or not.. it's lame.. no need to use it.. you'll be better off with guessing.

Conclusion conclusion : Let's ignore Edge until he makes a clear logical protocol and then just say YES or NO. And then after testing just say the %. No need to spend any more energy even talking about it.

 

[Spektator]

My brother is a minister in a mainstream Protestant denomination (and has been for twenty years), and we'll leave it at that. And who said I was a religious skeptic, anyway? You want me to truthfully answer the question "Why would I refer to biblical injunctions against diviners?" I wanted to ask you to stop and think about the positions you hold, edge. It seems to me they are contradictory.

Anyway, if the one-container model works, fine, let's go with that. I still think your protocol is unclear. We've tried to help several times, but you say we propose biassed protocols.

Yet you are remarkably unforthcoming on details: How big is your target? "Silver plate, silver dollars, gold," these are all vague. Exactly how big, in inches, would the container have to be to conceal the target? If it's round, what's the diameter? Six inches? Twelve inches? Twenty? If it's rectangular, what are the dimensions of the container top? Four by six inches? Six by ten inches? Help us out a little bit here, edge.

And let's nail down the number of times a target will even appear. Will every run have one in ten?

 

[catbasket]

Taken out of context but, hey.

What do think I should do?

Agree a protocol and take the test.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Lest we forget:

This is the JREF One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge subforum

Edge claims dowsing works, in his case it helps him find gold. He claims he has had more success with his dowsing method than with conventional methods.

He has an incentive of One Million US Dollars to prove his theory, by doing two simple tests under controlled conditions. Total test duration for both: Considerably less than eight hours/a day's work.

This thread represents edge's efforts to prove his claim after he has failed to do so in 2002. He came back claiming willing to be retested.

With the incentive of One Million US Dollars

206 posts by edge.

Chance to participate in a TV show/prove claim in front of big audience: Blown.

No acceptable protocol yet.

Not even for One Million US Dollars.






"Could this be any more obvious?"
[/Chandler Bing]

 

[edge]

Talk about making crap up?

There is no way they would televise the whole test on a TV show at a minimum of 4 hours.
This is the letter I sent Sherry,

Dear Mr. Guska,

Hope this email finds you doing well.

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner.
It took some discussions amongst the production staff to make a decision
whether we can acomodate your request or not within the limited time frame.

After our detailed discussion with JREF members, we've came to a
conclusion that at this point, it is not possible for us to provide you with
the protocal that you'll be satisfied with.

Meanwhile, we're planning to produce series of shows featuring Mr. Randi,
and One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge, so if the timing works out,
we would like to reconsider your test on our show.

Thank you very much for your time and patience.


Sincerely,

Sherry ********
production coordinator
TV ***** Productions
*-**-**-*** ************
******, Tokyo, 181-0013 Japan
phone: **-***-**-****
fax: **-***-**-****


This is what I was requiered to send her before I recevied that letter,

Hi Sherry,
I'm coping and pasting your document here.

Name: Mike Guska aka Edge

Address: P.O.251 Weaverville Ca 96093

Contact number:530-623-3967

Passport number: None

Date of Birth: 2/2/54

Occupation: Carpenter, Cook, Pipe fitter, Air
Conditioning

Your availability to travel to Tokyo, Japan on
6/1/2007 thru 6/5/2007:

Available yes Not Available

Please share with us the following:

What is your paranormal ability?
Dowsing for gold and other metals

How can you demonstrate your ability?
Through mining and possibly the J.R.E.F. test.

How long have you had this ability?
About 20 years.

Where/When do you exercise your ability?
When I want to make extra money and go to the creeks
or rivers.

How often do you exercise your ability?
Once a week, or ten times a week sometimes not for
months and years.
I test it some times in different ways for more proof.
At home and the creek.


I also sent you back some more information along with
some pictures.
This should help you visualize what we do.

The dredge is a 6 inch and that's as big as I have
mined with.
The pan is the smallest tool.
What I don't have is a picture of the sluice box,
with that tool I would be shoveling and running
material, about twenty, 5 gallon buckets with the
sluice box.

There is a lot to know about mining and dowsing.
I could probably do the J.R.E.F.'s test in 3 to 5 days
with the sluice box to prove dowsing works, if
dredging it would take 60 to 70 days and their test
with hidden targets would take 3 to 4 hours.


I was ready as can be.

"After our detailed discussion with JREF members," so what exactly did they say?

What they both knew at that point is the test was to be done out side not in a studio.
JREF should have followed through; it was after that I discovered the way to measure the reaction.
I would have only gone by feel, however they apparently accepted the 60% thinking I would be fooled into doing it in a studio, wrong.
That would have been a repeat of what happened in 1999.
I asked on the phone to do it in a limestone quarry.
The JREF is on a vacation and simply didn't want to work for it is my conclusion as I know they are reading what I say and are aware of what I require per say my original protocol, which they thought I would forget.

Now that 60% is chance all of a sudden.
Lets see what they say; most dowsers can only expect a 10% hit ratio.
They know if they put me in the right set of circumstances I might be blinded by the pomp and ceremony.
Not!
I told She sherry that I would need to get there a couple of days before the JREF team and to find the right spot to do the test in.
That they would have to film the test when they got there and that was all good since they couldn’t show the whole thing anyway on the program, probably segments and they were good with that.

Now I’m waiting to here from JREF still and they’ll probably up the odds some more, watch.
I know they are reading what I say and I told them to.
There’s a good chance they will lose now and are wondering if what I’m saying is true.
It is.
Truth is truth and crap is crap.

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[Spektator]

(snip)
Truth is truth and crap is crap.

And the truth is, as you have been told over and over and over, that looking for gold in a creek is not, and indeed cannot, be a controlled double-blind test (and please don't pretend you don't know what "double-blind" means). The truth that is truth, edge, is that in order to be tested, you have to come up with a protocol for a simple controlled double-blind test--the container test would suffice, but you'll probably never do that.

I grew up having two grandfathers. One had knocked around all over the country and had done a little bit of everything. The other was an immigrant from Germany and worked in the medical field. Both of them taught me things.

Grampa (the first one) took me out gold-panning with him. We were in north Georgia, not far from Dahlonega, where there had been a gold strike in the early 1800s. Without using a dowsing rod, Gramps always came back with a little gold. He showed me where to look in the creek beds, how to use the pan, and lo and behold, even I, at the tender age of seven or eight, found a few little particles of gold. His secret? "I know where to look," he said.

Papa (the second one) always told me "It's important not just to know what you know, but to think about how you know it. You know there are no such things as witches flying on broomsticks, ja? Then tell me how you know that."

I think together the old guys did a good job of giving me some very basic education.

 

[Paulhoff]

I think together the old guys did a good job of giving me some very basic education.

Yes, it is called, drum roll please……….., “Critical Thinking”, something not taught enough in is world and in the U.S.

Paul

 

[EHocking]

Talk about making crap up?
...
I was ready as can be.

Not obvious from THIS thread. You haven't been ready for over a year now - why are you attempting to scapegoat these people?

...
I asked on the phone to do it in a limestone quarry.

So you DO have a location that the Challenge could be carried out.

One problem down, now for the protocol.

...Now I’m waiting to here from JREF still and they’ll probably up the odds some more, watch.

Wrong - the probabilities are purely dependent on your proposed protocol and your expected success rate.

If you say 70%, but the actual success rate required is lower they should inform you - if not, someone here will argue your case. I would for example, since it is one of the prime conditions of The Challenge rules.

Ask them if you are allowed to discuss the protocol here - plenty of people will check that the numbers are good and explain them to you if you feel they are not.

I know they are reading what I say and I told them to.
There’s a good chance they will lose now and are wondering if what I’m saying is true.

No they are not. They are waiting for you to stop dodging and settle a protocol and location for The Challenge.

It is.
Truth is truth and crap is crap.
...

Exactly.

Sort the testing protocol.

Find that limestone quarry - it's been a year...

Pass the test and THEN you can tell JREF to shut up. Calling them cheats and blaming THEM for the delay is disingenuous of you.

Until then, well you said it, crap is crap.

One last question. DO you have a protocol that you would be comfortable with and that JREF have initially accepted or are willing to accept for discussion?

If so. Post it here (or start a new thread here specifically for it) for discussion. Many of us WILL point out what the correct odds for success are, and provide independent proof of the calculations so you can be sure JREF will not cheat you (as you implied above).

 

[edge]

Pass the test and THEN you can tell JREF to shut up. Calling them cheats and blaming THEM for the delay is disingenuous of you.

You all said I wasn't ready, at the time I was willing.
As far as saying they are cheats I never said that I said they know and changed the percentage.
At the time in Japan 60% was the number and now it's 70%.
As far as the protocol it's the same as in 1999, the difference is one spot and the scales, which I had to add in, target will appear only 10 times out of 100.
If you know how they run it what's so hard to understand?

EHocking said,

Not obvious from THIS thread. You haven't been ready for over a year now - why are you attempting to scapegoat these people?
And this,
No they are not. They are waiting for you to stop dodging and settle a protocol and location for The Challenge.

My application has only been in since February.
First the protocol, then the location.
Like I said I may go to them now, as far as a limestone quarry that would probably be ideal but not necessary as I can find a spot any where now, but only one spot at a time.
Not ten spots.
I can't figure how you can't understand this?

They have to say yes not me, and Jeff does read in here, how better to know what their up against.

As you can see by my the post above.

One last question. DO you have a protocol that you would be comfortable with and that JREF have initially accepted or are willing to accept for discussion?

It's not me that's uncomfortable, like I said I assumed that they were comfortable with the first protocol at 60% since that would have been it in Japan.
But now they are not.
So I upped it to 70% and if I hit 90% I would win right away, if I hit 70% the first time if they needed more proof then two more sets of 100 passes with the metals appearing another 20 times is ok with me plus the three could be factored together to get an over all %.

In other words if I hit 70 then 60 then 80 it's still 70%...

How simple can it be then I have to make a decision and hopefully soon on a date.
There's more to than that as you all pointed out, I would if they came here, have to support them financially, to do that here I would have to mine the money which is a possibility, but now with the visual of the scale and what I have learned the day after the let down of Japan is that I can do it in Florida and cover only my expenses.
Things still have to be worked out here in that regard, and it's a month away till I can mine on a scale that will support the operation and the expenses of the two members of the jref team, that includes housing and all that is involved.
You see in Japan it would have been easy to find the right spot at a quarry they must have several.
Most of my testing has proven to me that 60% is doable, and now70% is doable but I expect more.
If it was under 50% then I would say it doesn't prove it so what's the point.
But it shows me that it is provable.

So you DO have a location that the Challenge could be carried out.

Yes I do but it's at Coffee Creek and I can't mine there till Septemeber.
Rules of the owner.
That is a better month to do it in Florida also because of the Heat of the day there, it's much cooler then.

Thanks for offering your help big E.

Pass the test and THEN you can tell JREF to shut up.

That's not my style and not necessary.

 

[colin]

target will appear only 10 times out of 100.

The number of times the target appears should be randomized. The way it is now, you already know that the target probably won't be there.

Do you get a ‘hit’ when you say the target isn’t there?